bemyself

haha MTN - yeh, this time zone business is the only thing that bugs me about SR. I've sort of given up wondering who's 'up' and who's in bed in which country now :-)

good on you re the exercise thing - I've always been a complete sloth, more of a lie-about-n-read type, all my life. I know it's supposed to be terrific for numerous ills and ailments (not just quitting drinking), but I'm simply not into it - apart from a bit of gardening and taking my gorgeous doggie Bess to the nearby beaches or into the bush or open dog-friendly parks. But you cycle away, of course after your fourth cuppa tea :-) You Pommies and yer tea :-)

MyTimeNow

Lol! I'll have you know I'm only on cuppa #2... so far... What have you got? Erm... vegemite?

I suspect it can be a bit frustrating with not many peeps around in your timezone. I enjoy waking up to the posts though. I've become fantastic at laying about and reading, but I used to do a lot of exercise and sport and enjoy it so going to try and get back into it. Only once the tea has run out of course

MyTimeNow

I just wanted to come back to this post after a morning out with DD at softplay.

Can I have a chocolate cookie please? Was received with yes, come on then lets go buy one... Once eaten, the ensuing tantrum wanting another - I want another one. But I WANT one. I WAAAANNNNT ONE!!!!!!!! Was met with - no. You've had one, one is enough. No. Mummy said no. You can stamp and scream and cry all you like, but you are not having another one. I've said no and you know Mummy is not going to change her mind.

Why did I never do this with the AV? Why was I so Aaargh? Stop? I don't want to. No. You're doing my head in. Aaargh now I'm so wound up, anxious and frantic I'll just say yes to shut you up!

I never would have considered using the same behaviour technique as I would do with DD.

Of course leaving and getting in the car was a battle too. The Beast was straight in there with I (IT) could murder a drink.

Mummy said no and I'm not backing down on this. Ever.

Cool. I'll just rethink the Mummy bit when saying no to the beast though. That's a bit odd. But hey it worked.

mecanix

Seems to me our AV could be our inner 3 year old child throwing a tantrum .. Shame i was such a poor push over parent to myself for so long .. maybe this is the start of finding self love / compassion ?

Bestwishes, M

MyTimeNow

I do need to love myself a lot more. I'm told I'm confident, funny, beautiful, engaging, witty and - one thing I do hate - amazing. Why? Because I can wield a drill and change the oil in my car? Nobody else is going to do it.

But I give in to the AV at the end of the day because I don't have any belief in myself or much love for myself.

I underwent psychotherapy some 15 years ago (mistake!) but I do recall - why don't you give yourself a treat. Even if it's a long soak in a bubble bath, something for you...

Something nice for me? Alien concept.

Time to embrace that alien concept now.

freshstart57

Mecanix, I agree with this 100%. Yes - our AV is our inner child. It is spoiled brat accustomed to getting its candy whenever it stamps its dirty little footses. And to teach it how to live, we must accept it and learn to treat it with kindness and care, to do what is right for us, not what that inner child demands.

MyTimeNow

I thought I'd missed the point of Mecanix post... I'm sure I did by a long shot!

I'm confused regarding the part I've bolded. Is our AV not our beast? Should we not be aiming to hush it and stamp it out? To teach it to live and treat it with kindness and care...

I apologise in advance but, sorry, I don't understand this.

freshstart57

Well, there is a lot of discussion on this whole separation / nondual thing about AVRT. I agree that at first, I treated my AV like an ex GF who lied and cheated and made a fool of me, exactly as alcohol did. Total separation. Scorched earth. I don't see you, I don't hear you, I will never ever give you a glance or so much as the time of day again. You call me or try to contact me, I will just smile to myself and hang up.

I am coming to a more integrated holistic understanding now, that my AV is something I just accept now. I think I might have worded my post better, so let me try again.

To learn how to live without alcohol, we must learn to treat ourselves with kindness and care, and teach ourselves to do what is right for us, not what our AV demands.

mecanix

For me the AV might well be the stamping foot 3 year old throwing a tantrum , it certainly felt as persistant and annoying as one.
I am the adult and if i am to show greater understanding and compassion to myself and teach myself new ways i sometimes have to know no means no , some of my baser desires have all the sophistication of a three year old , certainly my drinking did .

By thinking what is genuinely in the best interests of that "child" in the heart of me and by being my own adult , i don't let him smoke , i don't let him drink , if he has a temper tantrum i don't let it upset my equelibrium . I have firm boundaries, I do feed him nice food, make sure his warm and comfortable, clean, brushes his teeth. I care for myself these days.

For me to visualize myself as a child was a revelation as i realized how much i beat myself up about stuff, how i ignored my basic needs and how out of control my desires were .

Probably my "stuff" . I just found it useful to me in my journey.

Bestwishes, M

RobbyRobot

My AV is the voice of my Beast, and my Beast sure as hell ain't my inner child, lol. To each their own though.

I haven't ever humanised or given a personality to my Beast/AV. Slippery slope in getting cozy or otherwise feeling "satisfied" with my AV.

I'm indifferent, mentally and emotionally, to the nth degree with my AV. I use AVRT to recognise it, and then I forget about it, and get on with whatever.

AV is a perfectly normal part of my thinking of course, and I don't see any need to give it any recognition whatsoever except its the mouthpiece of my Beast.

bemyself

yeh I agree with aspects of treating IT as (good old fashioned) 'baser desires' (God, I feel like someone outta the 19th century :-)).

And I agree with the stuff about learning to treat my adult self better - duh, at not far off 60!!

But, I also figure RobbyR's point about extending the metaphor of the inner child could get dangerous. Well, for me, it would.

Just keep up that exercise machine and the cups o tea MTN -AND keep on telling your littly 'no!' to her dear little tantrums. I had twins (now 33 y.o.) and I reckon I'm still slightly hearing impaired / brain damaged from not so much their toddler age tanties, but the ones they threw much later in their lives. LOL plus wry grin....

bemyself

Whoops - clarification: despite my tortured syntax, I meant I agree with Robby's point.

Received

Yeah, I get you RR. My beast is "it". And "IT" is definitely not my inner child or any thing else.

I don't name it, try and personalize it, don't wrestle with it, don't engage it. That's exactly what my beast/it wants. To do that, I would think would be totally AV.

soberlicious

My original post with the tantruming toddler analogy was about not placating the beast, but rather letting it experience the full pain of NO without fear of it's wrath (much like a parent shows indifference to a child's fit)

The analogy was intended to highlight the process of becoming indifferent to It's shenanigans, not that the beast itself is analogous to a child. How or if one personalizes their beast was not my point.

However, outside the realm of RR and AVRT, mecanix's post was intriguing to me. I read alot of Thich Nhat Hanh. He speaks of taking care of your anger as a mother would comfort a crying child....further to embrace emotions which usually scare us. But, that's a different philosophy for a different thread. That's not an AVRT strategy.

Received

I totally got how you took the analogy and parsed it out in order to explain not fearing it and becoming indifferent to it, soberlicious.

freshstart57

I have talked with others who like that idea of ignoring that screaming child with the understanding that giving in to that out of control demon child is foolishness. Another tantrum? You are not me, and you get locked in your room. I am busy. No means no, and it will always mean no.

My AV is a manifestation of baser desires, and dealing with it has been me has been easy once I understood that it was time to just grow up. That isn't a popular suggestion to others as it invariably generates an emotional response - an adult to adult conversation gets mucked up when the communication changes to parent/child. Big boy pants for me though, and they fit too.

applecake

What a fantastic thread! Thanks, MTN, for getting it started, and thanks to everyone who has contributed to the conversation. AVRT makes more sense to me every time I am able to read through conversations like this, and I really appreciate that everyone on this thread has been so respectful of one another and good about moving the conversation forward.

Regarding CBT and loving oneself, I've been working my way through a book I've found to be really helpful in addressing my years-long "need" to beat myself up--which led to drinking, which led to beating myself up more, which led to more drinking, and so on... It is David Burns' Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy. It is astonishing to me how many of my thought-processes have been addressed in this book! And, as I said last night in chat, it wasn't until I learned to be kind to myself that I ever got any handle on sobriety.

I've also learned that I tend to do my best meditating while exercising. I feel the best release through meditation on the elliptical trainer, probably since I'm not having to worry about 1) tripping, 2) stepping in something nasty, or 3) getting mugged on pre-dawn walks or a) getting a charlie horse while engaging in the downward dog. In other words, it's a relatively safe place to let my mind do its thing. But the walks and yoga are good, too!

MyTimeNow

Morning guys just a quick one whilst I have a cuppa (#3 bemyself ) I did read the posts yesterday but couldn't bring myself to post. Or think about much. My usually mild mannered son went berzerk first thing screaming and shouting that he hated me and then started trying to shove me about. Out of the blue, never happened before. It was all because it's PE at school on a Tuesday... anyway I was really upset all day. So much for loving myself. Didn't drink. Didn't do much of anything.

I'm going to phone the school today to see what sort of counselling they have available.

Anyway totally unrelated but I am going to further ingest the new posts today and I have some comments. I'll be back later when I have time to think! I just feel so sad right now.

mecanix

not drinking is a very loving thing to do for yourself i'm drinking a few teas today , just hard to get started today .. It will change with time, we all have up's and down's

Bestwishes, M

MyTimeNow

Thank you and yes, when you put it like that I loved myself a bit too much later on though with a large dominos pizza ... That reads so wrong!

I need help to help him if that makes sense so that will be my plan for today - phonecalls to the school. Enjoy your tea and whatever you do when you get started