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Old 02-03-2013, 06:28 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Yes. It makes good sense to me. We can't ever escape ourselves and at the same time live life in the moment without courting serious pretense into our lives. Exercising free will is a wonderful choice to make, and when from a place of strength and desire, even more so.

Fear is a mind-killer. There are no stronger prison bars then the ones we knowingly self-create against ourselves within our own psyche. When we ourselves are the jailor and author of our own torment, we are truly lost.

Being indifferent but not ignorant to our fears creates the golden key which will unlock any and all locked doors, now and always, without fail, simply, and without pomp and ceremony.

Free will in action is power unending when brought against any challenge we may choose to meet successfully.

Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
Thank you Robby and freshstart

So I've been thinking about fears today whilst I've been pottering about. What exactly are my fears?

And I think the bit in bold above sums it up. Am I actually afraid to be myself? Am I afraid of life itself? Can I not feel comfortable in my own skin?

I do drink to shut off. I can dress it up and calling it relaxing in the evening, having some 'me' time...everybody does it right? Wrong. I don't know anybody in my life now that would drink 2 bottles of wine every other evening.

I wasn't always like this though, 6 years ago I had a good job, was doing an OU degree, was running my own business (badly) I felt quite content with myself and comfortable in my routine.

I know what things have changed in my life since then and how unhappy I have become over the years. So what am I fearing? Facing up to these things and my current life I think.

Am I overthinking everything? I'm doing my own head in that's for sure

I know when I have had periods of sobriety I struggle with the evenings. There is just a desperate sense of loneliness. Ok the first few days are usually 'easy' for me to deal with as I'm happy to go to bed very early and just read. After that novelty wears off though I just don't know what to do with myself or how to relax with myself.

Do I keep returning to my prison because it is comfortable and it is numb? I think so.

Anyway I'm just waffling now and I haven't replied to either post properly at all!

When you say indifference to my fears Robby, do you mean accepting them, but not over thinking them? Carry on regardless. I do think over thinking is a huge problem of mine.

Hmmm I was going to say food for thought lol - aha more thinking! Doh.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:30 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MyTimeNow View Post
I think I'm causing problems for myself as I am sometimes quieting it with ok, not today as you have this this and this to do but maybe Wednesday, say, when you've got a quiet one coming up. Feeding it and giving it hope I guess so it stays quiet. Then I think I'll deal with it on Wednesday and shush it then but of course the seeds have been sown and by then I've gotten myself into a complete state of anxiety over drinking, so I do even though I don't want to.

I'm confusing myself here!!
Don't sweat the confusion. It's not personal. Forget about it and move on.

Addiction ambivalence in action explains the stop n' go of wanting to do it (drink) even when you don't. We often want our cake and eat it too in early sobriety / abstaining.

Making deals with your AV highlights you already have skills in recognising your AV. Awesome. Sharpen up those skills and you're then in a new position to be surgically precise in knowing your AV.

Recognition is the key skill. Everything else is yesterday news...
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:46 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MyTimeNow View Post
When you say indifference to my fears Robby, do you mean accepting them, but not over thinking them? Carry on regardless. I do think over thinking is a huge problem of mine.

Hmmm I was going to say food for thought lol - aha more thinking! Doh.
Overthinking is only a problem if you frame it in that way. I suggest you don't. Don't hobble your thinking. Rather, set it free, and let it be what ever it is, and your most stubborn fears will be dealt with in very amazing and personally satisfying ways. It's a hell of a ride being a free thinker.

Yes, acceptance is required for having a qualified indifference. Without acceptance, we're simply grinding out more conditions to chain us to continued failure and misery. Being indifferent is being aware and yet not engaging. Watch a butterfly - beautiful how they flit about. Meditate of walking on sand, looking back, and not seeing footprints - this is pure indifference - you've gone from there to here and yet your path is untraveled.




p.s. About the carry on regardless bit - I would suggest carry on with an eye to responsible change rather then a blunt attitude of regardlessness
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:48 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
In "Rational Recovery The New Cure for Substance Addiction" by Jack Trimpey, the homeless woman dialogue is presented in
"Chapter 4 The Recovery Hall of Mirrors: Let's Shatter the Illusions" p. 54
The dialogue and what it means are at the end of
"Illusion 3- The state of addiction may be objectively determined or shown. This very serious error is made when chemical dependence is confused with substance abuse and substance addiction." p. 58
These three terms are NOT interchangeable. Here are the relevant parts of three definitions from the RR Dictionary in the back of the book:
Addiction. 1. Addiction is chemical dependence that exists against one's own better judgement and persists in spite of efforts to control or eliminate the use of the substance. Logically, since addiction is known only to the individual, it may not be "diagnosed" except by asking the individual. 2. Addicted people are not out of control in the usual sense of the word, but have reversals of intent that lead back to drinking or drugging. 3. Addiction exists only in a state of ambivalence, in which one strongly wants to continue drinking alcohol or using other drugs, but also wants to quit or at least reduce the painful consequences. With AVRT, recovery from addiction is a simple, mercifully brief undertaking. (See chemical dependence and substance abuse.)

Chemical dependence. 2. Chemical dependence (especially upon drugs and alcohol) is an individual liberty with known health risks and known personal disadvantages including regrettable behavior, social ostracism, relationship problems, divorce, unemployment, and imprisonment. Regardless of the content of prohibition laws and the best efforts of law enforcement and others who oppose chemical dependence, using alcohol and drugs for pleasure is a personal liberty that cannot realistically be controlled by others. (see substance abuse.)

Substance abuse. 2. Someone else's opinion about an individual's use of certain substances, as in, "Substance abuse does not presume addiction."
When I came to understand Addictive Voice Recognition Technique, these definitions were essential to my getting a good foundation for how I thought to myself and talked to others about AVRT.

I interpret the two prisons Trimpey is referring to from the context of the complete paragraph he wrote that includes that last sentence on p.65. (highlighting added)
"The impulse to regard chemical dependence as a mental illness justifying incarceration has been tried and abandoned because of the implications to a free society. We may strongly disagree with this woman's judgment that she is really free, and we may believe that what she calls freedom is a prison in which she will needlessly die, but the judgement is hers until she may be declared mentally incompetent. Her prison is better than ours."
Later in the book, PART II AVRT: The Book Course, has all the information needed to sort out the strong emotions evoked from reading about the homeless woman. Which emotions were really mine and which belonged to my Beast?

------

As an abstainer, exercising my free will allows me to have a much more interesting and creative life than as a dependent drinker. Compared to when I was hooked on booze, as a permanent abstainer, there are so many more things I have imagined and can imagine doing in my life; and choosing to spend the time and effort to actually do them is what life is all about, to me. But I feel this is only half of the value of free will.

The other half of free will, to me, is having the ability to inhibit my behavior when various ideas come to mind that I conclude are impractical; and that happens a lot with me; and I like that I think that way. It's an essential part of my curiosity and broad view of the world. And when I take that inhibitory ability to the maximum, I know I have the capacity to decide many, many things that I will NEVER do. Drinking alcohol is one of them.

I came to realize that drinking alcohol actually reduced MY ability to use free will to its utmost, because it reduced my brain to operate at a subhuman level so often, and led me to spend so much time and effort on the insipid conniving of how to keep out of trouble when drunk.

When I made The Big Plan, I realized that by eliminating my ability to choose to drink, I was actually vastly increasing my opportunity to choose many other things. It was an easy trade off. I turned the drink on-off switch off and then smashed it with a sledge hammer, never to go on again.
I'm really sorry GT but I'm still not sure I understand!

At the moment I would say I am addicted. However in the past I would have fitted into the category of chemical dependence. Is it possible to be/do both at the same time?

Am I in a better place now because I am addicted rather than dependent? I absolutely have the ambivalence that on one hand I want to quit, but on the other of course I don't. Even though I do. And so the circle continues...

I've just had a look in the book to see where I'd read to.. ah the page is cornered at page 91 the beginning of the book course! I should have a better understanding when have read that (hopefully)

I do understand what I have bolded. I have had this in the past and glimpses of it in the more recent past. Of course there are many many things I would love to do that I will not be able to achieve with a hangover every other day. Drinking just seems so stupid and pointless when I think about it like that. The life wasted, the time wasted.

Aargh I feel like I want to bang my head against a brick wall. Knock some sense into myself because I have always, always this past year given up for 2-3 weeks and gone straight back into old behaviours.

I feel like I am doing this all wrong, because the assumption is there that I will do the same this time, I'm thinking negatively and I'm also keeping the beast quiet with the thoughts of reverting back to old ways so it's happy as it knows it's coming sooner or later.

I need that sledgehammer and to say not this time buster.

I think I've waffled my way into a moment of clarity lol.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:51 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Don't sweat the confusion. It's not personal. Forget about it and move on.

Addiction ambivalence in action explains the stop n' go of wanting to do it (drink) even when you don't. We often want our cake and eat it too in early sobriety / abstaining.

Making deals with your AV highlights you already have skills in recognising your AV. Awesome. Sharpen up those skills and you're then in a new position to be surgically precise in knowing your AV.

Recognition is the key skill. Everything else is yesterday news...
Ahhhh, lol. How many times, in the first week or so, you and others in secular connections walked me through this exact thing.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:59 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
 
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You do not need to understand all your fears in order to quit. The AV will have you to think that...that until you learn to deal with those fears you must stay drunk in order to cope. The irony is, one can never really learn to deal with fear by continually avoiding it. So round and round I go chasing my tail.

The fact of the matter is that YOU are not "comfortable and numb"...IT is. YOU are rather uncomfortable with being numb at this point.

Seperate.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:10 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by MyTimeNow View Post
I know when I have had periods of sobriety I struggle with the evenings. There is just a desperate sense of loneliness. Ok the first few days are usually 'easy' for me to deal with as I'm happy to go to bed very early and just read. After that novelty wears off though I just don't know what to do with myself or how to relax with myself.

Do I keep returning to my prison because it is comfortable and it is numb? I think so.
Let's break it down into bite-sized bits of food for thought:

There is
just a desperate sense
of loneliness

Challenge:
-isolate being desperate
-isolate loneliness

Goal:
-desperation is another name for fear. Fear is a mind-killer.
-loneliness is experienced when one is unable to be alone with themselves. Discover what is creating roadblocks to your being satisfied with being alone with yourself. Don't beat your self up in your quest. Rather seek why you're protecting yourself from yourself.


Let me know what you 'think', MTN.

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Old 02-03-2013, 07:21 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Discover what is creating roadblocks to your being satisfied with being alone with yourself.
Fine advice, but this is not a necessary condition to ending your addiction to alcohol. It's AV to assign underlying issues to drinking.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:28 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Fine advice, but this is not a necessary condition to ending your addiction to alcohol. It's AV to assign underlying issues to drinking.
Thanks. I too agree its AV to assign issues to drinking. On the other hand, its also more AV to ignore ourselves as we bring about an end to our addictions. Life without alcohol is not addressed with or about AVRT either way. AVRT is simply a tool, not a philosophy choice to live a life on, as I'm sure you already know.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:34 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly. Once ending your addiction...then carry on delving as desired. The AV loves to muddy the waters with underlying issues. I don't think to seperate our problems out from our addiction means we are ignoring ourselves, it simply means we will not ever allow those problems in our life to be seized upon by the AV and ussed as excuses to drink or get high. That's all.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:38 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Fine advice, but this is not a necessary condition to ending your addiction to alcohol. It's AV to assign underlying issues to drinking.
I agree. Being alone with myself does not have anything to do with my BP.

I was alone 95 percent of the time when I was drinking. I am still alone 95 percent of the time and I am permanently abstinent from alcohol.

No conditions. I don't drink, ever, no matter what.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:49 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Yup.

Separation does not equate with ignorance of ourselves, although many persons discover they have very little awareness of themselves once they put down that drink. Ignorance is bliss comes to mind, and many drinkers made full use of those 'skills'

it simply means we will not ever allow those problems in our life to be seized upon by the AV and used as excuses to drink or get high. That's all.
I can't agree with this though, as worded about not allowing. I can't control my AV without creating more AV, so attempting controlling what my AV does or doesn't do is useless and unsatisfying.

I'm sure its just your wording that is igniting my own AV early warning bells, lol.

It's perfectly okay for my AV to seize upon whatever and present them to me as excuses to drink. I control the ability to drink, not my AV. I have nothing to fear from my AV. I'm not confused about what an excuse is anymore.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:55 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Wow, thank you so much to all of you. I just caught up with the thread and am so glad for all the insight. MTN I fully understand what you are saying. The internal chatter is a bit endless for me as well right now. I cannot control what is says only how I am dealing with it. Last night it was attempting to make me crazy with the "you can't just quit thought" and "well when you mess up..." I just kept thinking how "overly confident" my beast is and that it was annoying at best. So thanks again everyone I am reading closely.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:58 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
 
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Me too, received, and as you know from our PM's I have recently ended some relationships that I have decided are not in my best interest. As a result, I am learning some new ways of being. It is often hard. I often feel alone. Those problems are not to be denied, they are simply not allowed to be tied to drinking. In other words...thinking that loneliness is a reason for drinking is AV, pure and simple.

The winds will come, of that we can all be sure...but I will not allow my abstinence to be "blown about by every wind."
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:00 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Yes, this is what I was trying to say...the homeless woman is not addicted. When/if the consequences of her chemical dependence create ambivalence for her, then she can recover. Quickly.

Yes, the same way one might placate a tantruming child. It works in the moment, but does nothing toward really modifying the behavior. I've made all kinds of empty promises just to get a screaming child out of the supermarket and away from the judging stares of others. Just to stop the madness for a minute, ya know?But in doing so, a two year old maintains control of the driver's seat. Guess what happens the next time I say no? I can look forward to increasingly intense tantrums...forever.

Feeding IT with hope, as you said, will only keep this battle going on and on and on...that's exhausting and to be honest, not likely sustainable. Saying "No, Never" will obviously be met with resistance (understatement...more like fury) but really what is to fear from the beast?! IT cannot hurt you...unless you believe it can, unless you actually buy what the AV is selling. Expect the inital resistance from the beast. You will NOT have it's blessing in your decision. Know that and continue with your resolve despite IT'S objections. IT is not in charge. YOU are. After the inital storm, eventually the beast quiets. I like to imagine myself standing by watching it implode on itself.

Seperating from IT, for me, causes it to be less scary and more stupid. Every idea that originates from IT is going to be a dumb idea, because it's going to somehow lead to getting drunk or high.
Thank you Soberlicious, yes this is something I can relate to completely and yes, it is completely exhausting!
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:01 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
 
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"Not allowing it" does not mean I am trying to control it. "Not allowing it" means, I recognize what it is trying to do, and move on. That is not a wrestling match.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:10 AM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Me too, received, and as you know from our PM's I have recently ended some relationships that I have decided are not in my best interest. As a result, I am learning some new ways of being. It is often hard. I often feel alone. Those problems are not to be denied, they are simply not allowed to be tied to drinking. In other words...thinking that loneliness is a reason for drinking is AV, pure and simple.

The winds will come, of that we can all be sure...but I will not allow my abstinence to be "blown about by every wind."
You know what IS different, soberlicious? The 5 percent of the time I'm out and about and/or with others, I ROCK IT!

And, the 95 percent of the time I'm alone, I am ME, not IT. I've got more projects going on right now than I have had in 5 years.

Little sh*t comes around but I just carry on (and picture it getting smashed by a fire engine).
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:11 AM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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Thank you for this Soberlicious... I am of the type that boredom is justification for drinking and I am bored alot... Last night around 5 O'clock I realized I was bored...shocking. I also realized this was my AV saying "you're bored". I got up and made a really great dinner and by the time I was done cooking was not bored. Wow. Not sure I was ever bored and even though I dont like cooking I did realize that if I attempted to "wrestle" with the beast or give it any hope that it was going to win...it would win.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:17 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Don't sweat the confusion. It's not personal. Forget about it and move on.

Addiction ambivalence in action explains the stop n' go of wanting to do it (drink) even when you don't. We often want our cake and eat it too in early sobriety / abstaining.

Making deals with your AV highlights you already have skills in recognising your AV. Awesome. Sharpen up those skills and you're then in a new position to be surgically precise in knowing your AV.

Recognition is the key skill. Everything else is yesterday news...
Thanks Robby, that's encouraging to read

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Let's break it down into bite-sized bits of food for thought:

There is
just a desperate sense
of loneliness

Challenge:
-isolate being desperate
-isolate loneliness

Goal:
-desperation is another name for fear. Fear is a mind-killer.
-loneliness is experienced when one is unable to be alone with themselves. Discover what is creating roadblocks to your being satisfied with being alone with yourself. Don't beat your self up in your quest. Rather seek why you're protecting yourself from yourself.


Let me know what you 'think', MTN.

Lol well what I am 'thinking' ...

is that I never used to have this problem. I'm quite aware of it and that I used to be very comfortable in my own company.

I have completely lost my sense of self in the last 6 years to the point of not feeling like I actually know who I am anymore. I don't even *really* know what I enjoy doing any more. Craziness huh?

I don't think I am protecting myself from myself because I think I am a bad person, maybe I am protecting myself from thinking about things I don't want to think about.

Right back to this thinking malarky!

I completely see where the others are coming from too that this shouldn't be a condition of my BP because if it was my BP would never get made. It's all a bit chicken and egg to me at the moment.

I think
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:17 AM
  # 40 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
One must decide for themselves that it needs to stop. One must have a sincere desire to quit drinking or using, it cannot be externalized. Until this happens, no amount of "treatment" will matter.
Great thread here I got lots out of this. Thanks MTN. The above quote is my whole reality. I forever externalized my 'desire' to quit whether for a finite period of time or on occasions I would consider quitting forever.

I read RR and enjoyed it but read it as a novel. I could not at that time believe my Big Plan. I didnt believe it because i was still in fear of my AV. All of my being still wanted and accepted the desire to drink sometime in the future. I noticed this at the time and should have continued to explore but I got complacent, and drank again.

France was it for me too. I said to myself, what if you are in Bordeaux... You're not going to taste the wine?! Impossible!

So I kept on drinking in the here and now.

The day I woke up with my final hangover I internalized my addiction. The sincere desire to quit was present. It had appeared to be present in the past externally. I never knew there was a difference. Sounds silly but I had to feel it for myself. And I did. My Big Plan was made at that moment without argument.

I made the decision. Drinking is no longer an option. This is a relief like I never felt before. It happened way faster than I ever would have believed.

Now that Ive walked out of that prison I have the chance to work on how I choose to live.
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