courage2

The focus on one member sounds like a Mao-ist struggle session to me. AA calls it taking someone else's inventory. Didn't the house owner say "Some other people would have just walked out, and have"?

Obladi

Thanks for that terminology, Courage. I don't think I've ever learned of maoist struggle sessions before, so I looked it up. Of course, it wasn't as bad as that, but it was emotionally taxing. Brought up all of these feelings of being wrong, not fitting in, being gross, being a loser - all of that grade school stuff. I think it's that history that informs my kicking and screaming and really deep hurt when someone labels me. "You are _____" feels unbelievably intrusive to me. It's disorienting, too, because I've believed it. Believed people when they told me about my own horribleness - ascribing who I am to how they perceive me.

Yes, this is how I understand "taking someone else's inventory" as well. But clearly these two women don't understand that. I think their mission is to ... I wagoing to guess, but I really would only be hypothesizing. And also, like I said, I really don't think they actually had thought through their motivations and desired outcomes

Correct on point 1. Agreed on point 2. Part of the "plan?" Perhaps - but whose plan? I mean, yeah - one of the skills of living sober is learning to deal with upsets, sitting with the discomfort and all that. By no means do I think that was their intent for me - to teach me a lesson in tolerating pain. I really don't know, but it seemed more like "you have this problem, so we're going to have everyone testify to you having that problem." I'm willing to buy that this experience is part of the larger "order" that Cos was talking about. In rehab, I finally had that striking realization that other people's issues are really not "about" me. Maybe this was a test, or further reinforcement of that idea so that instead of just "realizing," I actually apply that lesson to grow into "knowing" or "being convinced" that other people's perceptions are no proof of who I am (or am not).

Like Courage said, I know who I am. It's long past time to question my own identity. I actually do know who I am.

Fusion

Amen, O, there's your power.
I realise I've said this previously, but I credit my new lifetime sober decision (I know...but my previous vow was a dress rehearsal, absent the new mindset) to the incorporation into my psyche of the following:
"I AM completely independent of the good or bad opinions of others."
Having spent decades being sensitive to, and being emotionally, detrimentally, buffeted around by other's words and actions (and my perception of them I'm now impervious. It's liberating, and if it makes me a sociopath, so be it.

Obladi

When I talked with Mom about the house meeting, I told her it was what she would call a "lemon squeeze." A little online research today tells me this was (and in some rare parts still is) a sorority thing. The young women would all get together to tell each other about themselves. The way Mom described it was as a horrible hen-pecking kind of exercise. I remember this from decades ago, so it really made an impression on me.

So I've been thinking about what to "do" if one of these lemon squeezes happens again. And I don't know. So I'm going to enlist the help of my therapist and my sponsor. I 100% anticipate that they will both say, "don't ever do that again." Or something to that effect. Then I will be appropriately armed to say, "I'm sorry, but both my sponsor and my therapist have told me that I cannot participate in a discussion like this (unless something?)."

That's my idea anyway. I'll ask them what they advise I do and take it from there.

Obladi

lol, Tats

Fusion

Thanks for the emoji, I had to look the tool expression up, then it made me giggle, O! Good to see you've retained a sense of humour in that eerrrmmm, I shall simply call it a house.

Hawkeye13

I think lemon squeeze does capture the pecking orderness of the whole thing.
I am glad you are wringing some good out of it, but frankly, these people are short term catalyst and while it is important to work out some social complexities, this all just too complex.
Meanwhile, you are able to open your own hood and look inside and try to fix the problem on your issues, but remember that this is a sober house.
These folks have plenty of their own issues and seem a reluctant to open their own hoods for motive.
Perhaps this is because they can shift the focus to your issues, instead of grappling with their own?
This is a stepping stone for you to get back home on solid sober footing. Look at the scenery and gain some insight into local culture, which helps to process your own, but beware going native.
These guys seem to have cannibalistic tendencies. . .

Obladi

Had an argument with middlest entirely over text the last few days. Was gonna tell you the whole thing, but basically the deal is that I am so self-centered that I always bring the focus back to me and I need to reflect on that. If this misunderstanding keeps happening with people in my life, that points to me as the common denominator. I responded that I had been reflecting and I understood and wouldn't she please talk with me so I could hear her out? Nope, not happening, nosir. I was ridiculous, texting, calling, texting. She finally said, "Talk to someone else." And I responded that I was arguing with her, so wanted to talk with her. That last sentence (and sentiment) was my finest, I think. No, I'm not going to go crying to other people to work out this thing with you. I want to talk with you. I did text my apologies for having made such a bloomin' mess of everything and understood her patience had run out. So now I will just figuratively sit still with her.

I had an anxiety attack yesterday that started at the grocery store when an ad played overhead about Mother's Day being Sunday. Funny because it's really not a big deal to me. But I thought, "I probably won't hear from middlest," and that was sort of a knife in my heart. "Well, you did this O. You're going to have to live with it." Took my prn anxiety medication when I got home and then kept nodding off during the 8pm meeting. I'm always sleepy by then lately, but whoa! Hopefully I won't suffer any consequences for this (none thus far), but What Ever.

I've got a sneaking suspicion that eldest has been staying at my house. When I asked her last week she said she has fallen asleep on the couch a few times... So I think I know why I've been procrastinating so obstinately about going to cut my grass. I think I'm worried she'll be there, potentially drinking, and I'll have to decide what to "do" about her. Which is send her home and take the key. But if she's drinking, then I have to figure out how to get her home. Guess I could put her in my car and she can make her own way back to get her car when she sobers up. Even if she's sober, she still needs to go home. But hey, who knows? Maybe I'll go there and she actually won't have taken up residence. We shall see. Maybe I'll take someone with me, like my sponsor...

Things have been ok in the house for the last couple of days, though I still am being very cautious about what comes out of my mouth and will continue to be that way. House Manager mentioned last night that we were going to have a group conversation to tell this new woman how we felt. Not sure what the issue is, but I gather it has something to do with her talking on the phone, perhaps loudly? Don't know. Fortunately, that group thing did NOT happen, and I overheard HM speaking with another woman this morning - sounds like maybe the other woman's much more low key intervention might suffice. Lordy, I hope so. Because it's making me very anxious even to write about this. I definitely need to get my sponsor's input before this comes up again. We were going to talk yesterday, but her nap and my sleepiness interfered with that plan Today...

I absolutely will not go native, Hawk. I don't have it in me to be like these women, which is part of the root "problem," if you will. I don't kvetch about people in real life, certainly not socially. I will ask for advice on occasion from someone I consider to have good counsel or authority (my therapist or my boss, respectively). But doing this lemon squeeze thing, whether the person is in or out of the room, seems just wrong to me. Not that I'm a saint by any means, but I think because I was the target of really horrible bullying and so this labeling of someone else as a group exercise is just unthinkable.

Caveats to the above: I talk about lots of stuff with y'all that I don't talk about with anyone else aside from my therapist. Including people. Because I think it's "safe" to put it out there and get your input. It helps me with perspective in more ways than one. The one bad habit I have had in real life in this area realm though, is talking about my trouble with one of the kids with another one (or two) of them. That's not happening any more, and hasn't since... I don't know, maybe a year ago when one of them pointed out that I was wrong to share information about them with each other. I mean, I'll say loving and hopefully insightful things...

I feel like there was something else I wanted to write about but I'm forgetting right now...

fini

"Had an argument with middlest entirely over text the last few days. Was gonna tell you the whole thing, but basically the deal is that I am so self-centered that I always bring the focus back to me and I need to reflect on that. If this misunderstanding keeps happening with people in my life, that points to me as the common denominator. I responded that I had been reflecting and I understood and wouldn't she please talk with me so I could hear her out? Nope, not happening, nosir. I was ridiculous, texting, calling, texting. She finally said, "Talk to someone else." And I responded that I was arguing with her, so wanted to talk with her. That last sentence (and sentiment) was my finest, I think. No, I'm not going to go crying to other people to work out this thing with you. I want to talk with you. I did text my apologies for having made such a bloomin' mess of everything and understood her patience had run out. So now I will just figuratively sit still with her." this is painful stuff, and i have been there, in various ways and on various "sides". i cannot "read" whether you are being sarcastic about your finest sentence...? in light of what she keeps saying to you, i would imagine that she will see the finest sentence as also being about you and what you want. what happens sometimes with my kids and me is that we alone cannot work things out by ourselves, as we have well-established ruts of conversation that we get stuck in, ruts of non-hearing, or of wanting the other to understand us so badly that THAT is what it becomes rather than real dialogue. in those instances, i find speaking with someone else about our difficulties really useful. it's not about going crying to people but to get a different perspective from someone i trust, someone who doesn't have an immediate stake in this, someone not personally involved in any of the drama.
often, someone like that can help me see what i have been unable to while embroiled in whatever. and they can often help by sharing a different approach, a different tool, so to speak, to start getting out of the rutted tracks.

Fusion

O, you're her mother. I can't imagine how troubled I'd feel, if it was my mother drinking. and me, looking on. Maybe, cut her some slack?
Although I know you're not drinking now, but you're in a Sober Living House, and perhaps that takes some rationalising for your daughter, that you can't live at home and not drink, that you have to live in a regimented environment?.She may be hurt, I know I'd be hurt if I was the daughter, and not the drinker, I'd feel as though I wasn't good enough, for you to remain sober. Just saying.

Obladi

Yes, of course she's upset with me. That's healthy for her. It's just painful to me. Of course I want what I want when I want it. Doesn't mean I get it.

I want her to know I'm internalizing as she is so certain that I am not. But I sure can't blame her for not wanting to hear it. How many times have I dashed her hopes? I was wrong to try to make her listen to my rebuttals. It's something I need to practice, just shutting up. As much as humanly possible. Years of bad habits are hard to undo.

Tats, she wanted me to come here. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about rationalizing. And yes, of course I need to cut her some slack. I'm sorry that didn't come through in my original post.

Cosima11

Sorry for not coming back to this sooner, I’ve been trying to be on a verbal fast too.. But it’s definitely about belonging. I've been going against the grain trying to make myself fit into a place with people I frankly can't always relate to (demographically speaking). Add to that I had no original purpose for being there or built in sense of community of any kind (work, school, etc.) and my attempts at having a social life have just been comical sometimes. Yet it became home in some ways and allowed me to go through the metamorphosis of sobriety without too many external influences.Â
This definitely isn’t what I had planned but I’m glad I made this trip, I’m feeling much less trapped in a bubble.. Now if I could just find a way to bring some of the resources and mindset from here to there I know good things can still happen.
Also sorry things are rough with your daughters, I think it’ll take time with middlest and her emotions won’t always be rational. The house drama seems a bit ridiculous as well.. But just think if you stay the course and make it through this first year you’ll never have to be in this same position ever again. Although I know relationships can take longer to mend it’ll get easier as you gradually build trust..Â

fini

and oh O, i three times edited my post in three different ways to have breaks between paragraphs.
just want you to know that i would not impose one solid block of words on you or anyone.
in the edited window it looked, each time, like it had worked, but then the end result clearly did not.

Obladi

fini, It's all good. I had to read several times to make sure I got your meaning, but that's not unusual even with line breaks.

In earlier posts after this formatting calamity hit SR, I used ellipses to delineate line breaks. That allowed me to edit without creating a mess, but it was such a fussy exercise I abandoned it for the New Desktop skin. That has its own idiosyncrasies, such as not allowing me to edit At All after posting (which I almost always want to do). But it looks ok. Maybe it's making me write more carefully, I dunno. It's definitely an exercise in something.

Like this - good example of edit-worthy. "Doesn't mean I get it" was intended to mean I don't get what I want just because I want it," but you could also read it as "I don't understand." I actually do (understand).

Anyhow, no worries fini.

p.s. I think I may have been able to edit?!?

Obladi

Oo, I was able to edit!!
O happy day.

Obladi

Thanks, Cos. No apologies necessary, I get it (understand ).

I've no doubt you'll find your way, as will I. I, for one, am glad we're on it together. (I just had an image of you ahead of me on the Appalachian trail by just a day or so now. Can't wait til I'm able to catch up!

Fusion

Hi O, so, as I've read your threads for quite some time, you manage to live, and work, soberly, but when someone disagrees with you at work, you have feelings and thoughts that suggest drinking as a release, a solution, and so you drink.
So, reading your thread, I see you thrown into situations at rehab and sober living, which are not dissimilar, in fact, from my standpoint, they are worse. But you haven't drank on the back of it. Do you know why? Because one day, you need to leave sober living, armed with a new mindset.

courage2

What I did and still do and praise the lord it got me through bad times. I crowd-sourced every hard choice through SR, AA, and anybody else who'd listen. You all always help me understand, sometimes just plain make problems go away, sometimes give me the answer that suits and the expert authority to cite when I have to justify my decision. "Well Hawkeye and O say...." so it must be right!

Obladi

Hey, Tats. So first off, your summation of what has led me to drink for at least the last couple of years is a gross oversimplification. But that's ok - you don't need to understand - I do. At least to the extent I can ever hope to understand. Perhaps more will be disclosed in time.

Isn't it great?
I have not decided to drink.
I pretty much haven't even needed to decide not to drink.
I'm just not doing it.

I'm not sure if I know why, but maybe this is an instance where I don't need to understand completely. If I were to guess, the "why" is due to a whole confluence of events, not least of which is the belief that I am enough, that I am not less than anyone else and trying to "prove" it was only making things worse. As Courage said, I know who I am. But man, did it take me a long time to accept and embrace that. Clearly, it's still something I need to work at. And I need to work at reminding myself that I'm not an easy person to "get" for the ordinary bear. To know me is to love me, usually, but the majority of people don't have the time or energy. And that's perfectly ok! I don't aspire to be a social butterfly - I just want to be known. Brene Brown's lesson that I should only disclose myself to people who are worthy finally sank in. I don't become worthy by showing you who I am - you become worthy by showing me who you are. (This doesn't feel nearly as snooty as it sounds when I write it - it feels... like I value myself. As we all should value ourselves.)

As I've said before, living in this house is quite literally a physical manifestation of my intent. I eat, sleep, dream, think, suffer, learn, work and exist pretty much in the confines of this house and the walks I take almost daily. I'm committed. I believe in myself. I'm learning to be vulnerable in the "right" way and be reserved when there is no reason to expose myself to the very real possibility of being misunderstood. With the help of the fine people here on SR, I've finally gotten to the place that I understand that frickin passage on page 417 in a way that makes sense to me - and understanding it helps me to let go of the frickin bit. I've learned that when I'm bothered by something, it's often that (1) I truly do not understand and/or (2) I'm harboring fear in one form or another.

That last part - the part about fear - is my big reveal of the week. It wasn't until I understood that disturbance within me means there is something to examine within me (whether the disturbance was "justified" or not!) that I looked at that lifelong fear of being "less than" and "wrong" as truly crippling. And seeing it as such has worked with any number of other teachings/learnings/contemplations/meditations to... I dunno, neutralize it? Isolate it? Not sure how to describe it - it's like I have a very healthy amount of respect for how screwed up I've been emotionally, an acceptance that this stuff is real and I need to treat it like the toxic waste that it is. I can't just discover it in the barrel and pull it out bare-handed to get rid of it - because it's toxic! And pouring alcohol on it sure doesn't work - that just causes a flare-up.

I don't know, Tats.

What's gonna work when I go home? I'm going to know when I'm ready - I won't need to ask anyone if it's ok. But I will; I'll ask people who understand me, who are worthy of my trust and don't need me to be their mom. I'm going to stay the course, doing all of the things, basic basic things that need to be done. Eat, sleep, go to work and put in an honest day every day, go to meetings, take a walk, take my medications. Write and think and meditate and pray in my weird disjointed wonderful way. I'm going to continue acting like it really matters that I stay sober.

I don't know. I'm not ready to go home yet.

Obladi

Nice! That's what I've been doing for years now, narrowing my field of experts to those who are truly outstanding in their respective patures (sometimes to be found in Cow's green acres) and in my therapist's office. Now that my sponsor and I have reconciled, she 'll be on the team as well. And that will suffice.

So what do you guys think I should do if a struggle session happens again? My sponsor says, "If it's not about you, leave it alone. It might be different for the other women." I forgot to follow that up with, "And if it's about me?" Here's my plan - tell me what you think: First off, also ask Daniel for his advice. Other than that, all I've got is do everything in my power to avoid being put in that position again. Hold my tongue, keep my peace. Talk about things of substance only one on one when appropriate and invited or given permission.

p.s. I've worked steps 1 and 2 again, this time cluing my sponsor into my thoughts in writing. She loves it, I love it, it's a win-win situation. Onto 3 now...