Obladi

I read this as the line in "Hook" where one of the Lost Boys says to Peter Pan, "Oh, there you are!"
But maybe you meant, "You went there, so there you are."
Both.

Only now I understand this idea of not really knowing who I am. While I continue to know that I know who I am, I am also curious about how all of this newfound confidence-not-bravado is going to play out. It feels pretty great.

dwtbd

I’m an admitted double entendre-er

It’s nice to see you type out “ it feels pretty great”, (that’s a single entendre there)

Obladi

How odd - when I wanted to quote this using my own inputted html, it automatically broke the quote into two paragraphs. hm

As a grown-up, I've always known that the choice was possible, but it seemed impossible to discern whether leaving was "best." Didn't everyone fight with their spouse on a regular basis? Aren't all men manipulative in relationships with their female partners? Wasn't I indeed wrong and stupid in how to conduct myself so therefore couldn't be trusted to make these decisions? Wasn't I the common denominator in all of these troubles? Feeling insecure and left out by virtue of being left out is hard enough. Feeling insecure and understanding there is a reason within me for being "other" is even worse.

No, Daniel hasn't helped me to understand when running or staying is most appropriate. No, that's wrong - he has, but not in a specific way. The only thing he's ever said with authority about my choices is that it's better for me to not drink. Everything else he does is focused on understanding how I perceive situations with other people and helping me to understand my reactions to those people and circumstances. The conclusions about what to "do" are up to me. Sometimes he is surprised in a pleasant way, other times he's very cautiously neutral. The one time he freaked out was about a month ago when I was ready to just quit the sober home and quit my sponsor all at the same time. I guess in that way he helped me, but not in the way he might have intended if he wasn't so shocked. Going into that conversation, I knew that my inclination was to run, but I had in fact quite deliberately not followed through on that impulse. He helped me by becoming alarmed and acting just like a human being who cares about me. The execution was unpleasant, but the sentiment was important. He helped me by scheduling a second discussion to talk about what had happened in that session and by committing (again) to be as straightforward with me as he can be.

To be fair, it's been very difficult to piece together what my brain was up to. I think over my lifetime I'd woven a very elaborate web of coping mechanisms that served to keep me functioning but were also fertile ground for development of the AV. Daniel's been a part of the effort to supportively untangle that knotted mess, as have many of you fine folks. The really important lesson I've learned (among many) is it is incredibly dangerous for me to ignore or disregard my feelings, especially when I literally feel them. Daniel taught me when we first met to describe my feelings by describing the physical sensation. His patience waiting for the penny to drop has been admirable. Learning that skill (finally!) has put a critical piece of foundation in place for me.

Bill tells us that for most alcoholics, resentment is the number one offender in the category of moral wrongs that will destroy us. I've always read the list of additional categories of offense in a negative light, as being equal contributors to the fact that I am basically wrong/bad/defective in a very real and essential way. This view that the root of my problems is founded in moral failing followed the twisty path in my psyche to reinforce my AV's tactical voice. Daniel's value to me has been his steadfast attitude that I am a wonderful person with a horrible problem and that we could figure it out together. That confidence in me, that partnership and affirmation through thick n thin has taught me how to build a balanced and trusting relationship.

I was going to say there haven't been any occasions where I've literally needed to run away since knowing Daniel, but of course there was this last stint in rehab. I think everything I learned through my experiences, through my relationships here on SR and other people who care about me, and through the work I've done with Daniel over the years is what helped me to finally just know that run to rehab was the very best worst choice I had. We'll never know for sure, but I believe you all literally helped save my life. That's the best kind of Not Getting Out there is, eh?

Fusion

I've found this phrase helpful, O: "feelings aren't facts". Many of my feelings are based upon history, and no longer relevant, just old pre-programming. For example, I was bullied at school by a red-headed girl. Every time I see a red-headed person...I want to run - get out. The irony is, when I realised this behaviour a few of years ago, I ignored the aversive feelings, and now, one of my friends, has red hair!

fini

O, i have read that part about resentment being the number one offender a good many times.
because resentment is a place i know well.
number one “offender” of or to what??.
finally, it clicked: i had to keep reading the previous paragraph: resentment is the number one offender of manifestation of self.
somehow, that made a huge difference to me. and no, i can’t articulate that.
maybe it relates to your “moral wrong”. “manifestation of self” is neutral to me.

Grymt

Self-cherishing is a deeply clung to tendency. Whenever that which is defined as self is thought/felt to be threatened a defensive posture is adopted. This manifests as rezentment.

Obladi

First, we searched out the flaws in our make-up which caused our failure. Being convinced that self, manifested in various ways, was what had defeated us, we considered its common manifestations.

Resentment is the "number one offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stems all forms of spiritual disease...

Sounds pretty morally negative to me.

Obladi

It may manifest as resentment, but this is not universally true. Some manifest differently.

(Good to see you G - I missed you. )

Grymt

Hey. Good to see you still kicking . Yes you're right, it may manifest differently but when it does manifest as resentment almost invariably it's due to an imperilled self-cherishing. Most difficult experoences are in the final analysis but that's for another day, methinks.

Dropsie

two quick thoughts -- to Tatsy, my guru lady often asks me "do you still need that?", which I find helps in making me think about the fact that my feelings are generally not created by today, but by other days.

I am not convinced about the resentment thing. I do not think that resentment is the main source of my dis-ease, rather it is the other things I listed. Not saying the resentment does not contribute, it does, but it is not the queen of the prom. But I do agree with G that they all involve too little self cherishing and looking to others for validation.

I love that line from the movie The Holiday that we have to be the star of our own movie -- kind of sums it up for me

xx

Obladi

Whoa, Drops!

I thought Grymt was alluding to too much self-cherishing as opposed to too little. But knowing our Zen Friend, I suspect he'd avoid labeling anything with that judgy "too" word. G, please elaborate.

What you say/feel, Drops, is more in alignment with how it feels or felt to me. I was so convinced that I was fundamentally a wrong person that all confidence in my wonderfulness was externally generated. Looks, competency in my work, relationships with the cool kids... in short, if you told me I was terrific and provided some tangible evidence to back up your claim, I'd believe it. But on the inside, though I knew I was "deserving" of love, I never quite bought that.

I think each of my daughters has responded to my heartfelt statement, "You are a wonderful human being," with "You have to say that - you're my mom." I never said that out of obligation, but I get the sentiment. Any time I've tried the self-affirmation thing, I absolutely could not stand how false it was. Sort of the same thing.

That reminds me - I need to go find my affirmations from rehab 2 and hang them up somewhere!

Fusion

Brilliant post, Drops, wish I knew your guru lady, because she's very wise. I love all of the above too, I also think you're very wise, Drops, hugs x.

Grymt

I still judge. There is an I that cherishes its existence to the detriment of other beings. I'm attached to 'my' opinions to the point that I'll rather defend them than acknowledge their falsity.
That's an instinctive tendency of little value.
To live in the now moment means training to recognise truth untainted by pre-judice.
Letting go of the pre-judice goes hand in hand with recognising when self-cherishing raises its head.

I know all that is counterintuitive in a world that at its core cherishes the self.

"Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I
—I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."

Dropsie

For me, there is a huge difference between true self love and ego.

For myself and most folks I know, especially women, the self love thing can use some improvement and that ego is actually the opposite of self love.

Grymt

It seems this is a matter of semantics. You are correct. There is great value in taking good, kind, loving, friendly care for ones self and other beings. At the same time that which one thinks of as self, or I, me, mine is blurred. A newborn infant feels about mom as self and experiences a (necessary) identity crisis when the day comes and mom is found to be not-self. Likewise my experience is vastly different when my friends car breaks down as opposed to when my car breaks down. When a stranger dies and when my child dies. This intense attachment to things that 'belong to me' or 'are part of me' is experienced when that link is threatened. It's irrational. It would not surprise me if it's a teaching more applicable to men. Perhaps particularly 'wasp's, nevertheless there is a distinction in contemplating self, ego and mine.

Obladi

It is indeed semantics. But words are important. A child remains part of their mother even after they discover they are separate from their mother. I have a bond with my mom that's different than any other, and would remain so regardless of whether we were close or not. Same goes for the bond I have with my children. They are not my children, but they will always be a part of me and I will always be a part of them. Because we have feelings and emotions. Irrational? Sure, in a mechanical view of the cycle of life, it's not rational. It doesn't matter any "more" whether something terrible happens to you (who I care about) or the man down the road (who I know nothing about). But it matters more to me, the essential me that should be nurtured and has been nurtured by you. And it matters to you, because you also need to be nurtured and have hopefully been nurtured in some way by me.

The problem of attachment isn't being part of - that's the attachment we all strive for, the healthy one that nourishes all of us. The problem of attachment is ownership - that what you do somehow reflects on me or steals something essential from me (like my pride or my self-esteem); which are really all the same thing. Attachment is not, in and of itself, bad or good. Connection, belonging between healthy human beings who truly love themselves and continue to do so in each others' company - that is extraordinarily good.

I agree that men tend to be more externally focused, and seek self outside of themselves in more material ways. But plenty of women do that too. I think the wonderful women you know here have in large part really struggled with what we found within ourselves, the hurt that was inflicted by trying to "be" who we were taught we were supposed to be. Either way you slice it, it's ego. But the hard-ass "you're just a big selfish nothing" works in opposite directions for the two extremes. It seems to somehow help men to find what's really important and prevent women from doing the same. (I speak in grossly general terms here, as our maleness or femaleness in the way I'm describing isn't necessarily aligned with gender.)

Grymt

I think this is an example of harmless non sequiteurs. It's not a matter of potatoes and pota'toes, but rather a bit like apples and oranges. Both taste good, are good, but they are different. That's all. No reason to think 'disagreement' or 'argument'.

Obladi

Huhn, and here I thought I was responding to your thoughts with thoughts of my own. I don't follow how this is a non-sequitur unless you're commenting on the entire discussion?

In any event, disagreement can signal a different perspective of the very same apple and certainly doesn't necessarily add up to argument.

I am still trying to wrap my head around your contention that attachment to people is irrational. What do we gain by becoming rational in this regard? (I'm assuming that 'Irrational' is an undesirable attribute in your view.

Grymt

Different perspective, same apple - that works for me.

Ok, there is good attachment and bad attachment. Rational and irrational.
There are also 'mundane' or conventional truths and there are ultimate truths that seem counterintuitive and contradictory to the more conventional ones. The conventional ones are true and useful but may need to be discarded at some point.

For example.
Ownership. Do we really own anything? What about when we die. Is there anything that we have thought of as owned that we can take with us. Is there anything that we think of as ours that hasn't been in the posession of something else before. Is there anything that someone or some event cannot take away from us. Fire, weather, decomposition, theft, loss. Is there anything that is ours. Conventionally.? Arguably so. Ultimately? Hmmm...
How many parents have not heard some variant of 'you're not the boss of me!.' from the mouths of 'their' babes. Ultimately are we even the bosses of ourselves.? If we really were what are we doing here.? Trying to be bosses of our addictions.?

The path less often taken. The one that makes all the difference is mere observation of the continual flux of supposed realities. Being in the present moment as it happens to be, moment to moment, letting go.

Obladi

You'll get no argument from me there.