Fusion

Yes, i was waiting for your reply, before mentioning the locus of control issue.

I was reading into anti-alcohol drugs, the types that affect cravings by altering the brains’ chemical balance and Antabuse, I came across some studies on outcomes after drug cessation. I noted one conclusion “The Alcoholics electing to take disulfiram were significantly more externally oriented, as measured by Rotter's Internal-External Locus of Control Scale, than were alcoholics not electing to take disulfiram.. I found that interesting, personally, because I know I have a fiercely strong internal locus of control, and I personally wouldn’t pass my decision whether or not to drink, onto a third party, whether it be AA or ant anti-alcohol drug.

The studies deemed the drugs effective whilst taken, because the user built a new habit.

And I considered what you’ve written about, O, AA and Antabuse (external) and AVRT concept (internal) and wondered what would happen if the external drug control was removed. Whether the Antabuse was a positive factor in the short term, and I negative factor in the longer term. Whether it was a safety net, that by its very existence, might stop someone from fully putting an effective internal anti-alcohol Plan into place. Then I was ruminating on whether people who attend AA long term, would relapse just because they stopped attending meetings, consequent upon the removal of an external control.

Also, I was reflecting on my public resistance to making another RR/AVRT in Secular, and refusal to use the word Beast. I selected the terms ‘line drawn in concrete’ and ‘Parasite’ as substitutions, and whether the decision wasn’t simply that I’d broken my original Big Plan, but that I sought independence and resisted fully following the RR/AVRT doctrine.

harriet11

Wow Tatsy, are you a writer? Because that was like an article from a magazine, very interesting.

harriet11

Sorry, I've just gone back a page and realised bits part of a larger discussion. Ignore me

Fusion

Harriet, thank you, but no, I’m not a writer, but I’ve been practising alcohol addiction and surmounting it, for quite some time. I for one, would welcome your input. Harriet.

fini

"Whether the Antabuse was a positive factor in the short term, and I negative factor in the longer term. Whether it was a safety net, that by its very existence, might stop someone from fully putting an effective internal anti-alcohol Plan into place. Then I was ruminating on whether people who attend AA long term, would relapse just because they stopped attending meetings, consequent upon the removal of an external control."
Tatsy, i have pretty much seen all these scenarios play out. and others.

i see Antabuse as that initial safety net it can be, and then much the wrong thing to "rely" on after a while.

harriet11

Ah, that explains it, I thought it sounded a bit like an article from a sciencey magazine.
Thanks for the invite to join in but I think for now I'll just drop in and have a read. It'll give me something to think about.

In the meantime I'll be developing my own personal "recipe" for recovery and it's early days because although I've had periods of sobriety they've never lasted. So I've lots to think about .... And I don't want to get all confused lol .... I'll sort of have to keep focused on my own path for now.

Fusion

Yes Harriet, I read the Weekenders Thread which you’ve joined and agree with the “Recipe for Sobriety” introduction from Mags1. Dealing with addiction is indeed akin to concocting our own personal recipes. Coincidentally, when I cook something unusual from scratch, I have three or four books open on a particular recipe page, and utilise those to create an amalgamation, my own personal take on the dish.

Fusion

This is what interested me, Harriet, when you arrived on this thread. I admit, I was anticipating you posting here, because I’m so interested in psychology and its’ take on addiction. Particularly from an actual psychologist who herself suffers from addiction, and presumably has done the research, to reach a meaningful perspective, that I’d be interested to read.

entropy1964

Hi Ladies and gents

Thanks for all the well wishes and compassion as usual. I am feeling much better....its incremental but its headed in the right direction. But I can find some relief and some sleep so I'm far less apocalyptic. Oh the drama.

I definitely can't miss the move. I mean, if I have to be pushed around in a wheel chair I will be there. Period. But that's just silly and won't happen. I had to go upstairs to review the suit case situation (because I always over pack and cannot do that this time for obvious reasons) and I walked back down the stairs like I was walking through a mine field. Jesus.

O, I'm no pro. And I'm not in a head space to pick apart anyone's recovery. I'm just trying to keep my own shlit together. But you are 'doing' an awful lot. And I'm very impressed with that and your commitment. I've just been not drinking and have done little for my recovery for some time. I'm going to go to an IOP for mental health tho when I get back to my parents. And I can thank you (and that ****** counselor that I no longer see) for seeking more help for my underlying issues. I don't need God. I need help. Like the kind that I can hear, feel and see. So I'm looking forward to that. Until recently my area has only had one psych hospital and it is HORRENDOUS. Like One Who Flew Over the Coo coo's nest horrible. And this new place seems great. So I'm excited. And my insurance covers it. Yay.

When they say this is an inside job, that is ultimately 100% true IMHO. At its foundation that internal commitment must be there, black and white. The rest is that 'tool box' that we use to support that commitment. I applaud you for taking the antibuse and when you're ready, you'll come off. You'll be ok. It can be hard on the liver, and I've heard conflicting information about whether or not one needs to actually drink to cause the problems. So I don't really know. But I'm assuming you guys will check the blood work every few months so, whatever. There's also the naltrexone shot, which I have heard can be amazing. I've also heard its a big fat nothing so very individual. Antibuse doesn't work for me because I'm a planner. I plan a relapse. I don't just oops what how'd that happen? Why am I drinking? I just found myself drinking. That never happens. Its a plan. So I'll just go off it and drink. And for some reason it increases my obsession. So not effective for me. But each of us ultimately own the decision about what works.

I love kombucha and where I live we have 'growler' stations where you can fill up with yummy fresh kombucha and micro brews if so inclined. I filled up my growler yesterday at our fancy new market that is huge and quite awesome yesterday. It was a gorgeous fall day. 60 degrees. Clear as a bell, fall colors everywhere. And in this one they have a full bar. Yep like a full, huge fancy bar. I had to fill up there, which was fine, but I have to say, all these people, drinking their bloodies and their martini's, day drinking on a gorgeous day. I was truly bitter. I felt like announcing to the whole bar 'this is Kombucha, ok, it isn't beer. Ok?" Haha. I mean it was packed and everyone was so damn happy. This is a store where you can get a drink and take it with you shopping. Hilarious. I sooooo would have done that 15 years ago. But I can't. That wouldn't be me, all glowing and smiling. I'd be arrested and committed. So yeah. But it was the first time, in some time, that I have looked at drinkers and thought "well what-ever." haha. But I'm over it. And the kombucha is delicious. Strawberry basil. And I'm happy.

And just so happy not to be in excruciating pain. I still wince when I hear yet another report on the opiode crisis and want to momentarily throw a hammer at my tv, but then I'm fine.

So onward and upward. Can't wait till I can exercise....or just simply walk more than very slowly for 15 minutes. Blah Blah.

Another fall day, all windy so leaves dropping fast. Oh man, who the heck is gonna rake all those. I seriously think I'm just gonna leave the back and do it in the spring. I mean, why not?

Have a great Saturday my friends.

Hawkeye13

Hey O;

thank you kindly for the shout out

I'm well and working on many IRL projects and just being off the computer more of late.

I am loving autumn and hammock time, plus really starting the massive house / farm purge and fix up projects that I need to complete before retiring next year.

I've been reading and following what's up with all of us--but just not feeling too verbal of late.
More in a reflective state of being.

So grateful to be just living life and not focused on addiction, but life post addiction. . .

In fact, I don't think about drinking or alcohol much these days. Just staying grateful and continuing my recovery plan of mediation, stress reduction, yoga, hiking, puppy time, and keto / carnivore eating to get lean and fit so I can really hit the trails when I finish up work next year.

Man, I'm looking forward to that so so so much . . .

Obladi

Practice makes perfect.
If at first you don't succeed, try try again.
Fake it 'til you make it.

The positive vs negative equation implies that internal control is more enduring and reliable, that it's superior to external control. It's exactly the perspective one could reasonably expect from a person whose locus of control is predominantly internal.

I yam who I yam.
You do you.
To thine own self be true.

Obladi

Hi Harriet!

Far be it from me to muddy anyone else's water, but you are most welcome to make yourself a place here.

We're always up for a good rumination 'round these parts.

Obladi

So good to see you, Flips and Hawk. Omit the "blah blah" Flips. Looking forward to things getting better isn't implied griping. And even if you are feeling salty about your current circumstances, I think you have every right to do so.

I took that Locus of Control (LOC) assessment, and I'm a 9. This is a bit surprising to me, but not. I would love to be a 1. (More accurately, I would love for the world to allow me to be a 1.) I think the LOC concept is more about my perception of reality than it is about the essential "me." I personally in my own container am 100% responsible for myself, that's true. But my container is bobbing around in a sea of external factors, circumstances and influences. (The world forces me to be a 9.)

So I'm setting my confidence level in my Recipe for Not Drinking to an arbitrary 100%. I don't think about the antabuse much, I just take it. When I do think about it, it's to report in to my sponsor that I took it or it's to feel some degree of satisfaction in myself that I am continuing to take it. That's a sort of funny internal/external dynamic, now that I think of it. "Thanks, O, for taking that medication - it gives me another two weeks' peace of mind." "Well, you know, I've been known to drink on that stuff and hang the consequences. So thanks for the kudos, but you're the one who's not drinking."

Tats, your hypothetical withdrawal of antabuse or AA prompts me to think that perhaps the locus of one's LOC might be significant here. Are those external controls, really? Doesn't it depend on your perspective in both instances? If I go to AA because I'm trying to mitigate the consequences of a DUI, that's quite different from going because I think the program might have something to offer me. And both of these motivations differ significantly from the perspective that AA will save my life. (Insert similar considerations regarding consumption of antabuse.) LOC is not equivalent to personal integrity; it's a worldview.

harriet11

Ahhhh, I was trying to forget those posts.
Actually I studied my degree as a mature student in my 30's which is a very long time ago. I didn't study anything to do with addiction. In our third year we had to narrow our studies down to three subjects. I took cognitive psychology, psychology of vision and neuropsychology. My dissertation was on the perception of time. The reason I had a BSc instead of the usual BA is because I also took Computer Science (I used to be good at maths)
Of course I'm not a computer scientist either, not by any stretch of the imagination though I do have the satisfaction of knowing that I taught my children the basics of computer programming which has been useful to them both. Infact one of them is a senior lecturer in computer science.

So my interests have been wide ranging and not specialist. Addiction is a very specialist subject. I suppose I don't really feel like embarking on a course of study. I'd rather study my own little life and what addiction means to me personally, because it's not always the same as with others. That for me is a big enough project. I don't want to have to think about things too much if I can help it, things get too complicated and that's not good for me.

My only study of addiction is in regards to me and my personal experience of it. At AA I was always at odds and feeling guilty that perhaps my experiences of addiction and sobriety weren't as they were supposed to be. I like it here as we can do our own thing.
Good innit?

Still interested though and will be interested to look in on this thread, though it kind of gets a bit deep for me these days, I just want to paint and crochet and skip about in the sunshine lol

I

Fusion

Thanks for replying, Harriet. Well, I think the background of your psychology studies, plus your personal experience, would be interesting to read. I’m sorry to raise ‘that’ thread, I guess as Dee said, it brought out the momma bears in some, including me, but I agreed with your views. I still shudder to think of the adverse impact upon my teenage son, had the School Principal not taken a non zero-tolerance stance against the perpetrators. There are far too many reports of suicides, apparently arsing from school bullying, in the U.K.

I do hope you’re skipping in the sunshine today, Harriet. It’s a glorious autumnal day in the U.K. where I am. I’ve just returned from excercising my dogs, one of which is a Mud Magnet. After the torrential rain a couple of days ago......cleaning is a horrible chore. But as Fini on this thread would say....not you have to do it’ but “you get to do it’. So yay me, I get to clean muddy dogs, I’m fortunate! 🐾 🐾 🐾

Fusion

Entropy, I’m glad your pain has lessened from excruciating to wincing. Growler stations, oh my, my mind is boggling. Just why? Oh yes, probably to make the customers spend more, when tanked up.

I once left lots of leaves on the ground, after I did a half-hearted inebriated autumnal collection. And by the spring, they were gone, the worms dragged them into the soil. It was amazing to watch, the stalks were the last part to be dragged down, all these little stalks, like the ground had porcupined itself.

Fusion

O, I inferred no superiority. 😔

Hawkeye13

Speaking as a "layperson" with little knowledge of psychology outside of a mild Jung addiction and how psychology relates to linguistics, I think the path (aka O's "recipe") is indeed individual.

I haven't been driven by or used external resources much at all in recovery except for the fear of losing my job in my first "big quit" and rejecting the Paxil my doctor tried to put me on instead of alcohol--the first pill made me ill and anxious, and I knew it wasn't for me long or short-term as this was the second time I tried it in my life.

I think whatever is needed to get that first year or two of sobriety should be seized upon--no cherry picking for us. We are all dangerous hard-core drinkers who are literally risking our physical and emotional lives with relapse.
That's the bare-naked truth. So SR for me was the first real "outside" input I have used in an intensive and meaningful way. I'm grateful for it, but lately have been stepping back from posting and reading so much as I feel "better" and more in charge of myself on my own. Doesn't mean I don't love you guys--I do--and you are my main social connection as I am a solitary person who eschews small talk and there is a big lack of social activities that appeal to me where I live.

Whatever it takes to stop that first drink the first year is what to do in my view.
For me, I suppose my Locus is more internal. Beyond the job threat and failed medication attempt, I got my first year through lifestyle change and focus on replacing negative coping with positive modalities.

I kept a journal, spent time in Nature and with animals, joined Crossfit, began a yoga practice, and so on. I began to eat Primal diet, attended to sleep, avoided negative draining news media exposure, and so on.

I didn't take Anabuse, go to AA or other support, and I didn't find SR until a few years later. I did relapse after nearly two years pursuing the myth of moderation. That's been my weakness all along. Perhaps the external controls could have stopped that, but I don't think so. I think in hindsight I would have taken Anabuse and done meetings to stay sober seeing what it cost me to fail repeatedly. But hindsight is always 20-20 and perhaps I just wasn't ready to put down the bottle yet.

The whole thing for me is an internal decision. A knowing of what is true for me and my inability to have any kind of relationship with alcohol. I had to put my fingers on the hot stove of addiction many times until I got that--I'm stubborn and think rules don't apply to me, so I kept testing to see if things had changed.

Now I know (at a visceral and fundamental level), accept, and am even becoming peaceful (dare I say joyful?) with the idea
I cannot ever drink safely. Not ever.


And that has brought considerable peace and a feeling of acute addiction receding into a past that is not now, and no longer impacts my present moment.

That I am still mindful and vigilant of AV voice goes without saying. I know how it creeps back in during moments of weakness, or in times of habit-drinking from the past. But lately it has not been so much on or in my mind.
I have so many other things to focus on that add much more value to my life.

Anyway, that's kinda what's up. As always, a work in progress.
We all keepa' go, no?

harriet11

Yes it's sunny here too and I'll be skipping out later to see my granddaughter. I like that, you GET to clean, yes it's all about attitude.
I'm glad the Principal at your child's school took a zero tolerance stance and I totally agree with that approach. Yes I think you hear about more teenage suicides than ever these days and to say that oh, bullying happens, you're bound to get bullies.Huh. There are also bound to be a very percentage of serial killers so do we ignore them? Poor things they've usually had an abusive background (they're usually psychopaths aswell but hey) is it fair to lock the poor things away ? No, just ignore them and if they murder you just say oh, go away you silly person.

Anyway, my very showy offy post was originally meant to explain that having a degree in psychology doesn't necessarily mean you know about this or that. I remember going to the docs and telling him I was depressed. I mentioned I was studying psychology and so he said oh well you'll know if you are or not then so I just said yes. I never did study anything about depression ever, other than what I've looked up, and my own experiences. Mind you I bet most doctors know eff all about it aswell.
Anyway, thanks for posting and making me feel that my views are valid . It's been a LONG time lol

I'm off to get ready for babysitting now. (I've cut it down drastically and am feeling so much better already. Hope I feel like that after I've seen my daughter in law ! )

Obladi

Oh but I think you did. Not about yourself, but about the strength of one LOC vs another. You postulated that one with an external LOC might lose something essential by losing access to external tools without mentioning that one could just as easily lose access to one's own internal tools.