Big Life Changes Support Group Part 3
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Yes, thank you, Gilmer. She sent me some amazing PMs that I will be reading through again in the morning with a fresh mind. It is all great stuff.
You've all been very supportive. I want to thank you all for just being there and listening.
This is not easy. There are no obvious, easy answers. It will take time and trying different ways. I need to stay open to making some changes.
You've all been very supportive. I want to thank you all for just being there and listening.
This is not easy. There are no obvious, easy answers. It will take time and trying different ways. I need to stay open to making some changes.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Thanks, Suze and Wolfie.
It's probably the desire to 'collect' and hold onto things out of fear he will need them one day. The reluctance to let go of things maybe. (Ex: He won't throw anything in the fridge away, even when empty. He will leave tiny amounts in the bottoms of bottles so he doesn't have to throw them away. I have to toss them. I have asked him many, many times WHY? Why does he do it? Vague answers.)
I don't think it qualifies as true hoarding, thank god.
But still... it is absolutely maddening, yes. I clean out an area, and the next day there are more items appearing in the spot I cleaned out. Ugh. It's hard to want to keep going because what I do is futile.
It's like he can't stand to see a clean surface of anything in the house. Something MUST go there. He claims we need a larger house. I don't think so.
It's probably the desire to 'collect' and hold onto things out of fear he will need them one day. The reluctance to let go of things maybe. (Ex: He won't throw anything in the fridge away, even when empty. He will leave tiny amounts in the bottoms of bottles so he doesn't have to throw them away. I have to toss them. I have asked him many, many times WHY? Why does he do it? Vague answers.)
I don't think it qualifies as true hoarding, thank god.
But still... it is absolutely maddening, yes. I clean out an area, and the next day there are more items appearing in the spot I cleaned out. Ugh. It's hard to want to keep going because what I do is futile.
It's like he can't stand to see a clean surface of anything in the house. Something MUST go there. He claims we need a larger house. I don't think so.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
To be fair to him, I need to list his two big complaints against me.
I spent way too much money and put us into debt. No, it's not all mine. He has used the credit cards as well. The majority of it is mine. I take that responsibility and am paying it off with my income. My reasons for spending don't really matter. They are good ones, or at least they make sense to me, but ultimately it was not a good choice. It was a bad choice, financially.
The other complaint is that I spend too much time reading and writing. He would rather I spend that time cleaning, cooking, and shopping. Yes, he actually said this to me. Lol. He thinks that I am being 'lazy' when I am at my desk working or studying (and I also think he enjoys calling me lazy when he lacks initiative and decisiveness in general). (I have tried to explain to him how difficult it is to clean a house that is full of HIS clutter. He doesn't get that at all. I am the one who does most of the cleaning still. We share the cooking. And he does most of the grocery shopping. The reason he does the grocery shopping is because he is determined to find the absolute lowest price for X item. I don't do this well, so he took that away from me. And I am a self-admitted impatient store shopper. I prefer online shopping. So, to 'get me back' for this, when he shops for our food, he calls and texts me to interrupt what I'm doing and forces me to make the choices via the phone. I have to decide how much of X item and all that nonsense. He will call and text until I answer the phone.)
It is sadly ironic that I essentially drank away 10-13 years of potential literary productivity, and now that I've gotten sober and have committed to my writing, I have this person in my life who fights me on it.
I know you all don't want to hear this nonsense and this amount of detail. But I am really struggling right now with our life. I just need to get it out there.
I spent way too much money and put us into debt. No, it's not all mine. He has used the credit cards as well. The majority of it is mine. I take that responsibility and am paying it off with my income. My reasons for spending don't really matter. They are good ones, or at least they make sense to me, but ultimately it was not a good choice. It was a bad choice, financially.
The other complaint is that I spend too much time reading and writing. He would rather I spend that time cleaning, cooking, and shopping. Yes, he actually said this to me. Lol. He thinks that I am being 'lazy' when I am at my desk working or studying (and I also think he enjoys calling me lazy when he lacks initiative and decisiveness in general). (I have tried to explain to him how difficult it is to clean a house that is full of HIS clutter. He doesn't get that at all. I am the one who does most of the cleaning still. We share the cooking. And he does most of the grocery shopping. The reason he does the grocery shopping is because he is determined to find the absolute lowest price for X item. I don't do this well, so he took that away from me. And I am a self-admitted impatient store shopper. I prefer online shopping. So, to 'get me back' for this, when he shops for our food, he calls and texts me to interrupt what I'm doing and forces me to make the choices via the phone. I have to decide how much of X item and all that nonsense. He will call and text until I answer the phone.)
It is sadly ironic that I essentially drank away 10-13 years of potential literary productivity, and now that I've gotten sober and have committed to my writing, I have this person in my life who fights me on it.
I know you all don't want to hear this nonsense and this amount of detail. But I am really struggling right now with our life. I just need to get it out there.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Accountability is an important element of my sober lifestyle, so I just really believe that by getting it all out there for feedback is the way to go. It appears there are blockades in my marriage, and so I could throw my hands up, wither away in bitterness and resentment and destroy us, or I can be brave and get all the nastiness out in the open and claim responsibility for my stuff.
I feel I am at a critical point in my life. I must consider that when it seems unworkable, when it seems I've done all I can do, and nothing seems to give ... there are options I am just not seeing. I must be open to all possible options here, or I will remain in a mediocre state of living.
I feel I am at a critical point in my life. I must consider that when it seems unworkable, when it seems I've done all I can do, and nothing seems to give ... there are options I am just not seeing. I must be open to all possible options here, or I will remain in a mediocre state of living.
Do your best
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 67,047
I wouldn't have that J mrs sw would never have that & you shouldn't be having to put up with his uncleanliness unhygienic ways it makes me think of when my brother comes & stays sometimes he just doesn't think it needs to be done I'm not a clean freak but if I make a mess I clean it up
Has he had any help with the ocd because that's exactly what hoarding is I think one of my uncle's is like that in Scotland
Really sorry hun xxx
Has he had any help with the ocd because that's exactly what hoarding is I think one of my uncle's is like that in Scotland
Really sorry hun xxx
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
One more element of crazy I deal with ... he insists on covering up computer and ipad camera holes. He covers up windows and obsesses over locks. And he won't eat certain foods because of pesticides and all manner of inherent things in the foods that will 'get him.' Lots of conspiracy theories going on in his mind, too, re the government. No, he is not insane or schizophrenic (yet), but maybe it's a little OCD. I just have to deal with it. There is a stupid piece of cloth hanging over the computer camera. Ticks me off but if I remove it, it comes right back.
I don't think I picked up on any of this right away, or thought too much about it if I did, because generally I am not too concerned about governmental authority (I support the whistle blowers, non-censorship, and am skeptical of homeland 'security', but personally, if the gov is watching me they need better things to do). And I've long since felt rather hopeless about the GMOs and pesticides in our foods. It is a huge problem. One that seems insurmountable unless you pay 4X as much for locally grown organics. And yes, we've tried this and no we can't sustain it.
So there were red flags and warning signs but I am so open-minded and generally can see many angles that I discounted these as real problems that would come back to haunt me in a marriage where I can't get away from this individual.
I don't think I picked up on any of this right away, or thought too much about it if I did, because generally I am not too concerned about governmental authority (I support the whistle blowers, non-censorship, and am skeptical of homeland 'security', but personally, if the gov is watching me they need better things to do). And I've long since felt rather hopeless about the GMOs and pesticides in our foods. It is a huge problem. One that seems insurmountable unless you pay 4X as much for locally grown organics. And yes, we've tried this and no we can't sustain it.
So there were red flags and warning signs but I am so open-minded and generally can see many angles that I discounted these as real problems that would come back to haunt me in a marriage where I can't get away from this individual.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
On the other hand, he goes out of his way to help animals ... he rescued the turtle crossing the road on our vacation to Florida. It physically pains him to not do things like this. He was cringing as we drove by the turtle. He said: Should I go back? I said, nah, it'll be OK. I saw the look on his face and said, Yes! Stop! Let's go back. So, we did. He 'fixed' it and had a huge smile on his face. It would have eaten at him if we hadn't stopped.
He also gave away one of our good doghouses to a dog that was tied up and neglected and sleeping outside in cold weather. I completely supported it.
He routinely stops and gives money and food to homeless people.
We both support the Beagle Freedom Project and give to that cause.
He also gave away one of our good doghouses to a dog that was tied up and neglected and sleeping outside in cold weather. I completely supported it.
He routinely stops and gives money and food to homeless people.
We both support the Beagle Freedom Project and give to that cause.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Has he had any help with the ocd because that's exactly what hoarding is I think one of my uncle's is like that in Scotland
Maybe he should see someone about the OCD stuff.
Do your best
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 67,047
I only say because ocd is a recognised condition that there is help & treatment for I think we all have our quirks but if it is driving you to the point of insanity then it's not fair that you both suffer because of it
At least you have your space here with us and
At least you have your space here with us and
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
Posts: 61,512
Jennie, when you described your husband 'taking' the grocery shopping away from you, I feel that's okay, BUT when he plays the passive-aggressive game of calling you and making you decide about quantities, etc, that is bad. Passive-aggressive behaviour is very difficult to live with or to change because the person exhibiting the behaviour will always pretend innocence and you can never win.
I love that you are seeing your husband's good points, and if he's an animal lover, that goes a long way. It seems that he is holding on to anger that you caused debt. Do you see a way for him to begin to let go of that? As you said, you are repaying the debt which is great.
I've been married for a long time and one thing I know is that you have to forgive and you have to compromise in marriage. I used to cringe every time I heard that word, usually during an argument. To me, compromise simply meant, that no one would be happy with the outcome. As you said, you are at a critical point in your life and you don't want to continue 'as is'. If the two of you sit down and discuss the issue of house-cleaning vs your writing/studying, could you come up with a solution? You've said that you both want to move to a cabin in the woods, so could you come up with a joint plan to make that happen that would work for both of you? When you are quiet with yourself, how do you see yourself moving forward in your life? Are you alone or are you with your husband?
I love that you are seeing your husband's good points, and if he's an animal lover, that goes a long way. It seems that he is holding on to anger that you caused debt. Do you see a way for him to begin to let go of that? As you said, you are repaying the debt which is great.
I've been married for a long time and one thing I know is that you have to forgive and you have to compromise in marriage. I used to cringe every time I heard that word, usually during an argument. To me, compromise simply meant, that no one would be happy with the outcome. As you said, you are at a critical point in your life and you don't want to continue 'as is'. If the two of you sit down and discuss the issue of house-cleaning vs your writing/studying, could you come up with a solution? You've said that you both want to move to a cabin in the woods, so could you come up with a joint plan to make that happen that would work for both of you? When you are quiet with yourself, how do you see yourself moving forward in your life? Are you alone or are you with your husband?
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Okay, Jenny, it seems like it's hitting-the-fan time.
Whenever I work with a new couple, I'm heavily biased on the side of making things work, in part because many of them are feeling extremely hopeless, and also helpless, by the time they get to me. And they generally have good reason to feel that way. I never let that deter me. I can go from the wise old uncle to a tornado in the blink of a resentment when I'm working with couples. Sometimes the therapist's enthusiasm for the work can make a difference, and in any direction
There are times when one or both (usually just one) come in as a means of getting support and/or permission to leave the relationship, or to make the separation "official" in a safe place. Things get very difficult when the other person starts reading the handwriting on the wall. This often leads to an easier or somewhat less complicated resolution, but it just as often can turn things into an ugly battle. And the bar for "easier" is always set very high when working with couples.
I don't recall what it was, but I think I remember your giving an explanation as to why one or both of you cannot or will not go back to couples therapy. From my distant vantage point, I don't see that there's anything to lose by making a go of it again in therapy.
As for hoarding or holding onto things (or people) for which the "fresh until" date has expired, this is very common among people who've experienced traumatic loss, particularly loss in early childhood, and most especially when the loss and its associated feelings have been repressed or "intentionally forgotten." (Like terrorists, repressed thoughts and feelings, or intense thoughts and feelings that we choose not to confront or to instead neglect, are much more powerful, and therefore more dangerous, due to their being out of sight and out of mind. The past is forever present in the present, and never just goes away.) I hate to state the obvious in this way, but it would seem to me that between the two of you, and from what little I know about you both, you would be much more susceptible to hoarding-like behaviors than your husband. But then, I've learned that psychopathology and psychiatric symptoms are often whimsical by nature.
An attraction to animals, especially those who want or need our attention, can also indicate attempts to better manage an early, traumatic loss over which we had little or no control as well as an extremely limited capacity to process the loss at the time it occurred. Animals offer unconditional love. It's virtually impossible for them to hide things from us. They're always happy to see us. And, with the very notable exception of death (which typically stirs up feelings associated with the "original" loss or trauma), they will never abandon us.
So, you've already gotten a great deal of support and some excellent suggestions. It's a good thing to know everything, but it's dangerous to know too much. I've done too much work with couples, and I'm too far away to offer any professional advice. Not that you asked for it, but I'd be treading uncomfortably close to the line that separates helpful support from inappropriate or unprofessional behavior.
My hope is that you two can find a way to work with a competent professional who knows what she's doing.
Whenever I work with a new couple, I'm heavily biased on the side of making things work, in part because many of them are feeling extremely hopeless, and also helpless, by the time they get to me. And they generally have good reason to feel that way. I never let that deter me. I can go from the wise old uncle to a tornado in the blink of a resentment when I'm working with couples. Sometimes the therapist's enthusiasm for the work can make a difference, and in any direction
There are times when one or both (usually just one) come in as a means of getting support and/or permission to leave the relationship, or to make the separation "official" in a safe place. Things get very difficult when the other person starts reading the handwriting on the wall. This often leads to an easier or somewhat less complicated resolution, but it just as often can turn things into an ugly battle. And the bar for "easier" is always set very high when working with couples.
I don't recall what it was, but I think I remember your giving an explanation as to why one or both of you cannot or will not go back to couples therapy. From my distant vantage point, I don't see that there's anything to lose by making a go of it again in therapy.
As for hoarding or holding onto things (or people) for which the "fresh until" date has expired, this is very common among people who've experienced traumatic loss, particularly loss in early childhood, and most especially when the loss and its associated feelings have been repressed or "intentionally forgotten." (Like terrorists, repressed thoughts and feelings, or intense thoughts and feelings that we choose not to confront or to instead neglect, are much more powerful, and therefore more dangerous, due to their being out of sight and out of mind. The past is forever present in the present, and never just goes away.) I hate to state the obvious in this way, but it would seem to me that between the two of you, and from what little I know about you both, you would be much more susceptible to hoarding-like behaviors than your husband. But then, I've learned that psychopathology and psychiatric symptoms are often whimsical by nature.
An attraction to animals, especially those who want or need our attention, can also indicate attempts to better manage an early, traumatic loss over which we had little or no control as well as an extremely limited capacity to process the loss at the time it occurred. Animals offer unconditional love. It's virtually impossible for them to hide things from us. They're always happy to see us. And, with the very notable exception of death (which typically stirs up feelings associated with the "original" loss or trauma), they will never abandon us.
So, you've already gotten a great deal of support and some excellent suggestions. It's a good thing to know everything, but it's dangerous to know too much. I've done too much work with couples, and I'm too far away to offer any professional advice. Not that you asked for it, but I'd be treading uncomfortably close to the line that separates helpful support from inappropriate or unprofessional behavior.
My hope is that you two can find a way to work with a competent professional who knows what she's doing.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
The only loss he's mentioned to me is the time when his father lost his job and they suffered for 1-2 years when he was in middle school. He said at times they had to go without. This is also concerning because there are wealthy relatives he's mentioned. Why did they do nothing to help?
I believe there's more, personally. I see his interactions with his parents and there is this emotional lack. Yes, I come from much more dysfunction and traditional loss, but I see this coldness and emotional void when I see him interact with his parents. It is sad. I see his face when his mother is completely self-absorbed and doesn't respond to or recognize his need for their love and approval. His father is like a robot and the mother is over-the-top narcissist, childish, and self-absorbed. I could give some instances of interactions I've had with her that drove me to tears and more. I have had to cut off contact completely with his mother. She is absolutely infuriating and disregards others' feelings.
I have seen him turn on the dogs in front of me as well, to yank my chain. That is very concerning.
I do think he loves animals but ... I wonder how much of it is to put on a facade for me, because I love them so? He babies the dogs most of the time. He does it in front of me because I baby the dogs. But he yells and threatens and I ask him not to do it front of the dogs because they don't understand. He says, Oh, well, maybe you shouldn't have ticked me off or whatever. As if it's what I deserve for allowing things to get out of hand in front of the dogs. Does this make sense?
I believe there's more, personally. I see his interactions with his parents and there is this emotional lack. Yes, I come from much more dysfunction and traditional loss, but I see this coldness and emotional void when I see him interact with his parents. It is sad. I see his face when his mother is completely self-absorbed and doesn't respond to or recognize his need for their love and approval. His father is like a robot and the mother is over-the-top narcissist, childish, and self-absorbed. I could give some instances of interactions I've had with her that drove me to tears and more. I have had to cut off contact completely with his mother. She is absolutely infuriating and disregards others' feelings.
I have seen him turn on the dogs in front of me as well, to yank my chain. That is very concerning.
I do think he loves animals but ... I wonder how much of it is to put on a facade for me, because I love them so? He babies the dogs most of the time. He does it in front of me because I baby the dogs. But he yells and threatens and I ask him not to do it front of the dogs because they don't understand. He says, Oh, well, maybe you shouldn't have ticked me off or whatever. As if it's what I deserve for allowing things to get out of hand in front of the dogs. Does this make sense?
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Oh-by-the-way...I didn't mean to suggest that one needs to have "abandonment issues" (oh how I hate that expression, and not because it at one time applied to me) in order to have a healthy or loving relation with animals. In fact, having those kinds of relationships are both healthy and adaptive ways of managing loss. And I'm certain that every cat and every dog with whom I've shared my life would agree.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
When I'm quiet with myself, Anna, I am absorbed in thought most of the time. He doesn't figure into things much. And honestly, when he comes into mind it's mostly images or impressions of feeling stifled, hopeless, wasted, and regretful. I feel I have made a terrible mistake.
I see two lives running parallel ... the one I should've lived, and the one I'm living.
I see myself mostly alone.
I see two lives running parallel ... the one I should've lived, and the one I'm living.
I see myself mostly alone.
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