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Oh Well Part 2

Old 10-01-2019, 08:47 AM
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i get it, O.
been there.
hm...just remembering what a long-sober-in-aa woman said to me before i ever went, when i was considering going:" in AA, you have to kick some room for yourself".
she said this while telling me there was room for everyone.
and i think she was exactly right on both counts
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Old 10-01-2019, 07:42 PM
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You guys are terrific, thanks. Love "kick your way in," fini.

So either I'm getting volatile or I'm coming back to life. Or both. I was really irritated at work today by all kinds of foolishness. We are paying this outside company for a service and they absolutely stink at it. I've been kvetching about it for months to no avail, and I promise you it's completely justified. Was in a meeting where we collectively provide oversight for the work of our peers, and one of the people had absolutely no understanding of what she was presenting. Because her boss sends people to meetings completely unprepared. I read a report from a nurse who wrote candidly about browbeating a technician while he was trying to conduct tests that were critical for her patient. I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

IOP tonight. There was a guy there totally reminded me of my ex-husband. He went on and on about how to look at life, how to remain positive, how to maintain perspective. Basically, he was saying nothing of substance and using a lot of words to do so. I wanted to say, "What are you talking about? How does any of this apply specifically to what you've experienced and done? " But I held my tongue. Again. I was just feeling too confrontational in my head, and I knew a major part of that was just how very much he sounded like the ex. Like nails on a chalkboard, I tell ya.

Tomorrow's drive - no radio, practice speaking up. What would the perfect words have been to express my feelings? I don't know. Let me sleep on it.
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Old 10-02-2019, 06:11 AM
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It is so important that I find some balance. It's sort of exhilarating to be actually feeling something, but I need to/want to temper that. I might find myself on frequent walks outside for a bit here. I need to find my right voice and use it well.
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Old 10-02-2019, 06:35 AM
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fini, I also love the idea of "kicking yourself some room" not just in AA but life in general--thank you for the thought.

O, funny you should mention feelings. I have been anhedonic so long I had come to terms with it mostly, but yesterday watching the sunrise I was moved first to tears by its beauty, and how everything--weeds, dying leaves, fading flowers were just so perfect in their progress.

Then I thought about other things that have faded or been lost in my life and cried tears of sadness which became peace as I just let them flow and felt the hurt fully until they naturally passed instead of me trying to stop or mitigate them.

And then I thought "maybe there are feelings in me, and I'm not drained and empty forever". This was comforting after feeling flat for so very long.

I don't know, but maybe I am finally hearing my internal "right voice".

Whatcha all think?
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Old 10-02-2019, 06:46 AM
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I know how to quit booze, put it down and walk away and there on in not fight any want just ignore it , yeah ? Easy-peasy

Everything else? Who really knows , right ? With that disclaimer..

Being right is an extremely good thing, but even that can get 'lost' or just not factor into all situations. I always want to be right, I like knowing I'm the 'rightest', lately though I've come to notice very few others care about my rightness , usually they only care if I miss the mark .

We live and work in 'systems' that pay a lot of lipservice to 'rightness' but would just rather roll along regardless.

My gut tells me ,without specifics needed, that I'm right to assume O knows where of she speaks. How important in this 'system' is it for you to be right ? Keeping in mind that competence and performance may not line up with being right.
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Old 10-02-2019, 08:47 AM
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"but yesterday watching the sunrise I was moved first to tears by its beauty, and how everything--weeds, dying leaves, fading flowers were just so perfect in their progress.

Then I thought about other things that have faded or been lost in my life and cried tears of sadness which became peace as I just let them flow and felt the hurt fully until they naturally passed instead of me trying to stop or mitigate them."

me thinketh this reminds me of reading Mary Oliver.

Hawk, it sounds "right" to me. and full
death and change and beauty.
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Old 10-03-2019, 06:12 AM
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Hawk, I think you draw beautiful emotive pictures with words. I think crying can be restorative. I think it's so good that feeling is returning to you and that you are smart enough to know that includes the whole package not just the good stuff.

Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
I know how to quit booze, put it down and walk away and there on in not fight any want just ignore it , yeah ? Easy-peasy

Everything else? Who really knows , right ? With that disclaimer..

Being right is an extremely good thing, but even that can get 'lost' or just not factor into all situations. I always want to be right, I like knowing I'm the 'rightest', lately though I've come to notice very few others care about my rightness , usually they only care if I miss the mark .

We live and work in 'systems' that pay a lot of lipservice to 'rightness' but would just rather roll along regardless.

My gut tells me ,without specifics needed, that I'm right to assume O knows where of she speaks. How important in this 'system' is it for you to be right ? Keeping in mind that competence and performance may not line up with being right.
Being right is different in my mind than thinking right. I too love to be right, as in "correct, accurate, discerning of the truth of a situation." You're right, broster, systems are distressingly human. Reflective of complacency, fallibility and self-centeredness (among other things). I smiled when I read your post yesterday, as I'd just had a conversation with my boss about my place in our little world. It's become clear to me that the quasi-manager part I play in the organization, while appreciated by many individuals, is not valued by the system. She's been gently urging me for some months now to do more analyst work, something I haven't done much of for many years. I know that where I provide the most value is not in doing this work (though I'm sure I can do it) but in broader organizational skills. But I work for her team and while those leadership attributes are admirable skills, the "system" work I've been doing doesn't add anything specifically to the work for which her team is responsible. I'm not quite sure how to describe her reaction to all of this. Reading between the lines, I think it was "I'm sorry because I know this isn't in the best interest of your career progression but yes, you're spot on." And so I asked her if we could meet with our director to make sure he's on board with me letting go of these extracurricular activities he got me involved in. I think we'll be doing that today.

IOP was good. I spoke during check-in about struggling with how to "call BS" on other people in group. When the counselor responded, "maybe that's something we can practice in second hour," I said, "I don't have issues with any of the people here tonight," and the group laughed. That was affirming - I felt understood. During the second hour, one of the guys talked about an interchange he'd had with his therapist. Therapist said, "Given all of the horror you've gone through this year, do you think you'll ever use again?" Guy was chagrined that he didn't respond "no" without pause. The reaction of the group was pretty strong - Guy wasn't coming short of any mark he should be reaching; fact is that he's an addict. He was visibly relieved by our reactions. That was a very good moment.

I got to experience acupuncture/meditation during the third hour. 40 minutes is much longer than I've ever gone before, so it was a challenge but I made it through at least 30. Acupuncturist asked me afterward how it was and I said "sweaty." She said that the theory is that this is the body releasing anxiety or stress. Or maybe it's just that it was hot outside today.

Alright I'm off to start my work day. Thanks for listening and for being on my side.
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Old 10-03-2019, 10:02 PM
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You sound good O. Yeah the whole feeling things again is strange huh? The emotional thawing out which in my experience continues deepening over time.. reminds me of some music video I saw at some point where a girl frozen in ice starts melting as the sun comes up.

I've been busy which is good but mostly still just having a hard time with work. It's basically a never ending roller coaster ride and I'm not having fun. I've been actively trying and failing for almost a full year now and my ego tells me what's the point, you're probably already a joke in everyone else's eyes.. Truthfully sometimes I want to give up on it, but I'm not going to. Easy to find parallels with sobriety and how hard/impossible it seemed at first.. but if it's something worth "fighting for" I'm not going to quit. Which again is much easier to do after knowing my only real enemy is my own inner critic/AV/ego, whatever you want to call it. And that I can carry on undeterred by not engaging with those thoughts.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:38 AM
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took me 15 years Cosima

D
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Old 10-04-2019, 04:37 PM
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Hi O and everyone. Haven't posted for a while but I read periodically, especially this thread, still.

This time, the discussion about rightness drew me in... I am also someone who likes to be right, to represent the truth - only that, I never really believe there is a single truth, for most things. At the same time, I tend to be the most avid fan of reading any and every "theory of everything", where someone attempts to come up with a relatively simple and elegant solution to a problem, or a multitude of problems... this is also why I love some aspects of math and physics. But it is rarely the case in biology (my science) and just everyday human life.

Also, I am always intrigued by the abundant reports describing that more people than not report drowning feelings in alcohol, using alcohol in that way, to numb out. For me, it was the opposite! Each time I drank excessively, I would experience a myriad of emotions that I otherwise don't. In part, I think it became addictive, because I actually enjoyed the extreme emotional highs and lows and everything in between while intoxicated... alcohol definitely did not numb me, more opened up access to emotions and distorted their value and my evaluation of that value. I liked that while it was only that and no physical and other consequences but, as we all know, the "no consequences" soon took over.

I've never enjoyed being super emotional sober though (before and after alcoholism), never experienced some of those things others report "finally I can feel". Some might say I am chronically out of touch from my emotions... and I've definitely been described that way lots, throughout my life. I actually don't think I am out of touch of my feelings at all. It's more that my orientation to experiencing them is more investigative rather than reactive. Just like all these messages on a forum like this - we really most often talk about emotional matters... but rarely act them out in our shared environment, on each-other. But share, analyze and discuss these things to no end. This is what I mean by investigative vs. reactive.

I also wanted to comment on something I read on this thread a while ago, and cannot recall accurately how it was framed... something about life being unmanageable and several members here saying they feel that way even sober, often due to past whatever experiences. Well... O, based on whatever you write on these threads, it seems like you are managing life extremely well when you are not drinking. Those last few words are the key.
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Old 10-05-2019, 10:02 AM
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hmmmm, I'm double-checking on the feelings thing now. While drinking insulated me from feelings, sufficient quantities in sufficient duration perversely resulted in despair. Over the past I-don't-know-how-long, I've come to recognize with some degree of detachment but acceptance (if that makes sense) that I honestly didn't know how to navigate this world as my authentic self; and that's what I was avoiding. I mean, I've said that before but I didn't accept it in a non-judgmental way. I was always told and felt that was pitiful or a cop-out or attention-seeking. Perhaps it was all of those things at times, but that doesn't detract from the reality. I just needed to identify the right people to trust to help me to figure it all out. Better late than never, right?

Cos, as our dear birthday girl would say, "keepa go." You're definitely no joke and I'm glad that you are committed to moving along undeterred. Do that until/unless it feels like it's not really you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Aellyce. I'm feeling pretty ok about things today. I've made some really good moves this week and I'm proud of myself. Getting to "manageable" is a nice place to be.
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Old 10-06-2019, 06:26 PM
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The meeting I attend most Sunday nights has homemade bakery. I deliberately ate light today so I wouldn't upset my tummy with my habitual two treats.

Didn't work. That's the worst thing that happened today.
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Old 10-06-2019, 07:19 PM
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you had a good day
congratulations on two months, O.
i went for coffee and had decided to buy myself a piece of cake, as it is my 13th sobriety anniversary today, and buying a piece of cake at a cafe is something i have never ever done (i get a cookie sometimes, or a muffin, but never cake).
my favourite spot usually has the most decadent-looking fantabulous creations from a local bakery, so i was anticipating having difficulty with the choice.
no problem: no choice. first time ever, they had no cake!
haha...some cosmic joke going on here!!
let’s both keep going!
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:24 AM
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Happy birthday and anniversary to both of you!

I had a piece of my mother-in-law’s amazing banana coconut bread yesterday, with Irish butter no less.

So very delicious and I ate it slowly with fresh coffee on the side.
Treats can be such wonderful immersions in the moment. . .
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Old 10-07-2019, 05:19 AM
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Thanks, Hawk. That all sounds lovely with the exception of the coconut. One day soon, perhaps before the next threatened tariffs hit, I'll splurge on Irish butter.

Never you mind, fini. You can have cake on the spur of the moment now, and it will be all the more satisfying for the spontaneity. I do hope that you indulged in an alternate treat. Many many happy returns on your anniversary. You and your sobriety are a gift to all of us every day.

I'm pleased that you remembered my date as well. It came and went with little fanfare; just another day, but one with the quiet satisfaction that I'd successfully overcome this first arbitrary but meaningful milestone. On the deep-down, I actually feel the stirring of the beginning of the promise of the possibility of enormous hope. (Suppress much, O?) So I'll pick up my 2-month chip tonight and resolutely set course for the third.

Did my 5th, 6th and 7th step yesterday. The topic of last night's meeting was therefore naturally the 5th step. Because, as we know, it's all about me. The guy who spoke spent at least 30 minutes talking about "what it used to be like" and maybe two on the step itself. That was alright; I figured he was maybe trying to impart an important message to the gaggle of mysterious (to me) young visitors that were present. I came away with what I needed to hear - for him, doing the 5th step was not momentous in the moment. Me neither, and I'm fine with that. I think it was what I learned from 4 that was really the most important. Victimhood/martyrdom has been central to my identity. Not without reason, mind you. Or should I say without explanation? In any event, I've let go of the guilt, blame and self-recrimination that only served to reinforce that state. The slate has been cleaned.

Physically: Headache. I've concluded this is a physical manifestation of persistent stress and I'm confident this will resolve with time.
Mentally: Distracted by things not done, mainly bills and scheduling my gym training sessions this week. I'll get to both tomorrow if not this evening.
Emotionally: Stable. (!)
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:25 AM
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WOW O, congratulations on two months!

I’m so pleased to read you’ve cleaned your slate. Letting go, is true empowerment. I’ve found. 🤗
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:28 AM
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Belated Happy Birthday wishes, Fini. Darn, no cake, here’s a virtual, calorie free slice 🍰 or maybe a whole one to share 🎂. Yum! Do you have any new year plans?
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:57 AM
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thanks for the kind words, guys, and yeah, i stopped at a bakery on the way home and bought 6, yes, six, little italian cookies. no calorie-free things for me. i like the sugar-flour-fat combo

O, i did not remember your arbitrary though meaningful milestone, i have to admit,: you mentioned it in another thread, and THAT is what i remembered.

wow. you did step five and six and seven.
" I actually feel the stirring of the beginning of the promise of the possibility of enormous hope. (Suppress much, O?) " . i can really relate to this......i had learned, for so long, that "hope" was not to be trusted with regards to trhis. though i always would get it back, it was shown to be misplaced too many times. turned out hope was never enough, anyway
you're doing plenty more than "hope", and i realize that is not quite what you mean by "hope".
i'm mighty glad you are feeling those stirrings and "doing the work".

yeah, people sharing often get bogged down in "what it was like", that part of their story. the actual suggestion/instruction is about "what we were like", not "it", which is quite a different emphasis and much more personal i think.

on we go
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:16 AM
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Flipsie, where art thou? You were heading to Cali this month, as I recall. I hope you're doing alright wherever you are and do hope you'll give us an update very soon regardless. This is a really hard stretch for you and we all want to be here on your side.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:59 AM
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Yeah, fini, not only was hope not to be trusted, but trust was not to be trusted! I'm making minute advances in both areas, but perhaps so tiny that it wouldn't be discernible to the naked eye. Progress not perfection and all that.

I had off from IOP last night, so was able to go to my home group. As I was approaching the entrance, I noticed a woman from IOP outside smoking! She doesn't live in the area, but a friend of hers had gotten out of detox that afternoon, so she came along with him to this meeting. Small world.

In group, this young woman is very reserved, but she really poured it out as we stood on the porch in the cold. She talked about how her other attempts at sobriety were not genuine, how she's really trying this time and it's so hard. She pointed out that we're the only women in IOP right now and it's kind of a bummer because she would really like to make some good connections. So I told her I could be her woman. The topic of the meeting was Trying the Steps. I'm glad on many levels that I went.

I told Daniel yesterday that I'd set another boundary with eldest. She'd told me over the weekend that she hadn't eaten for a week. Naturally, I spoke motherly words to her and she eventually did make a meal with a friend. The next day she texted that her heartbeat was irregular - very low when at rest, then jumping to 136 when she stood up. Did I think it was symptomatic of POTS? I responded, "No way of knowing without seeing a doctor. Go to urgent care to get checked out." Just a few minutes later I called her. No answer. I tried again a couple of times, then forced myself to let go. Pictures of a dead young woman tried to make their way into my consciousness and I forced them away as highly unlikely. When she called 5 o 6 hours later, I told her it was very inconsiderate to text me and then not answer the phone - and not to do it again. An hour or so after that brief conversation, she texted again to say, "You're right. I need to take care of myself and I'm going to do that. But it's no fun." I know

So Daniel asked me how I felt about all of that. I told him I'd accepted that I'm completely powerless in this situation. When he asked me how I felt about that, I said "good!" He was very surprised. After thinking about it for a moment said, "I was trying to think of how it would feel to be the mom in that situation, and I guess I was expecting you to say how difficult it was." But you know, I've been worrying about this girl with increasing intensity since she was 13. It hasn't helped anything and the manifestation was definitely counterproductive at times. Maybe that's not how a mom is "supposed" to feel. It's certainly not the cultural expectation. I'm pretty sure I'm ok with that.

Physically: This is gross, so avert your eyes if you're squeamish. I have scabs on my upper back from when I was constantly itchy. I keep pulling them off and it's getting sore. That's the worst of my physical trouble at the moment and it's not visible but it's a constant reminder of something being not right. Which we know it isn't. Perhaps I can reframe the scars symbolically and put some effort into healing them.
Mentally: In a good place. Ok with letting go of those extra work duties and eager to do so. Satisfied that bills are paid and my schedule is set for the week.
Emotionally: Content with where I am right this moment.
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