fini

well, O, those are weighty decisions if they were “yes” to renting out and assistant-managing.
i would find it exceedingly difficult to assist while being expected to enforce rules i disagree with or about things that are nobody’s business, really.
actually, “the program” doesn’t advise or not advise about romance or sexual relationships and entanglements.

how are you finding your regular job these days?

Dropsie

Ok, here are my 2 cents for what it is worth.

Saying no to AM job would be a good use of your saying no muscle. People like us put too much into those "jobs" to the disservcie of ourselves IMO. Spend that time doing something more important for your soul.

I would not sell your house yet, but I would spend some time thinking about how you can make it a happier place for you. If middleist is going to be staying with you rent free, how about a lick of paint? And take a week off and get everything out of there you no longer love or need. That will all be helpful if you do sell it and would make it a happier place for you when you go back.

When I got divorced I thought about selling my house as it was the place of so much pain. But I love my house so made some changes to make it more my own and am so happy I did.

You may not love your house and it may in the end be a good idea to sell it, but for now I would keep it simple and both the AM job and selling your house seem hard to me.

I am glad you enjoyed being there for work. I think the gradual approach to moving back sounds smart, although I kinda wonder if you might want to stay at SH until middleist is out of the house for your own stess levels. Not as a means of running, but that would give you a solid year before you go home and you can use that time to do a clear out and make some cool changes to the house that she could help you with or not. I do think with my kids it is good that they know that I am happy to do things for them but it is give and take, so asking a little help seems fair.

Just some thoughts.

XX

Obladi

Yeah so it would be one thing if House Owner said something like, "You have really been xyz positive trait and I think your a,b, c and d attributes would very nicely balance with the qualities New House Manager brings to her role." But seeing as she didn't say anything like that at all and in fact left it up to "the house" to make nominations (I'm the only viable candidate at this time), I'm feeling that "No, thank you" is a perfectly acceptable response. Yesterday I was thinking I should talk this all over with House Owner, but today I don't think that's at all important. Based on my very limited experience with her, I don't believe my opinions or perspectives would carry much water. So, why bother? Certainly if she asks, I'll be happy to discuss but I will be truly surprised if she asks anything at all.

I have started making my house a bit happier already. Just in little tiny touches like cleaning out that one corner in the dining room that has held a small collection of whatnot for the past year, washing my bed linens and remaking the bed, pulling my appliances out from the cupboard where the woman who cleaned my house inexplicably stashed them. But bigger things are on the horizon should middlest actually follow through on staying with me - things like painting the entire interior and replacing the crappy linoleum tile in the kitchen, bathrooms and basement. (Those things will happen anyway, but they will pay for her keep while she lives here if that transpires.)

As far as moving back home, I'm not sure of the timing yet. But every day I feel more pulled by the feeling of being in my own peaceful space... and more turned off by the sober home. There are only a handful of us left, and one woman is playing games this week that I really don't care to be a part of.

Work is going really well. My boss is being her usual micromanager self in spotty and unpredictable ways, but it's ok. My team is very glad to have me around and that feels great. I'm a bit behind on a couple of projects, but plan to get caught up again today, It's not been for lack of effort - there's just been a lot going on. I have not forgotten how very fortunate I am to be employed, to retain the same position, to be able to work from home. I could ask for better circumstances for sure, but that would be flat-out greedy.

Fusion

Home sounds more peaceful and less potential for discordancy, notwithstanding your daughter. For what my opinion is worth (NO finger pointing - except perhaps to the moon - Tao), you're worth more than an Assistant House Manager role, like slave labour, whilst still paying rent. And I don't believe the experience would be beneficial, because essentially, you performed such a role in rehab, aiding someone to secure employment, who then joined the Sober Living house, bad-mouthing you, then was kicked out! So much unnecessary drama and I've found my AV thrives on drama, maybe not yours though.

But then I still don't 'get' the purpose of sober living, unless perhaps, it's to instil 'routines' into each day, after someone has avoided them, and drank all day, every day and avoided daily maintenance. Or to instil the rules and routines that you'd expect a decent parent to apply with teenage children, to ensure they don't go 'off the rails' and drink too much, stay out too late, not open their curtains, leave the dishes in the sink, etc. Which you haven't, none of that, because you're a grown-up, and because you still have a career! I respect you, 0, and I found my own self-respect, was so important to regain; paramount, really.

Obladi

Forgot to acknowledge that "the program" has no advice about romantic entanglements. In fact, this is one place where the book is very mightily human, suggesting maybe we don't really need to bother with making amends for philandering. Hard to not see that as a bit self-serving, all things considered.

But the culture of the program (at least in my habitat) is very clear in suggesting that we stay far clear of romance in early days/months. And I happen to think that's very sound advice. Perhaps my mind would be changed entirely if my Ideal Partner walked in the door tomorrow, but I actually am pretty certain I wouldn't even recognize them if they did!

Obladi

So I just spoke with the new house manager who said a new woman is moving in Friday and might be moving in with me. The first house manager told me she was going to hold off on putting anyone in with me as long as she could.

Or I can move to the basement if I want to.
Which has flooded twice since I moved in.
You know how I feel about basements flooding.

Eldest has gone back to her apartment as of last night.

I think I might just move home.
Not in a snit, but seems like the universe is pointing in that direction.

Dropsie

Dont see why the new gal cant go in the basement?

Obladi

Only stable women are allowed in the basement. You know, like your kids shouldn't have rooms on the main floor if your bedroom is upstairs. Harder to monitor movement. At least that's what I assume the rationale is.

dwtbd

Wherever you go , there you are .(bromide/platitudie , a little, but still , yeah?)

Obladi

Precisely.

Dropsie

Maybe it is time to go home. The universe seems to think so, but what does your AV think?

In my case, my decision not to drink at this stage is totally unrelated to where I am but rather how I feel. I can feel the need to avoid my feelings anywhere.

Of course, having a living situation that makes that more difficult is a plus, but at some stage you do have to go home.

The question for you of coure is are you ready and what does that pesky AV think?? You will have to prove him wrong at some stage, but is now the time?

I kinda think you are ready, but do you?? In your soul knowing that you may not get another chance for real this time.

dwtbd

Totally tangential, but not without some implications, I think.
Viewing the AV as an alien ego , an 'other' to be objectively identified and separated 'from' was essential for me to get out from under 'It'. I utilized the Structural Model, a la AVRT, in order to 'hear' and understand the impulses and motivations of "it".
Prior to a conscious and purposeful identification/separation from my AV, I would assume/;assimilate its impulses and motivations as coming from "me" , before the identification my assumption was " I want /need to drink" and then act accordingly. Knowing or sensing that at some level I wanted to not drink and not suffer the consequences of drinking , but being 'blind' to the idea of the Beast, there wasn't really anyway for Me to not be Me, yeah? Since the Beast and its AV are 'part' of me, sans identification , I was left to feel that the impulses and motivations for more booze were always Me and in order to 'not have' the impulse, I'd need to get a whole 'new ' me, but as above wherever I went , there I was.
My Beast was able to manipulate and drive Me, aided by Its ability to sound like Me and convince Me that the motivation for more booze was Me , and not by Its nature of actually being 'just' a part, of Me.
Long way around the bend here, sorry, but the thing that started this riff ( and forgive me, as it comes stream of conscious-like after only first coffee) , was seeing a crone( hopefully self identified, not a pejorative) refer to an other's AV as 'him'.
I'm not sayin' bros lack dimensionality , but I think the case could be made that they(we) may lack a little, say nuance , in the realm of introspection , or maybe even not a lack of the nuance, maybe just a lack of the acknowledgement of the need for it? Anyway , half jokingly , the point was really about the importance , I feel, in the process of introspection needed to identify and separate from the AV, the less externalities involved the more precise the self-identification.
My AV still 'sounds' like Me, It uses my thoughts , feelings, and internal vocabulary to try and remain hidden in the false idea that IT is ME , it's not , it's a part, but now it is a wholly segregated and isolated identification of an aspect of the whole shebang.
IT's literally nothing but the desire for more booze.

Obladi

Dropsie is accurate in her gender identification of my beast. It's a "he."

Brevity due to the need to get working, nothing to worry about. I'll be back shortly.

Obladi

So I read (or started reading) this book once that included an exercise that went something like this. Not sure if I've told you about it before or not, but broster puts me in mind of it again:

1. Think about that thing about yourself that you can't stand
2. Take that thing out and put it in front of you
3. What does it look like? Get a really good sense of how it looks, it's consistency and dimension.
4. Do you have a good image?
5. Look how pitiful it is. Poor thing - it can't survive without you.
6. But it is part of you.
7. Now put it back.

That was a very powerful exercise for me. I could feel a lot of compassion for that ugly little monster when it was in front of me. It wasn't addiction at the time, but it might as well been because of course my addiction arose from that disgusting beast. And when I read that I had to take it back? Ugh. This was the only visualization exercise where I was ever really able to feel the feels. It was hard as hell to return that thing to my self. But of course it was/is part of me and there's no way to get rid of it. Learn to live with it, nurture or starve it, put it's ugly gnarly hair in a ponytail atop its hideous head... whichever, it's me.

I feel as if this is how the imagery of Rational Recovery has helped me, though it's certainly taken an awful long time. For years I've been able to see the beast as a separate entity, distinct from Me while simultaneously understanding it was actually no such thing. At some point, addiction got into me and now it's here to stay. I can no more rid myself of It than I can rid myself of my instinct to breath or my ravenous hunger when I haven't eaten in a long time. Like my physical system does when deprived of air or food, the beast clamors for attention when I'm disturbed, suggests that drinking is a great way to escape, and has learned to stoop to ever-lower and more devious depths. It's become sophisticated enough now that the only signal I can rely on is my physiological state. If I am shaky, nauseous, have that pushing sensation in the middle of my chest, develop a sudden headache during the day or am otherwise physically distressed, that's my cue that the beast is poised. I must STOP and pay attention to what's going on with me. If I don't do that, the beast will have the opportunity to take over and I will "find" myself drinking again, seemingly without any reason at all.

The AV tells me the same things people have said to me all of my life. Painful things like, "you're too sensitive," "you think too much," "nobody understands you," "you're just playing the victim." The AV twists the truth all around so that I doubt what I know. It enjoys riddles where the obvious answer is that I'm wrong, weak, deluded, not normal. The AV's job is to get the beast what It wants, and neither of them give a damn about Me.

But I did that. Didn't mean to, of course. But every time I drank to excess on purpose, I fed the beast. Every time I drank against my own wishes, the beast got more powerful. Every time I quit and subsequently returned to drinking, I revisited Skinner's experiment where we learned that intermittent reinforcement is even more powerful than consistent rewards. The beast resides within and there's no ditching it now. Indeed, it will be with me wherever I go because it is a part of me. Do I think of it affectionately and with pity? Not quite yet. But one day I think I might braid its ratty hair. For now, I just know that it's permanently barred from getting what it needs. The AV will continue to clamor, I'm sure. That's what the anxiety is about, that's what suggests I don't really need to take my medication, that's what tells me I have to Get Away Now. Damned thing doesn't care that Getting Away Now is something I feel horrible about not doing when I was a child and have then repeatedly not done throughout my life. It just knows that this instinct is strong within me and it knows that alcohol is a very effective way to dull everything, to dim it all to hues of grey. It "thinks" or "hopes" that this time will be different. Sure, I eventually Got Away from all of those other things, but it took a hell of a long time, didn't it? Maybe, just maybe, the beast can win and stay won on this one.

Nope.
Not happening.
Even when I don't see it now, even when I just suspect it, I know it doesn't matter whether it's real or not. Anything real or imagined that leads me to feel those uncomfortable feelings could or might or will lead the AV to suggest that drinking is a viable and good option. That's just a bold-faced lie. The beast is male because he's an opportunistic POS that does not care what he does to me. My female self cares deeply, and she's done with the wilting flower crap. It's not a good look.

I am O, hear me rOar.

Dropsie

Great post and insight. Like the visualisation.

For me, once I recognised the problem (took a while) I have seen my alcohol abuse as a distorted coping mechanism (of which I have more than one), its just that alcohol is the best in terms of creating an escape and the worst in terms of adverse impact on my life.

The key for me to stay stopped was to take the additional step to accept that, as you say, I have fed and nurtured my drinking so that it now is a full blown addiction such that it is a problem in and of itself and cannot be tolerated in any way. So, I can procrastinate a little, but not a single sip.

But the advantage in all this is that I now feel the signs that allow me to take a look at what emotion is creating the turmoil and address it, which I really had not done previously. Sometimes more effectivley than others I might add.

So, in the moving decision, I was just suggesting that you accept the discomfort and really allow yourself to feel fully what that addictive side of you feels about it. Rationally it makes sense, but on an emotional level, does the move pose risks? That AV is a tricky little guy, so take him out and spend some time with him before you take the risk of change.

Obladi

Oh dear, I just realized I neglected to tell you that I made the decision. It was shortly after I considered the offer to move into the basement and was 95% sure I wasn't up for that. I got in my car at the end of that workday (Wednesday), and by the time I got back to the sober home, the decision was final. I spoke with several people that know me well, and all signed off enthusiastically with the exception of my best friend and her spouse. They didn't oppose my decision, but were very very cautious . This makes sense - in a way, they know me best, but our relationship is one where we are extremely close remotely. That sounds weird, but I imagine some of you have friends like that: the ones that would be on a plane today if you needed them, the ones who know and love you better than anyone in an essential way but not necessarily in a day-to-day involved way. They wanted me to consider staying just another week, or try a couple of trial overnights at my home, or consider going to another sober home first. I get it; this feels sudden and out of the blue to them and they are worried for me. I was able to take that all in with good grace and still say, "I've made up my mind."

In a display of progress on the confidence front, I didn't ask the girls at all. That not telling felt neither here nor there - I just have come to a place where their approval of what I do is secondary. I told eldest because it came up in conversation, but middlest doesn't have a need to know. I'm sure it will come up at some point once she decides she's speaking to me again (prediction: sometime in August, but there will be a terse "Happy Birthday" text next Friday). Youngest doesn't/wouldn't care. Or she'd be pleased for me in a detached sort of way. Either of those is ok by me.

So anyhow, yeah. I packed up half of my stuff Wed night and brought it home yesterday. Went back to the house and one of the other women had moved all of her stuff into "my" room. I had thought I would sleep there last night, but the second bed in that room is gawdawful and I didn't want either of us to have to sleep on it. So I packed up the rest of my stuff and now I live at home!!

Didn't sleep very well, but that's ok. I think I was just too keyed up to really settle down.

Quote:

the advantage in all this is that I now feel the signs that allow me to take a look at what emotion is creating the turmoil and address it, which I really had not done previously.

Does it pose risks emotionally? For sure. I don't think I have the capacity to take the AV out and spend time with It in the way you suggest. If I do, I haven't discovered it yet. It's a part of me. Sure, the AV tries to be separate and has half-heartedly suggested drinking is now a viable option, but that was an easy one to parse. Of course, it's going to try that old trick, but it's pretty simple to see why that would happen as I move home. Which leads me to thinking about "what emotion is causing the turmoil." While it's predictable that the beast would want Me to drink and so it's easy to toss that off as a thing It just does/wants, you remind me that I do need to sit now and explore what the feelings are. I'll do that.

But for now I need to get to work.
Love yas.

Dropsie

For me, its all about shame, feeling overwhelmed, lacking control, feeling unfairly treated, not being listened to/respected.

Often I do even realise I feel that way until I get that uncomfortable, cannot face it, feeling -- then I literally got to ask, what is causing that as I truly didnt even know anything was bothering me. But I can ask myself, waas up, which is a start.

At this point, I truly never want to drink over it, but I do feel the emotional need to run for the hills.

Welcome home.

Obladi

Yeah, Drops - my triggers are the same as yours. Your diagnostic technique is one of the very best lessons from this whole close-to-5-month exercise; learning that physical feelings of discomfort almost always point to some sort of dis-ease in my psyche. I didn't know that. Or if I did, it's knowledge I've never retained until now. I've learned other lessons, but this one that allows me to stop and literally ask what's going on and to believe something actually is going on - and whatever that is deserves my attention; this is big. Huge.

I was very proud of myself the other day when I noticed anxiety and nausea and was able to make the a, b, c connection: I feel shaky - oh that's probably because eldest was in my home - annnnd that's because I feel like she's "taken" my space. Man, now I feel nauseous - oh that's definitely because I just heard that a friend relapsed - annnnd that's because it feels too close to home and for a split second I thought, "I could do that too," annnnnd that thought is literally nauseating.

This kind of awareness completely escaped me in the past. It's hard to remember now, but I know that in some fashion I was able to hide the physical feelings from myself - through denial or minimization I guess, effectively cutting of the channel that would have allowed me to explore my psychological discomfort. That bypass led directly to drinking. I'm not grateful to have become addicted to alcohol, but I am grateful I didn't go down an even worse road - like the one where one becomes completely detached from others, or the one where a person physically harms other people. Not saying the harm I caused wasn't bad enough; it most certainly was. I'm just grateful to not have done anything I literally wouldn't be able to live with sober.

Thanks - it's nice here.
The birds are clamoring outside my open windows, the cats are warming up to me a little bit, and everything is pretty much tidied up. Cleaning in earnest will start tonight or tomorrow.

dwtbd

There you are ,

fini

i’m thinking about the Get-Out-Now imperative.
and how very difficult it can be to discern when that needs to be followed by immediately getting out of there vs knowing that it is discomfort but not actual danger.
though danger takes many forms, of course.
when you were a kid, you didn’t have the resources or the power in relationships to get out when it was the thing to do.
as a grown-up, that choice is possible, but we may not always know if it is just a reflex or seriously would be best.

has Daniel been helpful with figuring out with you when the urge to run “should” be followed and when you need to step back?