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Old 01-07-2010, 04:02 PM
  # 161 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Anna View Post
Hi Daphne,

I'm glad you're here and asking questions.

Yes, it is definitely possible to recover without using AA.

There are many of us on these boards who are doing that, and I am one. I have been sober for about 9 1/2 years now. I have made many changes in my life, mostly from the inside out and I have found a spiritual (not religious) connection.

As far as cutting back and eventually stopping, it might work for you. But, I tried so hard to do that for about a year, with great determination, and it didn't stick.
Hi there
thats really helpful to hear. Well done you. Any advice you can offer would be greatly received.
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:03 PM
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oops, pls ignore this

Last edited by spryte; 01-07-2010 at 04:10 PM. Reason: posted too quick
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:06 PM
  # 163 (permalink)  
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Daphne,

My advice would be that you need to remember that stopping drinking is the beginning.

And, that's when the hard work starts.

The drinking is a symptom of the underlying problems.
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jaitch View Post
Yes , you will read many fascinating things about AA founders, my favourite is that Bill W, he founder if you like. said he was the reincarnation of Jesus. He wouldnt be the first person to think that and if I had passed on a message that quickly spread round the world and was getting results I might think i was Jesus,

Read The Book Daphne.
yes he helped him write the book you all keep referring to apparently.
Twas the oxford group ,mad right wing evangelical they all belonged to that freaked me out !
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by spryte View Post
oops, pls ignore this
Wasn't glib and hey share the popcorn !!
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:13 PM
  # 166 (permalink)  
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Night Night

hey you guys off to bed now as its midnight here
thanks for all the posts which I have found stimulating, useful and thought provoking.
speak soon
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:16 PM
  # 167 (permalink)  
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Humour doesn't always travel well over the interwebs...I had second thoughts!
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by basIam View Post
This is a total fallacy!

Proposition: Alcoholism is alcohol dependence
Postulate: Any human being who consume enough alcohol over a long enough period of time will become alcohol dependent.
Contention: Given the postulate, the proposition leads to the conclusion that every human being is by nature alcoholic.

This contention is absurd.

Given some epsilon I will find a sufficiently large delta to satisfy the conditions thus making this theorem true.
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Old 01-07-2010, 05:05 PM
  # 169 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tazman53 View Post
How can one be in the medical proffession and deny hundreds of long term scientific & medical studies that indicate that alcoholism is a disease?
References, please. There is more than sufficient criticism and published work refuting the alcoholic disease model as there is to promote it.

Originally Posted by Tazman53 View Post
Are you beneath having a disease? My God what if you were a diabetic, would you deny all medical and scientific knowledge about diabetes and its treatment and just keeping on downing the sugars and refusing to take insulin?
Diabetes is an interesting and from what I can tell, often quoted example. Unfortunately, it's really not a good example.

First off, it one had Type 1 diabetes, one would be afflicted with an auto-immune disorder that destroyed the insulin-producing islet cells in the pancreas. Typically, younger individuals (hence the historical term "juvenile diabetes") would suffer the brunt of this condition through a viral infection or other immune response which would identify the islet cells as foreign bodies and destroy them thus rendering them unable to effectively produce insulin and regulate blood glucose.

Type 2 diabetes is different in that one's pancreas still produces insulin normally (abnormally in fact - it can over-produce in order to attempt to compensate for the hyperglycemia) but for a variety of factors - obesity, sedentary lifestyle, high HDL blood cholesterol, etc. - the excess fat a body has interferes with normal glucose/insulin bonding needed to produce cellular energy and individuals are typically insulin-resistant. The gross majority of Type 2 cases stem from lifestyle choices - CHOICES. Insulin sensitivity and Type 2 can certainly occur in some individuals without obvious causes but largely, something or somethings we do throughout our lives causes us to become diabetic due to our CHOICES.

So, unless someone truly believes that getting a cold or the sniffles caused them to live a live of alcohol abuse, Type 1 is out. Likewise, unless they're willing to accept that alcoholism is a disease of choice in the gross majority of people, Type 2 is out. Diabetes is a terrible choice of disease to liken alcoholism to, in my opinion.
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Old 01-07-2010, 05:11 PM
  # 170 (permalink)  
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Okay Gang, let's get back on to the topic of the thread.

Daphne posted that she had health concerns and was looking for advice on stopping drinking.
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Old 01-07-2010, 05:18 PM
  # 171 (permalink)  
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Old 01-08-2010, 12:13 AM
  # 172 (permalink)  
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decision

morning/evening where ever you are
read a bit more last night and have had a bit more self realization
thinking about my wonderful friends , sisters and awesome kids (they are really great kids ) I have decided I must try to grow up and put my health first
This does not come naturally to me
I am not much good at this mind body connection thing. I had an eating disorder where I would forcefully make myself vomit twice a day for around 10 years plus, so you can imagine that feeling physically dreadful does not bother me that much ( thus hangovers were just part of the deal I put up with and carried on normally)

I have abused my body over the years in various ways so am rather immune to feeling in touch with it so to speak

I was thinking of setting Monday as my start date for stopping booze. I have hardly drunk this week ( I know some people here thought that was a pathetic claim of success) and will try to have minimal alcohol over the weekend.

Reluctant in a way to set my self up with a start date as may not be successful. I will not lie about my drinking ( I have never hidden drink or pretended to others I don't drink ......quite the opposite strange eh) But honesty is a value I hold very strongly. when I gave up last time I kept having to explain I wasn't drinking which amused and bemused many as i was the "party animal" in our crowd. No problem with giving them a reason as said was my health and meds I was on.

Is it useful to set another target ? e.g I will abstain until end Jan or end Feb
Thats how I did the 6 weeks before i set my a target at 2 months so nearly made it!
I am struggling with longer term already I have a big social event at end Feb with friends that I cannot imagine not drinking at
I have a holiday in France in the summer with family and friends , one of the reasons we go is the french wine (and food)
Again that without the wine will not be the same

Sure you guys on here will have the experience and advice to help me tackle this
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Old 01-08-2010, 12:27 AM
  # 173 (permalink)  
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good morning daphne
just say to yourself 'ok. i wont drink today' dont even worry about parties, social events, burns night innit? over in scotland? just think of not having any TODAY, the more you worry about social events to come, the harder it will be,

now i'm off to have my blood pressure checked at the docs , another legacy of my drinking is my very high blood pressure,

take care Daphne
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Old 01-08-2010, 12:38 AM
  # 174 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by juliwuli View Post
good morning daphne
just say to yourself 'ok. i wont drink today' dont even worry about parties, social events, burns night innit? over in scotland? just think of not having any TODAY, the more you worry about social events to come, the harder it will be,

now i'm off to have my blood pressure checked at the docs , another legacy of my drinking is my very high blood pressure,

take care Daphne
thanks juli. High blood pressure YUP have that too an meds for 3 years now thats how found out about my liver as they do regular bloods once you are on meds
Good luck
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:08 AM
  # 175 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by daphne View Post
Hi there
sorry why use this in a post to me if you cannot explain it?
Step 4 sounded to me like some kind of confessional cleansing process? making lists of those you resent, things you have done ? who sees this list ? do you share it at a meeting or with a sponsor ??
Morning Daphne,
From my experience when people see the 12 steps, after the initial affirmations "I can't do the God thing as I am not religious", they then move on to say "I can't do Step 4 and I won't do Step 9"

When you read the steps on paper, it is not suprising. I did the same but I was taught that when you work through the steps in the correct order you will find you will be willing to do Step 4 after you have done Step 3. I found that to be true and I now pass that on to others.

I am not being secretive as all the literature is readily available, I am just saying to anyone who is interested in AA and the Steps that the only Step they should concern themselves with is Step 1. When they have done Step 1 they will know and be ready to do Step 2 - this is where a sponsor is invaluable to help you to understand and work through them.

And yes you do share your Step 4 inventory with god and with another person - that's Step 5.

Like many I considered myself an atheist. Now I do believe in god but it is a very personal, spiritual thing. I only ever talk about it to other people working the programme who understand. I never go to church and I consider religion to be far too exclusive for how I see god in my mind.

As to resentments and how they affect our drinking here is a quick illustration. Yesterday the dentist calls and asks if I can come in early in the next half hour. I ask if I can make it 35-40 mins to get there. No, it has to be 30 minutes or not at all. I have 5 minutes to get me and my son ready and out the door. I don't have time to do my hair or put on my make-up and really hope I don't bump into someone I know looking like this. So we fly down the road, slipping and sliding on the ice, freezing as it is windy and snowing heavily. We get there with a minute to spare.

I sit in the waiting area and I am multi-tasking - talking to my son, reading the posters, looking at the fish in the tank, observing other patients. But I also have one eye on the receptionist in a resentful glare. She is keeping me waiting!

While I think I am going about my life, the resentment towards the receptionist is growing. I could have had the 10 minutes I needed instead of spending them sitting in the waiting room. I'm mad!! And she doesn't even apologise nor make any eye contact with me. I'm even madder!!!

My alcholic mind is powerful enough to use an instance like this to tell me I deserve a drink after the day I have had or that it is good to unwind and chill out........all without me even realising anything was really wrong. I mean, it is no big deal is it, to have to wait for 10 minutes to see the dentist?

With recovery I realise this and quickly work through the steps and serenity is with me once more. What I learned doing Step 4 is that minor, insignificant and mundane instances in my life caused me great problem - it is not just all about big trauma and my childhood.



But having said that, whether it be the big bad stuff from the dark past or being robbed of 10 minutes of my life by the dentist, the solution is the same and it works


I hope that explains it more for you. Take care.


All quotes from the BB first edition.
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Old 01-08-2010, 04:45 AM
  # 176 (permalink)  
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Daphne, I wish you all the best, so much of what you say here is what I would have said 10 years ago.

I guess weak willed men just seem to run in my family, those who just let a "Habit" get way out of control before they do something about it. My father was an alcoholic, he also had a 21 year military career ending with him being the NCOIC (the very top enlisted person) of a NATO communications center. He was a government employee the last 10 years of his life. He had a clean police record. He was sober and loved it the last 19 years of his life.

My fathers, father was an alcoholic as well, he passed when I was very young, he died from cancer brought about by his drinking, he worked for the same company from the time he was in his early 20's until his death in his early 50s working his way up through the ranks the entire time. He had a clean police record.

Yes this man was an alcoholic who drank himself to death as he worked his way up the ladder, he was not a vagrant, nor a loser, he was a man who refused to see that his drinking was killing him.

My mothers father was an alcoholic as well, he was also a successful farmer and in the seafood industry as a successfull entrepanuer. In his 40s he saw that his drinking was ruining his life even though he was still successful, he quit drinking and lived a happy life into his mid 70s. He had a clean police record.

My younger brother is an alcoholic as well who saw the writing on the wall and quit 30 years ago, he quit early due to knowing the families history with alcohol. He worked for the same company (Major) company for over 30 years, and the last 10 years has been a successful independant contractor. He has a clean police record.

My son is an alcoholic as well, He was in the Marines for 4 years and honorably discharged with 30% medical disability. Once he got out of the Marines he took a position which he still holds with a major DOD contractor. He has been sober for over a year and loving life like he never did before. He has a clean police record.

Know looking at the above do you see a single unsuccessful person?

Do you see a single vagrant?

All of them were, or are alcoholics.

Not a one ever went to jail!

One of them DIED an early death!! What was different about him? He was successful in every part of his life except one, the one thing he refused to see until it was to late was his drinking was killing him, he went to his grave in a state of denial!

My dad died early as well, but he died from a cerebral hemmorage after being sober for 19 years.

You know one of the reasons I kept on drinking for years more then I should of is because my father and brother had both quit drinking so I figured that I too could just stop if I needed to. You see I was the man!!! I used my will power and intellect to succeed in every single thing I put my will and my intellect to!

Well after 25 years of drinking, starting off as a weekend warrior, and then slowly progressing to a daily drinker, and then sneaking a drink at work on occasion, I decided it was time to "Cut Back/Control" my drinking!

Oh I did great!!! At first I would only have 2 beers every day, WOW I was doing so well I upped it to 4.... that went SO well I upped it to 6... then I was drinking as much if not more then I was before I decided it was time to "Cut Back/Control" my drinking.

Well I did the "Cut Back/Control" my drinking for a while and finally admitting to myself this is not working, I decided I will simply quit drinking! At first I would quit for a couple of weeks and then convince myself I am not an alcoholic, there is no way an alcoholic can go 2 weeks with out a drink so I would go back to the "Cut Back/Control" my drinking.

This became a vicous cycle that lasted 5 years with the periods of sobriety becoming shorter and shorter. At about the 35 year point of the progression of my alcoholism, I could not go a single day without drinking, I drank when I did not want to drink!

I had crossed that invisible line that many alcoholics cross while living in a state of denial for years and years, the line of physical and mental addiction to alcohol and I had no idea I had crossed it.

I have NEVER been unemployed in 38 years, I have only worked for 3 different companies during that time, I NEVER got in trouble at work, I had exactly one DUI in those 40 years of drinking and that was 20 years before I quit drinking.

Daphne, I have been where you are at right now, I spent years denying it, rationalizing it, justifying it, convincing myself that I was in total control and was just as invincible to alcohol as I was to any thing else in life.

I can not figure out where you are getting this "Victim" BS from?

Yes you will hear the "Victim" BS from from an ACTIVE alcoholic who is for all intents and purpose still in denial, hell I felt like a victim in life for years while I was drinking.

Any one who is in REAL recovery from alcohol or drugs will tell you that they are not a VICTIM of anything, they accept full responsibility for ALL of thier actions, bot while they are drinking and since they quit.

Please quote one single person on SR who is in REAL recovery who has led you to believe they are a victim.

Now I know there are a lot of folks here really struggling to get clean and sober who may view them selfs as victims at times, but many of us when we were still drinking viewed our selfs as victims.

Being an alcoholic does not make a person a victim, those still active may think they are, but those recovering know they are not victims.

I wish you all the best in not drinking, I would suggest that if you find your self struggling to stay sober to check out recovery programs. If you don't like AA I really am not offended at all, check them all out hopefully you will find one that works for you other then AA.

One thing you will find when you are truly in recovery is that there is no reason at all to speak badly of ANY recovery method, especially when you have never even spent a day, little lone several months working the program.

One thing you will find here is that every person here in real recovery will not say a bad thing about another program, in recovery we share our experience, strength & hope we have found in recovery hoping top help others recover.

Downing any method of recovery helps no one.

Stating reasons that a certain program will not work for one even though they have ever tried it, is the same thing as saying "I would never send my child to that school even though one has never even walked into the building or spoken to anyone who has had a child got to that school.

Honesty, open minded, & willing, the keys to all recovery, no matter the program.
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:31 AM
  # 177 (permalink)  
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Daphne,

I'm glad you are planning to stop drinking.

I do want to make this point. Stopping drinking for 6 weeks and doing nothing else to change your life, will not help so much with recovery. Of course, it's still better for your physical health to not drink, but recovery involves a whole change of thinking.
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:45 AM
  # 178 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by intention View Post
Morning Daphne,


As to resentments and how they affect our drinking here is a quick illustration. Yesterday the dentist calls and asks if I can come in early in the next half hour. I ask if I can make it 35-40 mins to get there. No, it has to be 30 minutes or not at all. I have 5 minutes to get me and my son ready and out the door. I don't have time to do my hair or put on my make-up and really hope I don't bump into someone I know looking like this. So we fly down the road, slipping and sliding on the ice, freezing as it is windy and snowing heavily. We get there with a minute to spare.

I sit in the waiting area and I am multi-tasking - talking to my son, reading the posters, looking at the fish in the tank, observing other patients. But I also have one eye on the receptionist in a resentful glare. She is keeping me waiting!

While I think I am going about my life, the resentment towards the receptionist is growing. I could have had the 10 minutes I needed instead of spending them sitting in the waiting room. I'm mad!! And she doesn't even apologise nor make any eye contact with me. I'm even madder!!!

My alcholic mind is powerful enough to use an instance like this to tell me I deserve a drink after the day I have had or that it is good to unwind and chill out........all without me even realising anything was really wrong. I mean, it is no big deal is it, to have to wait for 10 minutes to see the dentist?

With recovery I realise this and quickly work through the steps and serenity is with me once more. What I learned doing Step 4 is that minor, insignificant and mundane instances in my life caused me great problem - it is not just all about big trauma and my childhood.



But having said that, whether it be the big bad stuff from the dark past or being robbed of 10 minutes of my life by the dentist, the solution is the same and it works


I hope that explains it more for you. Take care.


All quotes from the BB first edition.
Hi thanks for clarifying what you call resentments and I would call stressful situations. Alcohol is a very common way of dealing with stress (long or short term stress) That is a well known well evidenced fact. You would not need AA or any "big book" written in the 1930's to tell you that surely?
Take care
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:07 AM
  # 179 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tazman53 View Post
Daphne, I wish you all the best, so much of what you say here is what I would have said 10 years ago.

Downing any method of recovery helps no one.

Stating reasons that a certain program will not work for one even though they have ever tried it, is the same thing as saying "I would never send my child to that school even though one has never even walked into the building or spoken to anyone who has had a child got to that school.

Honesty, open minded, & willing, the keys to all recovery, no matter the program.
Hi there
I did not mean those "recovered" (wording fits the disease model) were still victims? I said the disease model encourages people to see themselves as ILL (victim role) who need CURED
I also never suggested alcoholics are poor or vagrants! Quite the opposite I said all drinkers are unique individuals , everyone has an unique experience.
The problem I have with AA evangelical stance is those members of AA assume THEIR experience is the same as other people's who drink
I think that is narrow minded patronising and does not demonstrate true empathy.
Just because your drinking followed a certain pattern does not mean others will. Its reductionist and does not reflect the diversity of alcohol misuse.

I have read lots about AA now and have worked in the past with a few workers who have been through the programme. The issues with these workers as professionals in the field, was they lacked objectivity as they assumed that the drinkers they worked with were just like them, and would end up like them without the saviour of AA/god.

I am a little insulted by the suggestion I am closed minded. Read a lot on the internet that AA as an organisation does not take any criticism well.
The difference between you and I is that I believe critical anyalsis of any method of recovery is a positive thing. Its a bit more complex than "downing" an method.
Also to suggest nobody can understand something fully without direct experience is surely wrong .To use your example, I can research the best school for my child in great depth, talk to others etc without having to walk through the doors .
People can make informed choices and give sound opinions without having experienced it directly. Infact it often leads to a more objective viewpoint than those who have been through something themselves.
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:25 AM
  # 180 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by daphne View Post
The problem I have with AA evangelical stance is those members of AA assume THEIR experience is the same as other people's who drink
I think that is narrow minded patronising and does not demonstrate true empathy.

I have read lots about AA now and have worked with a few people who have been through the programme.

Issues with them as professional workers in the field, was they lacked objectivity as the assumed that the drinkers they worked with were just like them and would end up like them without the saviour of AA/god.

I am a little insulted by the suggestion I am closed minded.
Actually, when it comes to AA, I think you are... I base that on they way you use words like evangelical... saviour... and some other preconceived notions about AA that you have...

But that's OK... I'm probably a bit closed minded about some stuff here and there. You are entitled to your opinion.... but keep in mind is only that... your opinion... just like mine is only an opinion.

However the idea that an AA thinks that their own experience is the same as others is exactly wrong and misses the WHOLE POINT of the fellowship... that's not just my opinion. What's your experience?

AA is not for everybody and you can recover without it.

Mark
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