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Old 01-08-2010, 08:39 AM
  # 181 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Cubile75 View Post
Actually, when it comes to AA, I think you are... I base that on they way you use words like evangelical... saviour... and some other preconceived notions about AA that you have...

But that's OK... I'm probably a bit closed minded about some stuff here and there. You are entitled to your opinion.... but keep in mind is only that... your opinion... just like mine is only an opinion.

However the idea that an AA thinks that their own experience is the same as others is exactly wrong and misses the WHOLE POINT of the fellowship... that's not just my opinion. What's your experience?

AA is not for everybody and you can recover without it.

Mark
I was only responding to Tazman as he and others keep telling me..its the same road , you'll end up like I did in the end. That is saying their experience is the same, or at least the outcome of any alcohol addiction is the same for ALL an universal truth.
The words I have used to describe AA are not my bias view but directly from what I have read. One of the steps is clearly evangelical and the foundations of the whole organisation is rooted in evangelical religion. So whats wrong with admitting that? Either that or I have been reading about another AA!?!
I know AA is not the only route but the majority of posters suggested that it was the way to go. Ot was suggested that it was my denial (rather than my critical reflections) which was preventing me from seeing that.
Nobody has yet explained anyother models to me?
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by daphne View Post
Nobody has yet explained anyother models to me?
Thank you for that question... So often I feel like a lot of these discussions end up all about AA... people take this position, that position and it seems that it always degenerates in some kind of AA slam-fest... And if I post, I sometimes regret my participation in it...

And I think to myself... Where are the advocates for other programs... for other models... ??? There ARE other models and treatments, aren't there?

Maybe those who could share their experience aren't on SR?

Maybe we should get back to your original question, what were you asking???

Mark
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:02 AM
  # 183 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Cubile75 View Post
Thank you for that question... So often I feel like a lot of these discussions end up all about AA... people take this position, that position and it seems that it always degenerates in some kind of AA slam-fest... And if I post, I sometimes regret my participation in it...

And I think to myself... Where are the advocates for other programs... for other models... ??? There ARE other models and treatments, aren't there?

Maybe those who could share their experience aren't on SR?

Maybe we should get back to your original question, what were you asking???

Mark
good idea Mark
see post 173
looking for help with Monday's giving up plan !
How long you been "dry" ? and was it via AA?
thanks
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:04 AM
  # 184 (permalink)  
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Hi Daphne,

Originally Posted by daphne View Post
Hi thanks for clarifying what you call resentments and I would call stressful situations. Alcohol is a very common way of dealing with stress (long or short term stress) That is a well known well evidenced fact. You would not need AA or any "big book" written in the 1930's to tell you that surely?
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True, but I don't go to AA or read the Big Book to tell me what the problem is .......I go for the solution.
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:08 AM
  # 185 (permalink)  
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Nobody has yet explained anyother models to me?
I am sure that there are people here who have a number of years sober using other models that have worked for them, as a matter of fact several of them have already shared on this thread.

Here is what I would suggest, why not actually try working a program, any program, here is a link to a list of them http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...resources.html

Pick one, any one you like, commit to workiing it for let us say 90 days every day to start with.

You say you know AA because you read the book?

What if you read a book on swimming and you did not know how to swim to start with, after finishing the book would you be able to just jump into the ocean to swim?

Have you read about any other programs?

Have you worked any other programs?

I am sure every one would love to hear what your experience is in them as well.

Daphne I wish you all the best, I hope you do find good long term sobriety.

You asked for advice, I only give advice on things I have a great deal of REAL TIME experience with, I find it not to be useful to sit around and tell people this didn't work for me and I do not like this because of that.

I have tried to lead you to good solid water that helped me, but I can not make you or any one else drink it if they do not want it. I have passed on to you what saved my life, there are others seeking advice with an open mind that my experience, strength & hope may be of some type of use to.

If you ever think about AA as a possiblity, please feel free to PM me, I will spend far more time sharing with you my experience, strength & hope I and millions of others have found in AA.

Just one parting note, about half of the folks in AA are or were aethiest or agnostics.

I have been to church twice, except for a wedding in the last 20 years.
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:09 AM
  # 186 (permalink)  
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Oh yea thanx...

It's funny... important social events... drinks... hmmm

My wife likes a white wine every night before bed, a tall one... In 25 years of marriage I can count on one hand the number of these where she drank anything other than diet coke or water... wedding receptions, graduations, parties...

Yet at one time I couldn't imagine attending those events and not having a few...

Maybe that's one of the important differences between my wife and I... she's not alcoholic.

Mark
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:46 AM
  # 187 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tazman53 View Post
I am sure that there are people here who have a number of years sober using other models that have worked for them, as a matter of fact several of them have already shared on this thread.

Here is what I would suggest, why not actually try working a program, any program, here is a link to a list of them http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...resources.html

Pick one, any one you like, commit to workiing it for let us say 90 days every day to start with.

You say you know AA because you read the book?

What if you read a book on swimming and you did not know how to swim to start with, after finishing the book would you be able to just jump into the ocean to swim?

Have you read about any other programs?

Have you worked any other programs?

I am sure every one would love to hear what your experience is in them as well.

Daphne I wish you all the best, I hope you do find good long term sobriety.

You asked for advice, I only give advice on things I have a great deal of REAL TIME experience with, I find it not to be useful to sit around and tell people this didn't work for me and I do not like this because of that.

I have tried to lead you to good solid water that helped me, but I can not make you or any one else drink it if they do not want it. I have passed on to you what saved my life, there are others seeking advice with an open mind that my experience, strength & hope may be of some type of use to.

If you ever think about AA as a possiblity, please feel free to PM me, I will spend far more time sharing with you my experience, strength & hope I and millions of others have found in AA.

Just one parting note, about half of the folks in AA are or were aethiest or agnostics.

I have been to church twice, except for a wedding in the last 20 years.
Thanks for the time and patience with this debate
appreciated the link will look into later
best wishes
d xx
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:48 AM
  # 188 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Cubile75 View Post
Oh yea thanx...

It's funny... important social events... drinks... hmmm

My wife likes a white wine every night before bed, a tall one... In 25 years of marriage I can count on one hand the number of these where she drank anything other than diet coke or water... wedding receptions, graduations, parties...

Yet at one time I couldn't imagine attending those events and not having a few...

Maybe that's one of the important differences between my wife and I... she's not alcoholic.

Mark
so how long has it been Mark? do you miss it ? honestly ?
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:56 AM
  # 189 (permalink)  
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I have to say that you are being a good sport about this excellent discussion.

I miss not being an alcoholic.

My experience is that I did not always obsess about drinking and did not always compulsively drink it. My experience was that I always liked a cold beer when working around the yard, or a drink when out to dinner... and I could leave it at that. Somewhere along the way... I began to drink when I didn't want to... or I'd have a couple of drinks before we left the house to go out for dinner... then have one or two more... Then more when I got home....It wasn't special anymore, it became necessary. Sometimes I'd wake in the night, and go out to the car and take a swig of the vodka I had stashed, there in the moonlight. Alone.

I do not miss that.

Make sense?

Mark

Oh, I've not had a drink since 9/14/08....
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:26 AM
  # 190 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Cubile75 View Post
I have to say that you are being a good sport about this excellent discussion.

I miss not being an alcoholic.

My experience is that I did not always obsess about drinking and did not always compulsively drink it. My experience was that I always liked a cold beer when working around the yard, or a drink when out to dinner... and I could leave it at that. Somewhere along the way... I began to drink when I didn't want to... or I'd have a couple of drinks before we left the house to go out for dinner... then have one or two more... Then more when I got home....It wasn't special anymore, it became necessary. Sometimes I'd wake in the night, and go out to the car and take a swig of the vodka I had stashed, there in the moonlight. Alone.

I do not miss that.

Make sense?

Mark

Oh, I've not had a drink since 9/14/08....

WOW over a year really great Mark
So did you stop on your own? with AA ? how was your wife about it all?
Where are you from ? sorry I am just interested . You seem like a really sound cool guy
d x
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:36 AM
  # 191 (permalink)  
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I quit because I had to, to keep my job.

I am happy and comfortable in my own skin, have no burning active resentments and look forward to the future.... because I've recovered.

Two entirely separate things.... for me that is. Non alcoholics can just quit if they have to and walk away... no big deal..... alcoholics have some work to do after putting down the bottle. I have done some work... yes, the 12 steps .

Do I have a passing wistful thought about having a drink at dinner or a cold beer on a hot day?... of course!!... do those passing thoughts ruin my day or even the moment... no they don't.

My wife? It's been an adjustment, of course... God love her... what I put her through... And yes, at first it was very hard... nights by the fire with the music..... or when I first got back from rehab and I was still white knuckling it and I'd hear the corkscrew getting taking out of the drawer...

Now I have my herbal tea, she her white wine and we watch late night on the TV, together.... and nights by the fire, yes, we still have those

Mark
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:38 AM
  # 192 (permalink)  
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One thing jumps out at me about the unoriginality of this thread. It is an in depth discussion about one person's opinion of recovery without having any experience with recovery. And that's cool. It's how we learn from others.

But here is the reality of my own recovery. My opinions don't matter. For example, my opinion of AA is that it's a big placebo, back door to religion, brainwashing, dependent on AA for life, crutch for weak minded people. My experience with AA is that it's kept me sober for years and given me a life way better than I had ever known before. It fundamentally changed my reaction to my life. And with that change, the drink problem was gone.

I could have held onto my opinion and never had the experience. Sure glad I didn't do that. The only reason I was willing to suspend my opinion was that I saw it working for others. I saw a bunch of people who talked about drinking just like I did. They understood from their own experience how crazy it was for me to keep drinking. And they seemed happy and comfortable, and they hadn't drank in years. I could not deny the proof of their example. It didn't matter what I thought or believed or what my opinion was. They stood as living proof of how to get sober and be happy about it.

That proof is not limited to AA. If what I'm doing stops working some day, I'll again look to those who have been successful. Dee and Anna are both great examples of people who are sober and seem to be happy about it (even passionate and enthusiastic about it). Instead of debating what they believe and what I believe, I would do what they have done.

Daphne, I'm not sure why you are here. Presumedly, you think you may have a drinking problem, or at least want to consider whether or not you do. Welcome, you're in the right place for those considerations. Almost everyone will agree that moderation has not worked well for them. Almost everyone will agree that their drinking progressed over time. And almost everyone will agree that with that progression, they had less and less control over their drinking.

You may think that every drinker is unique and we all have our own experience, but generally, the things I mentioned are pretty universal for everyone here.
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Cubile75 View Post
I quit because I had to, to keep my job.

I am happy and comfortable in my own skin, have no burning active resentments and look forward to the future.... because I've recovered.

Two entirely separate things.... for me that is. Non alcoholics can just quit if they have to and walk away... no big deal..... alcoholics have some work to do after putting down the bottle. I have done some work... yes, the 12 steps .

Do I have a passing wistful thought about having a drink at dinner or a cold beer on a hot day?... of course!!... do those passing thoughts ruin my day or even the moment... no they don't.

My wife? It's been an adjustment, of course... God love her... what I put her through... And yes, at first it was very hard... nights by the fire with the music..... or when I first got back from rehab and I was still white knuckling it and I'd hear the corkscrew getting taking out of the drawer...

Now I have my herbal tea, she her white wine and we watch late night on the TV, together.... and nights by the fire, yes, we still have those

Mark
Its great you have the support from your partner . I know its about personal change but it so involves those close to you.
I know what you mean about sorting out the underlying stuff. Suppose my view was you tackle the reasons first and then there will be no need/desire to drink. What lot of people say on here tackle the drink (symptom) first and then work on causes.
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:00 AM
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The experience of the vast majority of real alcoholics is that it doesn't work that way. Once the alcoholism is active and present, it always is, regardless of whether the underlying stuff is cleaned up.

But we all, all human beings, have underlying stuff, don't we? What happened with the alcoholic??... well, that's how many of us learned to deal with it, we drank... non alcoholics don't, at least not alcoholically...

Mark
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:04 AM
  # 195 (permalink)  
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Hi Daphne, I missed most of the rest thread after I posted on it but have been catching up now
What lot of people say on here tackle the drink (symptom) first and then work on causes.
I did that too, I had unresolved issues I was dragging along for years, and to some extent drinking was self-medicating. I never could have adressed them properly while I was drinking. I needed a clear head for this, and I needed my mind and my emotions to be unadultered by the numbing effects of alcohol. There were things I had to go all the way through to feel better again, and with alcohol this wouldn't have worked for me. So I am on team "tackle the symptom in order to be able to adress hte problem"
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:14 AM
  # 196 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by keithj View Post
One thing jumps out at me about the unoriginality of this thread. It is an in depth discussion about one person's opinion of recovery without having any experience with recovery. And that's cool. It's how we learn from others.

But here is the reality of my own recovery. My opinions don't matter. For example, my opinion of AA is that it's a big placebo, back door to religion, brainwashing, dependent on AA for life, crutch for weak minded people. My experience with AA is that it's kept me sober for years and given me a life way better than I had ever known before. It fundamentally changed my reaction to my life. And with that change, the drink problem was gone.

I could have held onto my opinion and never had the experience. Sure glad I didn't do that. The only reason I was willing to suspend my opinion was that I saw it working for others. I saw a bunch of people who talked about drinking just like I did. They understood from their own experience how crazy it was for me to keep drinking. And they seemed happy and comfortable, and they hadn't drank in years. I could not deny the proof of their example. It didn't matter what I thought or believed or what my opinion was. They stood as living proof of how to get sober and be happy about it.

That proof is not limited to AA. If what I'm doing stops working some day, I'll again look to those who have been successful. Dee and Anna are both great examples of people who are sober and seem to be happy about it (even passionate and enthusiastic about it). Instead of debating what they believe and what I believe, I would do what they have done.

Daphne, I'm not sure why you are here. Presumedly, you think you may have a drinking problem, or at least want to consider whether or not you do. Welcome, you're in the right place for those considerations. Almost everyone will agree that moderation has not worked well for them. Almost everyone will agree that their drinking progressed over time. And almost everyone will agree that with that progression, they had less and less control over their drinking.

You may think that every drinker is unique and we all have our own experience, but generally, the things I mentioned are pretty universal for everyone here.
Sorry but I cannot relate to your view at all .....you are saying the ends justify giving up any exploring of the "means" giving up your opinions and views. Now its sounding cult like again
Believe and you will be "cured"!
Why am I here? to look for advice on cutting drink out , share views, debate the issues and learn
Why are you here?
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:15 AM
  # 197 (permalink)  
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You can't just fix the problems and expect the alcohol addiction to go away. Once you've crossed the invisible line, you can never go back. If only we knew where the line was before we crossed it, but we never do.

But, if you just stop drinking and don't fix the problems, then it's going to be very, very hard to stay stopped.
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:20 AM
  # 198 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Cubile75 View Post
The experience of the vast majority of real alcoholics is that it doesn't work that way. Once the alcoholism is active and present, it always is, regardless of whether the underlying stuff is cleaned up.

But we all, all human beings, have underlying stuff, don't we? What happened with the alcoholic??... well, that's how many of us learned to deal with it, we drank... non alcoholics don't, at least not alcoholically...

Mark
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people resort to all sorts of "behaviours" to cope with unresolved issues. No they do not all drink. Some take drugs, smoke, eat too much, starve, obsessively clean, go to the gym every day ,work 24/7, destroy their relationships, are violent, are controlling, are passive, get depressed, obssess about trains, obssess about planes, have fetishes, have phobias, never leave the house etc etc etc
Why is drinking so different from other behaviours?
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by littlestranger View Post
Hi Daphne, I missed most of the rest thread after I posted on it but have been catching up now


I did that too, I had unresolved issues I was dragging along for years, and to some extent drinking was self-medicating. I never could have adressed them properly while I was drinking. I needed a clear head for this, and I needed my mind and my emotions to be unadultered by the numbing effects of alcohol. There were things I had to go all the way through to feel better again, and with alcohol this wouldn't have worked for me. So I am on team "tackle the symptom in order to be able to adress hte problem"
Surely that depends on the amount of alcohol one is consuming . The degree of your habit. Some drink so much that it effects reasoning and thought processes to the extent they cannot explore their problems
Others do not
Hate to say again but there is a huge diversity within the range of "problem drinkers"
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:29 AM
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Because we liked it. It felt good. It was fun. Make the world go away....

Drinking kills people, destroys relationships, ends careers and for the "high bottom" alcoholic... takes all the fun out of life, it's isolating...

But I have no experience with violence, phobias and obsessions other than alcohol so I can't comment further. And, beside, what purpose would it serve...

Mark
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