missb89

So should I just not talk to him at all? Is there no possibility of a friendship? I know it seems crazy to even want one after all that he put me through but I do love him and he doesn't have many friends, none of which are good influences. It it crazy that I am hoping that in a few weeks or months that he'll realize what drinking has lost him and decide to try recovery? I don't know what I am holding on to some hopes.

Learn2Live

You will NEVER understand why he does ANYTHING he does. The alcoholic mind is not rational. You will drive yourself crazy trying to figure things out and just when you think you understand, they will do something that totally blows your mind.

What is your definition of love, Sarah?

What do you mean, "giving up on him?" He is not a project, he is a GROWN man who is not behaving like a GROWN man.

Sarah, there is no right thing to do other than to look out for and provide for yourself and your daughter.

Right. We are just as obsessed with them as they are with the alcohol.

Yes, they often can and do treat us well, but it is not consistent, is it? He is not consistent. Some days he is helping you but other days (most days?) he is dependent and creates havoc and chaos in your life, yes? There are pros and cons to each of our relationships with an alcoholic and you can vacillate between the "good him" and the "bad him" for DECADES. Is that what you really want for yourself?

missb89

I don't know what my definition of love is and maybe I don't know how to truly love myself either. So it isn't worth it to hope that he'll change, should I just not take any of his phone calls and never talk to him again? I don't know how to do that. I feel like I am truly going nuts here. I'm sure this will sound stupid in hind-sight but I don't know how bad his alcoholism is because he only did drink on the weekends and asked during the week but if I said no he'd listen and he never really talked about alcohol out loud, like if he were craving it I would never know, even during the 6 weeks that he did quit drinking he rarely mentioned it.

missb89

He also only drank on the weekends because that was an agreement I pretty much forced him to come to.

missb89

I am also having a hard time believing that he may not care about Ayla because like I said he sober preceeding her birth, and immediately after she was born. He was glowing in the hospital with her, he seemed like a completely different person, genuinely happy. After I gave birth he said it was the most beautiful thing he had ever seen and he couldn't stop gushing about her to people. He says he fell in love with her like his own because he was with me throughout the whole pregnancy and watched her come into this world.

sandrawg

We're not saying anything personal about him. Obviously, we do not know him.

However, we do know...and we know this not just from personal experience, but from many many years research and literature and others experience w/alcoholics and addicts: an active alcoholic and addict is incapable of caring about anything but the drug.

I'm sorry, it's just a symptom of the disease. You are trying so hard to focus on the positive about this guy, and I understand that. I did the same thing. You know where that kind of thinking landed me? Straight in denial-world, and right smack in the middle of a three hour drunken angry tirade where my ex threatened to send me to a mental institution; threw his keys at me; squirted at me with a squirt gun, and I had to call a male friend to come help me out because he was out of control.

Oh, and a nice round of verbal abuse to boot.

Honey, alcoholism is progressive. It only gets worse. If you continue to live in denial, you're gonna do what you've always done and in al-anon, we say "you'll get what you've always gotten."

Speaking of al-anon, I highly suggest you go to a meeting. You will find a lot of support and knowledge there. You'll be able to speak face to face with people who know what you're going through.

You see, he's not the only one with the disease. You're as addicted to him, as he is to alcohol. And it's destroying you both. I'm just saying that, straight up, because I know it's true about me as well. I was addicted to my ex, and it caused me great harm. The hole in my wall from when he slammed his kayboard against it, attests to this. My damaged psyche from all the verbal abuse attests to this.

My lingering inability to trust men, attests to this.

The 3 yrs I wasted with him off and on, attests to this.

I could go on and on but you get the idea.

chicory

""It's not his baby, right? He has no rights to her. Plus I really wouldn't want my baby around an alcoholic. ""
Sandrawg, that is an excellent point! I say, give your baby girl the chance to have a life not surrounded by alcoholics or addicts, and if it just you and her, so be it! at least she will know peace, and happy,safe days. That is what it's all about- peace, love and smiles.
Nuff time wasted- if you add in a father, make sure that it is one who will treasure and protect her and you, for a lifetime.

Thumper

You do not owe him anything. It doesn't matter if he drank once a week, every hour, or not at all. Instead of listening to him, keep following your intuition about what is best for you. Verbalize what it is your gut is telling you. Maybe even right it down. It is hard for me to change my thinking patterns if I don't have words to put with my new feelings or intuitions. It was even harder when my xah kept coming at me with his words - which were marinating in emotional manipulation. I'm not a big fan of journaling but I did spend time writing some things down when I was at the point you are at now. It helped me to be able to have words in my head for what my gut was trying to tell me.

As far as him and the baby, what will be best for her? Throught out her life? This is not a time to get side tracked by feeling sorry for him. Play the tape all the way through. Alcoholism is progressive. It is not your job to cushion his sadness or take care of his emotional being. That is HIS job. Your job is to take care of *your* emotional being - and now that of your baby.

We each find our own way but I could not be friends with my xah. I hope that we will eventually have an easier relationship then we have now but I keep our communication strictly limited to the kids. I make small talk when I drop the kids off at his house and he is fine, but he can't leave my driveway fast enough. Whatever. I think he just wants me to get all flustered, worry about him, worry about what I have done wrong to cause him distress, and chase after him to do whatever it takes to make it all alright for him - because that dynamic worked for years.

I know in my soul that my only hope, and the best chance for my kids to have a healthy childhood, is to keep my life seperate from his. I will protect that by keeping our communciation to the necessities regarding the kids. ETA: I say that with great conviction now. It keeps me strong in the no-contact department especailly when my co-dependent self wants to be 'nice'. I have that conviction now. I wanted to let you know that when I was at the point that you are at now, I did not have that conviction. It is so hard to think straight and trust ourselves when we are in the middle of it but I will say - the clarity came fast once I had a little space and distance. Keep making the next right decision, trust the process, and give yourself a real gift. The gift of some time and space. Even if you go no contact for a month - that will help. Nothing is lost after a month. You don't have to be afraid of mistakes. We can always change our minds - the real trick is figuring out what we know.

missb89

So the best solution is just to have no contact with him at all? I can swallow this but it will be so so very hard seeing as how I am practially waiting for the phone to ring because I want to believe that he needs me, and that in just a matter of minutes he'll reach his epiphany.

I guess when he calls to try to arrange a time to see Ayla tomorrow I am going to have to explain to him that this cannot and will not work. However, I do want to apologize to him about the way that I tried to make him quit though, and all the nasty, degrading things that I said to him. I truly was a monster as well, and I am ashamed of myself for it now. I want him to know that I DO love him and that I wish the best for him and that I truly hope one day he'll find the strength and realization to quit but that I cannot sit by and be a part of it anymore. I do not want to be angry anymore. As I'm writing this I am bawling my eyes out because I cannot imagine my life without him, even if it was sometimes miserable, I feel a tremendoius loss.

Thumper

It is normal to feel a loss. There is a loss of a chunk of your life, of a man that you shared things witih and, for me, the biggest loss of all was the loss of the dream I had of what I wanted - the picture I had in my head - the hope.

Walk through it. You can't go around it.

No contact is all that would work for me. I was a little obsessed at first two. My xah contacted me constantly. In some ways that made it harder because I had to not respond but in some ways I think it was easier because if I waited long enough - the nice correspondence was always followed up by something mean.

I have also behaved in a way that I am sorry for. I quit al-anon when I moved because of the travel time etc. I will go back as soon as I can make it work. Have you gone to al-anon? They have a 12 step program as well and you'll work through some of these feelings as well as the step where you make amends. The book 'Co Dependant No More' was also a great thing to read, so I would recommend that too.

missb89

No I havent been to Alanon but I definitely want to.

missb89

By the way I wanted to thank everyone for their support and comments, even if a lot of things are hard to hear it needs to be said, thank you so much.

sandrawg

If and when he has his epiphany, he knows how to reach you.

Of course, I think apologizing is good for the soul. We've all done things we're not proud of when in the tumult of this disease. Out of desperation...out of legitimate anger...out of feeling frustrated and tired.

I wish I had a nickle for all the tears we have all cried for the people we've lost to this horrible disease. I'd be a wealthy woman. And I'd probably donate the bulk of it to some rehab organization.

**{hugs}} we're here for you.

Freedom1990

In addition to Alanon, check and see if there are any ACoA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) meetings in your area.

Since you have an actively alcoholic father, and were raised in that environment, I think ACoA would help too.

missb89

He called and I let him know that we won't be visiting. He tried to lure me into coming to talk about going to counseling. He said if they tell him theres something wrong that he will fix it. He also told me it takes two people to make a relationship work and that I'm giving up, and that Ayla & I will always have his heart. I apologized for my past anger, told him I loved him, but that it takes one person to admit responsibilty and chose their path. I wished him the best and still am left with a broken heart, but at least I said what was needed.

sandrawg

OMG, heard that one before. I actually DID go to my ex's therapist, who told him, "ok, try moderation management, but you have to be prepared that it may not work, and formulate a plan for if it doesn't."

Despite the fact that my ex got excessively drunk several times after that, and couldn't stay away from the bar, he still will not admit the experiment failed. It was a total waste of time.

Kudos to you, for staying strong.

Paintbaby

He really tried to lay the manipulation on you there. My AH has said the same things to me, so many times. Funny how they always talk about a relationship needing two people to work--but they NEVER, EVER give a thought to the behaviours and choices THEY make that lead to us giving up hope and tossing in the towel in the first place. Oh NO! Mustn't have any self-reflection whatsoever! Just lay on the guilt-inducing heartwarming platitudes.

Blows my mind every time, the complete and utter selfishness and lack of self-awareness. I swear these guys all follow the same script. I know it hurts now, but you and your daughter are better off without this utter madness in your life. And if you think you're hurting now, give it a few more years of this same crazy-making merry go-round, when you have bitterness to add to the mix. Is your life meant for this? Is your daughter's?

Next time he tries to tug at your heartstrings, tell him what I told my AH. "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t."

missb89

What makes them want to manipulate? Do they enjoy hurting us? Do they consciously decide to manipulate or is it just second nature and done without any thought?

Paintbaby

They manipulate so they can continue to drink in peace, and still keep the enabler close at hand. My husband sure had it comfortable--a lovely home to live in, gourmet meals, a nice warm bed and lots of sex. His false promises kept me exactly where he wanted me for 2 and a half years. Until I wised up, and saw that the actions weren't matching all the lovely promises. And we kept having the same fights about his drinking. Manipulation is a survival tactic for them----and it is ALL about them. There is nothing more selfish than addiction, and there is no such thing as a selfless addict. Anyone who gets in the way of the booze gets mown down like a dog in the street.

They don't want the buzzkill of, you know, real life and the pain they are causing others to harsh on their mellow. And they chose us codies because they know exactly what to say to keep us wound up in stupid hope, and keep us there as a nice soft place to land. I think the addiction makes the manipulation second nature. Either way, it's a pretty gross stew.

missb89

My patience and ability to be nice and detach is really starting to waver. His mother will not stop harassing me. She's calling my phone telling me how I'm pushing him over the edge, and I need to be nice to him he cannot take it. Telling me I'm an alcoholic because I enjoy a drink every once in a while. Telling me I'm not a doctor and I can't possibly know his psychology. She asked what she should do for him and I told her she should kick him out and she thought I was crazy and cruel. She is also an active alcoholic and ex-crack user (as is he.). I know how to pick em', right?

Then just an hour ago he calls from work (he works for my uncle's farm,) he asks if I'll take him to the doctor because he's having panic attacks and breaking out in "purple spots." I told him no and he said I'll call your dad then, he's supposed to bring me some of my stuff. So now my dad (whose arms aren't working properly because he's had two bone fusion surgeries in the past year,) is going to take him his things that he purposely left here and take him to the bus stop so he can go to "the doctor."