Jadmack25

My RABF has been forced to attend AA in the past while in rehab programs, and the best sober time he managed was 2 years. He is petrified of speaking in groups, and reckons that a few times he only managed by having a load of vodka before it was his turn, which seems to negate the whole purpose to my mind.

He sees a counselor from D & A, every so often, reads a bit, talks with me more than ever before, and is busy coping with newly diagnosed Ulcerative Colitis. He tried the trick of once turning up at my door, drunk and with 2 AA chaps in tow, to get me on side and shift my anger at him.....had no intention of going to a meeting of course.

He only pulled that stunt ONCE. His BIL is an AA addict, as sober 27 years and admits he gets to 5 meetings a week because he gets agitated without one. He also bends the ear of any person with a drink in hand, and p*ssed me off by having a go at me for having a drink.
He believed I should have ceased drinking myself in support of RABF being sober, an idea that I found infuriating and said so. As RABF said after that episode, "he's not on his own, and it just is not for me".

Frankly I don't care what works or what he does to stay sober, as long as he is happy and living a better way than he was, and that is his choice, as is choice of method.

I used to resent that the drunks got the attention, and help flooded in for them, but the family were left out of the situation. Often the sober recovering A, went home to a bitter, angry and resentful wife and kids, and it wasn't long before he was back to drinking and family felt justified.

I am close enough to the Autumn of my life, not to want to waste a minute in a Winter of Discontent.

kiki5711

That's the biggest bunch of bull crap I've ever heard. Keep telling yourself that and make your own choice to live with it, but DON"T try to feed it to others cause it's not true.

stilllearning

"I think their struggle is worse than mine, as I do have a choice and they don't so much or at least it is much harder."

This is the nut of my feeling a bit torn. I am both. I honestly think that my codependent bottom was harder than my alcoholic bottom. I think that both are diseases - and in both instances, you can choose recovery. As with any disease you have to treat it. But I was, quite honestly, blown away by how quickly I descended into a pit of chaos, despair and pain when I was back around a loved one with active alcoholism. I felt utterly helpless.

It was a huge gift because I started to look at the roots of that. Really look - not just wheel out the line that one of my parents was an alcoholic. And you know wht? I DID NOT have a choice as a child. Grown ups get to choose to stay or leave - might not feel like we have a choice (that's the disease part) but we can choose. I relied completely on someone who was in the grips of this disease as a child and it profooundly affected the way I handle everything. And every relationship I've ever had, even when alcohol hasn't been a factor.

For me, unwrapping that and trying to unlearn those behaviors is harder than getting sober was. That's my truth. Doesn't mean that I can't feel for people who are still in the grips of this disease on either side of the fence. But it goes back to what I meant about there being no winners. Nobody has it harder than anyone else - everyone has the same opportunities to get well - it just has to become painful enough. Had I not given up my crutch (alcohol) I would still be anaesthetizing all those feelings dating back to childhood. At least now I have a chance at a full, healthy life. But I think I would have really missed out had i not finally staggered into al-anon.

SL

Still Waters

It doesn't feel like we have a choice because we're taught "till death do us part"...

and we're lied to "this will never happen again, I promise!"..

and we're fed a line of bunk by the rehab people, "this is what they need, we can fix them"..

and we're bullied by family "How can you abandon your [insert relation to alcoholic here]?"...

and we lie to ourselves "He/she's better, they say they only had [insert number of drinks] today!"...

That's not disease, that's social programming/culture and ignorance. I was ignorant of the alcoholic dynamic. If you don't expect your loved on to lie/cheat/steal then you're not going to "see" it right away.

We all have choices, every single one of us. We just have to wake up to that fact.

sesh

Hi Kiki,
I don't think I was trying to feed you or anyone else here anything, I was just stating my own opinion, you might take it or leave it, so no need to jump all over me because of it. I can see your hurt, and I'm sorry for it, but it has nothing to do with me.
Yes, I do believe it is a disease, and I do believe my RAH's struggles are much worse than mine. I've seen my dad die at the age of 53 due to alcoholism. I've seen my RAH nearly die from liver cirrhosis, I could see he knew he was dieing and yet he was unable to do anything about it. I watch him struggle everyday with his sobriety. I have a choice there too, I can make it about myself: OH, God how can he do this to me, or I can understand that he is primarly doing it to himself. It is not personal. I'm a grown up, I can chose to stay with him or leave, I'm not staying because I can't leave, I'm staying as I want to be with him and share my life with him as long as he is sober and in recovery. If he starts drinking again I will not stay, because I don't want active alcoholism in my life, but I'd still feel the empathy for him, as again he is doing it to himself, not me, regardless of how is that painful to me.
Do I need to say that this is only my opinion and not advice to others on what they should do in their own lives or how they should feel and think.

And Still Waters, I don't really know if codependancy is clasified as disease. I personally don't feel it that way. To me it feels more like behavior patters, that I can learn slowly how to overcome. Again JMHO.

So I just wanted to say: peace, I'm entitled to my own opionion, and it wasn't my intention to provoke or trigger anyone. I just know since I've let go of my own anger and resentmet my life became much more happier. And since I think that is our common goal (hapiness) I was only sharing my opinion, so take what you like and leave the rest, no need to call my opinion the biggest bunch of bull crap or whatever, as to be honest it is inpolite and insulting.

skippernlilg

I think you're right, Sesh. If one can understand it as a disease, then one can arrive at empathy.

I lived with 2 active adult alcoholics in my lifetime. I lived with one child with cancer. I have empathy for the child with cancer.

I have empathy, too, for people who have struggles. People come to me often because they say I'm not judgemental. I want to be empathetic. I believe there are people, though, who CHOOSE their struggles, and for those people, I have no empathy.

I have an example: there are people I have taken into my home from the streets. Not addicted, not alcoholic. I have seen some pick up the resources available to them and SHINE. I have seen others go to live in their cars. I have no more empathy for those car-living people. They did not utilize their resources. Too bad. That's sickness right there.

I'm a single mom raising a fantastic child. I quit my career after 10 years (risking my very career and future monetary gain) to stay at home and live off my savings just to raise this child. I now do volunteer work in the community and own a small business on the side. Lucky? No. Things handed to me? Nope.

So, Sesh, I think you're right. Maybe if I thought of alcoholism as a disease, and not a sickness, then maybe, just maybe I could find more empathy.

I'm not at that point yet.

Still Waters

And yet, the cure is the same.

I don't know sesh. al-Anon and AA stress honesty - and I think calling a choice a disease is dishonest. For me.

skippernlilg

Thank you very much, Sesh, for pointing out that RABF is doing this to himself and I should not take it so personally. That's true. The detachment step is obviously not complete for me.

I wonder, then, when *does* the alcoholic ever learn that his/her actions affect others? And why do I keep waiting to see that epiphany in any of the alcoholics I've known?

Once I can get to some level of understanding, I suppose my level of acceptance will grow and then my empathy will be more evident.

I appreciate the thoughtful answers and discussion on this thread. This is very helpful to me.

Thumper

I don't think it ever happens while they are still drinking.

skippernlilg

What you say has also been my experience. But then, I'm digging into my subconscious to try to find a recovered alcoholic's example, and I just can't.

As an ACoA, my bio-dad did come to me to apologize for his wrongs, and he was somewhat specific. He left out a whole lot of what I had experienced, and he, to this day, continues to mow over the people in his life as a Dry Drunk.

With my RABF, he seems remorseful, true, but then I think I see glimmers of the same hurtful behaviors. He made a good point the other day, though. He said, "I'm not perfect, and I may do something that disappoints you; but I don't want to hurt you anymore."

I heard the words, but it's almost like I'm very pessimistic...just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

When I looked at those people in AA the other day, they couldn't possibly know it, but their words cut me to the bone. I resented each one of them.

Still Waters

I've not seen any feelings of remorse, or any responsibility taking in my STBXAH. Certainly I never heard anything resembling an apology.

Thumper

I have known alcoholics in true recovery (although not in a personal relationship with them). You can see by their actions, their approach to life. They are not these completely self centered people. I don't imagine they got there in a month of sobriety but they got there - and they still went to AA faithfully even though they had been sober for years. Going to AA regularly does not make people self centered or self serving any more then going to church once a week, or to al anon, or to the gym three mornings a week does. It is part of being a healthy and whole person for some people.

It is when AA is used as a way to escape other life responsibilities/stressors that it is a problem - in my book - which no one has to read but me It is about balance and everyone has a different idea about how things balance out, both the alcoholic and the family members.

There is a difference between taking care of oneself and being self-centered.

My ex continues to blame everything on me and doesn't acknowledge or even seem to understand the basic principles of responsibility when it comes to our relationship or the one between him and the kids. He doesn't get it. He lives in denial. He has taken alcoholism out of our relationship so still sends me things about not understanding why I didn't make this work etc. etc. He is not in recovery and I've finally come to realize it is unreasonable of me to expect anything different. He will never be different and so I can let that one go and by letting it go the bitterness and resentment were swept away. I guess maybe I do have some empathy for alcoholism. It takes so much from people. It is truely sad. I dont' feel sorry for people though. They are making choices. Choices I do not understand or agree with and they can choose differently if they want to. For my ex, I see zero signs that he wants to choose differently. He just wants different outcomes. Not the same thing.

Summerpeach

In my 12 step codependecy group yesterday, the group leader said "we are all here for the same reason, we all have a disease called codepedency"

I totall disagree with this.
I have lupus and I am also codependent. Lupus is a disease I didn't get to make a choice on but my behaviors to act out in a codependent way, are very much MY choice.

Maybe because I had panic disorder or maybe because I was the 3rd child, or maybe because I was always too sensitive, kind and giving person, I developed these unhealthy "need to save everyone" patterns, but I can tell you for sure, codependency IS NOT a disease. It's a pattern of unheatlhy thoughts and mental issues.
I am a codie because of XYZ and the girl sitting with me in the 12 step group is an angry lesbian who hated her mother, so she has another reason for being codie.

IMO, addictions are the same thing. I don't think the addictions is the actual disease, but stem from underlying mental disorders, just like codependency. Codie and addictions are the symptoms. Most addicts are also codie, by the way!
The addict choses a bottle, a joint or sex to block their mental pains and the codie blocks out pain with people and fixing.
It's a known fact that most addicts have underlying mental illness. I read a study that 75% of addicts are sociopaths. I believe it!
It's proven many addicts have personality disorders, depression, anxiety etc
The mental condition is the disease, not the addiction. The addiction in their "self medications"
I'm sure if they did a study on codies, they would find out the same.
But all the attention is put on addictions, because they are the most destructive to society.

I can't say I feel a ton of empathy when their sick actions ruins others lives, I do however, feel pity and sadness that many of them live in such denial over illnesses that CAN be cured. What does Dr Phil say "you can't fix what you don't acknowledge"
Though, sociopaths cannot be cured.

I feel little empathy for those who refuse to help themselves. If an addict can get to work, keep a job, drive a car, raise kids, then they are more than capable of facing their demons
Those who don't want to, really, are just weak and pitiful in my eyes.

All those men and women you see in AA and Al Anon, are not weak and or pitiful since they are trying to ackowledge their issues.

Summerpeach

it would be great if some RA or active A's would add their wisdom to this thread. This topic is an important tool in recovery for the A's and the C's

Thumper

They have. Well maybe not active A's - I don't know about that one. I think I've had my fill of an active A's wisdom, lol.

LexieCat

I've been sober for two years now, after being married to two alcoholics. One got sober and stayed that way (30 years, now) and the other went back to drinking.

The one who stayed sober is still an active participant in AA, works the Steps in his day-to-day life, sponsors several guys at any given time. He is also a good husband to his wife, a good dad to our kids. He has made up many times over for the harm he did to me when he was drinking. I remember one of the things he did toward the end of his drinking was to take my car without permission, drive it drunk (he was 20 and never had a license) and crashed it into a tree. He got sober about a year later, and he repaid me every penny of the blue book value of the car. He supported me through law school. He has been a great supporter of my own recovery.

I often hear at AA meetings men and women expressing regret and remorse for harms they have done to their families. I see them actively working to make amends for those harms.

So, yeah, lots of people DO make amends for what they have done. Or try--some people only want the alcoholic out of their lives, and those wishes are respected, too.

In any given AA meeting of any size, you are likely to find those actively working their recovery, and those who just show up for meetings. The meetings ARE important--helping others to recover is an important part of our own recovery in Step 12.

I completely understand and sympathize with the bitterness people fresh from their wounds feel, and I can't tell anyone else how to feel, either. I do know that healthy, full recovery is possible. And even with that, people aren't perfect. We are still going to hurt others occasionally. If we are working a program, we try to acknowledge when we are wrong, and do what we can to make amends.

Chino

I'm in need of enlightenment here. I've never heard or been taught there is a cure for either.

Still Waters

Recovery is the same as cure, to my mind.

Summerpeach

Thanks Lexie, great post. Your ex sounds like a good man.

We're at step 9 (amends) in my step group, and yesterdays group was doing the actual exercise of writing out step 9.
It was pretty powerful!

Summerpeach

true
There is no "Cure" for being human, We all f*ck up and we all need steps.
Steps should be taught in high school to kids to build their spirit and self worth.