Chino

I don't see recovery as the same for both. Addicts have to abstain from and avoid a substance. The only way codies/enablers can abstain and avoid people is to withdraw from society. Otherwise we're surrounded and have to learn to cope.

LexieCat

It's not exactly the same for both, but I think healing of a relationship is most likely when both partners are seriously working on recovery. I think if I had stayed involved with Al-Anon it might have made a difference in my first marriage. I left him, basically because I was feeling (I thought) "stuck" in the relationship. It's complicated, and looking at my part in that whole thing is something I have to do in my recovery now. I think my attitude at the time was, well, he's sober, he's a good guy, nothin' wrong with me, now. I think maybe if I had actually WORKED the Steps at that time, I might have had my head screwed on a lot straighter.

Amazingly, I was actually resentful of how "good" he was. I used to think that my family and everyone else liked him better than they did me. And maybe they did, I know I was so wrapped up in myself (budding alcoholic that I was, though I seldom drank during my marriage to him) that I wasn't that pleasant to be around--not that great a friend or family member.

As I said, this is something I am going to have to face, and own, in my own recovery. Having been an alcoholic AND the frustrated partner of two of them, neither role is a day at the beach.

Learn2Live

I avoid resentment. I own my side of the street, I mind my own business, I let those who are able take care of their own selves, and I do not see whatzoccurs in this world as either within my control or as 'fair' or 'unfair.' To be resentful, and to wallow in it, is a CHOICE. Call it whatever you want, alcoholism is rampant and devastating, and it is not going away. I'm a true believer that we all do the best we can with the cards we are dealt. If you want to hate and despise people for that, that is not a healthy or serene way of living or thinking.

Babyblue

I don't have any resentments at all. If it works for them, great. I won't disparage that. But they need to tone down that high on life stuff. I get where it comes from, because it is a dark and lonely place to be an addict but to hear them talk you'd think they moved to TellyTubby Land. I think that type of excessive giddyness can be a hinderance to true recovery. Here is why: Life is hard. It is painful and messy. I get through it without anyone cheering me on. I get through it in the darkest days without drinking or hurting others. I don't skip through the lily fields every morning to work. You have to learn to accept the lows and work through them. That is what being sober is all about.

And for some of his friends, AA does become another addiction. But I suppose it is better to be addicted to recovery than a substance in the long run.

sesh

Thank you L2L, this is such a beuatiful post. Hitting that thanks button just didn't seem enough.

I believe the wisdom you shared is as healthy as it can get. But it also takes a considerable amount of pain and work on yourself to get there.
So, thank you.

iloveme

forgiveness, detachment

kiki5711

:rotfxko

MissFixit

I too had and still struggle with resentment towards my exA. He and I have not spoken in a long time, but he rears his head in my life semi-frequently.

In my mind, the man owes me a HUGE apology for lying to our friends, my family and me. His lies damaged my relationships with other people. I think at this point everyone pretty much sees him for what he is, but so much time has past and so many lies were told that t just is what it is. He kept a bunch of my things which still bothers me. I have long since given up thinking that I will get them back, but the total lack for respect from him given the cheating and lying too. Why keep my stuff? No boundaries. Everything is about him and his needs/wants/emotions. Others are secondary if they are even relevant to him. Major self absorbtion. My last resentful area with him is that he told me that he would help pay for me to go back to school. I was working full time and unable to return to school. He told me not to worry about the expense and that he would take care of it. Nothing was ever in writing. He left me 6 months before I graduated when the loans were coming due. He knew I had NO money at the time and needed his support. That was our agreement. HE came up with the idea and I kept going back and forth about what if something happens. He assured me that he would take care of things regardless what happens. The economy plummeted, I could not find work and had NO place to live. He knew these things and could have cared less. Devoted girlfriend, fiance, best friend and it didn't stop him from walking away on commitments to me. That hurt.

Now, I see how sick he is and that I was naive for believeing him. I used to think that if you talk it out and people make promises, then it means something. Like a contract that you have to follow. It doesn't.

Still Waters

Yes, like MissFixit, my STBXAH lied and continues to lie. He also kept everything I own. Everything.

I was also going to go back to school, I was in school when we met and married. Instead I took care of him while he was desperately ill. Did he ever offer to pay a dime on my student loans that came up due since I was out of school so long taking care of him and his home? No , and I begged, nothing.

My STBXAH is very very sick, but he's also scum. The alcohol doesn't get all the blame here, nor does his obvious mental illness. He chose to be abusive.

firestorm090

Ahh, the recovering alcoholic, such an enigma.

Oh, wait a minute Dallas, you're a recovering alcoholic, let's not get carried away. Oops, sorry, I'll restrain myself abit. You're the source of all our destruction, all our ailments, hell, you're omnipotent. Oh really?

So the question becomes, why are we here on a website that discusses codependency, if all the problems lie with the drunken jerk we married? Oh, sorry, it's all him/her and we've done nothing wrong. I love that line, but then again, I am one of those drunken jerks that no one wants to hear from. I'm only here tonight by request.

Nobody wants to hear that love, that elusive desire we all have, to be loved to our core, is fleeting at best in the most wonderful of relationships. Nobody wants to hear that maybe, just maybe, I had something to do with the demise of our absolute, never ending love and it was all him, or her. Oh sure, that's so much easier to swallow, but is it true?

As we progress thorough life, we learn and one of the greatest things I've learned is that by being a down and out drunk, is that I can truly love one that has been there as well. It's a sick thing, maybe in some eyes, but the truth is I Know what that down and out drunk is thinking. I don't pretend to be a great guy, never been that down and out, and yet I can connect with that fellow much more so than most members of society. What does all this matter? It's hard to explain because we're still debating whether or not it's a disease or a matter of willpower. In my mind, it's not a debate, it is what it is, but maybe you still wonder?

I am a recovering alcoholic and today through the grace of God, and my program, I don't care what others think of my problem. It's OK. I know I have a problem and must do what helps me overcome my problem, be it meetings, howling at the moon, or asking for government assistance, which hasn't happened thus far.

I'm not out to break women's hearts, although I've broken a few over the years. Do I feel bad about it? Of course, I am still human and never engage in hurting others willingly. I have hurt countless others, but I am still human, as they are. What the hell does that mean? It means that many of them expected what I was unable to deliver and they nonetheless pursued that which they wanted of which I was unable to deliver.
Here's the real question, was it wrong for them to expect that I deliver that which I was unable to deliver? No. This happens everyday, whether booze is involved or not. The real problem comes from laying all our hopes, dreams, insecurities, inadequacies, and lack of direction in life in one individual, for no one man or woman can fill the void we have inside, whether he/she is a drunk or not. It's just easier to blame it all on the drunk than to face our role in all the dysfunction and accept responsibility for our part.

To me, a recovering drunk, the greatest thing I feel today is an absolute appreciation of your differing outlook on life. I used to be so intimidated by women that I would never express my truth, but today feel, as a man, that women are just as human and insecure as we men, that today I have nothing but empathy for women, for they travel the same paths of life as men, just with a different slant of how it is. It's all good. I have seen adversity, through booze and other means bring people closer together, and hopefully it will happen with you.

Summerpeach

Thanks for sharing Fire. Hearing the other side is healing. This is probably why ever codie should hit an AA meeting once and a while.

A few years back, I still blamed all the wrongs on my ex. It was al anon that taught me that I had a huge list of shortcomings as well.
I will never take the blame for my ex's cheating or his lies (he needs to own those), but I did contribute to the demise of the relationship with my ever present codie self righteous behavior.

Still Waters

I maintain that a healthy marriage/relationship cannot be had with a "drunken jerk" period.

Many of our commenter's here didn't marry drunken jerks, their spouses became that years into the marriage.

I suppose we all need to become mind readers, to know instantly when what is said is a lie, to know when "this is the last one, I promise" is the truth. We all need to be born with the knowledge we've all slowly learned here in the "codependency" room - that you cannot reason with a drunken jerk, you cannot have a normal conversation with a drunken jerk, and you cannot ever trust a drunken jerk to do what they said they would do. That "until death do us part" is a load of dookey and we shouldn't take it seriously ever, since it just makes us look like pathetic codies.

I wish I had been a mind reader.

MissFixit

With all due respect relationships with alcoholics are very different than those with non-A's. Yes, someone can lie and deceive or just be mentally ill and do the same damage that an active A might do, but there are common trends in relationships with A's that almost ALL of us here have experienced.

Relationships are negotiations. Compromises about what you want, what I want and what is "best" for us. When two parties come together, have an emotional connectionand then verbally agree to an arrangement (whatever that might be), then each party is RESPONSIBLE for what they agreed to do. This includes fidelity, loyalty, financial duties, whatever the case may be.

In active alcoholics the delivery of their part (in my experience) does not come through as it does with healthy, mature adults.

We as participants in those relationships are at fault for being in them at all. However, we at least I did not, know/understand what I was dealing with. I did not know that his word was basically no good. I did not know that he was lying behind my back. I did not know that he was cheating on me. When these things were revealed, I felt crazy, angery, confused, betrayed and hurt. He was out of his mind and rather than taking ownership for the destruction he caused, he covered what he had done with newer lies and turned things around on me. This behavior is typical to many, not all, active A's.

When we first discover the crazy-making stuff, we are so amazed to learn that we arenot crazy but in relationships with people who are not dealing with the same set of prinicples that we are. Yes, it isn't only A's who do this, but it is common with them. I have never had anyone else including my mom who had a brain injury behave with the level of deceit, manipulation and bizarre behavior that my exA did.

I am writing this for those co-dependants in A relationships to know that they are not alone and that they are not at fault for the deceitful behavior from their A's. Resentments build from that stuff.

Learn2Live

To be honest, I think that EVERY one puts too much want, need and expectation into marriage (and "romantic" relationships) to begin with, whether they are with an alcoholic or not. I certainly did. I'm different now though, because I see things differently now.

IMO, I came into this world alone and I'm going out alone. And I have never in all my years, in any of the relationships I have ever been in, experienced what I wanted with or from the other person. It's taken me a long time to learn to just LET people BE who they are, without any idea of gain, or expectation of feeling from them. I've learned to meet my OWN needs. I am grateful for every experience with every person I have ever had, including the horrible, life-threatening experiences I have had with serious alcoholics and addicts. It is much more peaceful and I am much more stable and serene this way.

coyote21

I had a smidgeon of that myself, didn't get it till a few years in recovery, I'm a little slow at changing sometimes.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

Daybreak

Sometimes I get the feeling there are those of us who are not quite as co-dependently correct as others are. I am neither politically correct nor co-dependently correct. I have found information, insight and advice here that is helpful. However, I am not receptive to lectures from alcoholics, active or recovering. Insight yes, lectures no.

coyote21

I think my only hope for recovery is to become aware SOONER and have the ability and strength to say "this isn't working for me any more" and walk away instead of hanging on to the bitter end hoping SOMEONE ELSE will change.

SW, I know you're mad, but I not gonna be able to get on board with your mad if you keep using the word "dookey", O.K.. I'm a boy and "dookey" always triggers laughter in me, sorry.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

Still Waters

I'm not mad coyote, I'm disgusted.

Very different emotions.

But as far as waiting for someone else to change, what about when that someone else is saying they're working on changing and you have 20 or 30 years of marriage together? I mean, it's not an easy thing to put all that by the wayside. I'm very grateful that I got out as early as I did, believe me.

Did I even spell dookey right? lol

firestorm090

I was in a really foul mood last night and it came out in my post and for that I apologize.

It was inappropriate for me to allow my emotions to affect my input on this subject. I had a bad evening and posted here just after an argument, and it was not right.

I am really confused when it comes to dealing with emotions, which is why I struggle with relationships even when I'm not drinking. My emotions are all over the map and seem to have a mind of their own at times.

I will refrain from posting during these difficult times, for my postings while upset do not really portray how I feel when calm and peaceful.

So it's true, I feel we're all codependent in relationships to some extent, and learning how to deal with emotional issues is at the heart of recovery, and I still have tons to learn.

Thank you for letting me be part of your group, and please disregard my comments made in while in a negative frame of mind.

Learn2Live

Thanks firestorm. But when I read your "foul" post from last night, I didn't pick up on that. It made a lot of sense to me, I actually liked reading your perspective. It's good to be self-aware though.