Dave9185

About withdrawal, I took 3 months off at the beginning of the year, and then during the first 3 weeks of the shutdown I was going through 250-500ml of liquor and 5-6 pints of beer daily. My usual bingeing before this would be Fri, Saturday; Sunday would be an unwind day, so maybe under ten 12 ouncers of beer. I would also have probably a six pack on Monday just to relieve the hell I was feeling from the weekend. Tues, Wed, Thur I was sober. Towards the end of it however, I noticed the hangovers kept lasting probably until Thursdays. This is why I took 3 months off at the beginning of the year. I was also having trouble sleeping and high blood pressure. After my 3 week binge, I noticed something was off, I wasn't feeling good. At this time I started feeling off, foggy, high anxiety. I stopped drinking for a couple of weeks. I felt better, and had a drunk weekend ~3 weeks later, on Sunday I started getting the high anxiety and fogginess again. I didn't drink for 3 weeks, went out, had only 1 shot, felt alright, had 4 beers at home, and the next day I felt alright. The following weekend, I was feeling alright, and went out and had a drunk weekend again (Fri, Sat). This time, it wasn't a two week period of recovery. It's been about 3 months now, and I am slowly getting back to normal. I've kindled, and the withdrawals pretty much set in on that Sunday, after my drunk Fri and Sat. So basically I don't think I can drink anymore without experiencing severe and prolonged withdrawal symptoms, which seem to come on or blend into acute withdrawal. 2 months ago, I was having anxiety just taking a trip to the DMV. Today I went to vote, and it wasn't so bad. So I'm making progress.

I might of skipped over a few drunk weekends in my time line, my last drink was June 27th. However in July I was taking motherwort, which has ethanol in it, 3 tablespoons per day. So I'm either 3 or 4 months sober depending on if we count the motherwort, I honestly think it slowed down my recovery, so that's why I only consider myself 3 months sober. Either way I can't go back to drinking, the withdrawal is horrible for me now. Plus I have a mildly fatty and mildly enlarged liver to take care of. The fogginess is much better this week than last.

drycucumber77

That is very interesting - thank you again for your feedback. I think opinions are fine and yours are always so helpful. It's not medical advice But based on this logic once paws stops all these receptors must have returned to some version of normal. I guess the tricky part is really distinguishing what is PAWS and what is normal high - stress. If theoretically after paws one ends up having a couple of beers every now and again 5 years down the track...not that one would want to... I wouldn't imagine one would start withdrawing again and be thrown in to paws...otherwise one would not have really healed in the first place.

ant385

I don’t think it will happen overnight but I also don’t think it will take much. The best person to comment on this is the original poster of this thread. As I remember him saying he tried out sensible drinking a few years down the line and it did not end very well. What you got to ask yourself is this. Is it really worth taking the risk to go through all this again? when you are PAWS free... which you will be. It is a certainty with continued sobriety ... enjoy being free! So many windows of opportunity will present themselves. No more hangovers after partying etc, more productive, happier healthier more ambition! You will be reborn again.

ant385

Dave, I think with the motherwort you should be ok. It may seem like you slowed recovery but it is probably just a PAWS wave you are having. You was not taking the motherwort to get drunk although 3 table spoons probably should have been teaspoons lol. I would try avoid anything with ethanol in it for now though including things like mouthwash. I avoid everything. I will not have anything that’s been cooked in red wine. My family say I am being ridiculous but I no longer want any association with alcohol. I’d rather have my lamb cooked in cow ****.

Dave9185

Yeah, it's just at that point I didn't really know how serious this PAWS thing was. During that time I was still thinking that I'll just recover within 2 weeks, just like all the other times. Except as I was taking the motherwort for a month, I really wasn't recovering, and the fact that after 2 weeks of being sober, I was still messed up, really raised my anxiety. I was still messed up 2 months after stopping the motherwort. I'm still messed up now, 4 months in, just not to such a degree. I've had blood tests done around Feb, and they were fine. I had blood tests done in early June (at the ER) which showed normal levels (at this point an x-ray was taken and did not show anything abnormal), and blood tests again in early July at my cardiologists', which was a few days after my weekend binge, and the results as the doctor said, were perfect. Only just this past month I got results from my ultrasound which showed that I have a slightly enlarged and slightly fatty liver. The ultrasound was not liver specific, but for the whole abdominal area.

I've also been having soreness in my back and abdominal area recently. I've experienced it months ago, it went away and now it's back. I don't understand what that's about. Is it my liver healing itself? Is there some other organ that is damaged which I don't know about? Is this what fatty liver pain feels like? The ultrasound only showed the issue with my liver...

At least I'm not as foggy today as I was a few weeks ago. So far today and yesterday, I've only noticed the fog for maybe 3 hours out of the whole day, and it's not as severe as I remember it.

I understand that during this recovery I'm very sensitive to my body, and the slightest things make me think of the worst, but has anyone experienced any abdominal discomfort like a soreness feel (not in the belly, but more on the sides both left and right rib area), or an on/off pinching feeling in the pectorals? None of it is severe pain btw, just noticeable. I wonder if it could be physical pain manifesting from prolonged state of anxiety?

OP mentioned that he was sober for about 3 years after his severe PAWS, and that he started drinking moderately again, and it put him back into PAWS, but more severe than the last time. For me personally, I think I have experienced enough, I'm not drinking ever again. However I've thought about it, not craving, but just thinking, 5 to 10 years down the road, what if... I would think the "safest" way would be to just have one beer, and one beer only, then wait a month to see if you experienced anything negative, then if you're ok, have 2 beers in one day, then wait a month to see what happens... and I guess keep doing that until you reach your binge level again? lol. Seems like a lot of work, not worth it... I do wonder what was moderate for OP that his moderation threw him into PAWS again. If Ttamelbon cares to share what his dosage was, that would be pretty enlightening. As someone still in PAWS I do still wonder, how the heck can this happen where even after years of sobriety, this thing will come back stronger even if drinking in moderation...

ant385

Sounds you are healing pretty well Dave. But seriously my recommendation is not to experiment with how much alcohol you can get away with. For me it’s like someone who has come off benzo’s saying.... I wonder how much Valium I can reintroduce and get away with it... alcohol is a drug and a very powerful one. It is your addiction to it that is making you think this way. Don’t listen to it.

biminiblue

Dave, no one is going to recommend trying a one beer/two beer "experiment." Best to just call it quits.

Moderation attempts - once you've reached the level of withdrawal complications you are suffering? Does that make any sense at all? C'mon, man.

Dave9185

It was just something that I was thinking about, because you got to admit PAWS acts really strange. I don't want to drink, however out of curiosity I was just thinking that would be the safest way, and this goes to people who are willing to do it. Not me though. I only mentioned it because in our community people relapse, and instead of going sober for years and then relapsing bad into PAWS again, it would probably be the safest way to do it. No matter how many times we tell our friends on here to stop drinking, we know not everyone will listen. Maybe a very slow way to do this would save someone the additional headache of another prolonged PAWS experience.

I'm going through my own little hell today and last night. I was reading on cirrhosis and saw an image of pimples on a person with cirrhosis, and I noticed I have a few pimples on my chest as well, and they have been there for weeks. I never thought much about it until I saw the image last night. I couldn't sleep, and currently shaky from health anxiety. My liver never really hurt, I have had dull and pinching pains around my abdomen and shoulder blade, and under the armpit area a few months ago, and it came back recently. My blood results have always come back normal. I have never experienced jaundice or the typical symptoms of cirrhosis. My ultrasound showed a slightly enlarged and slightly fatty liver. The ultra sound was done around 3 months after my last weekend binge. I'm worried that I've healed a lot in the last 3 months, and covered up the severity of my liver damage where the ultrasound only shows mildly enlarged/fatty (meaning I'm horrified to think of what my liver looked like 3 months ago). Obviously it's good that nothing serious was discovered... I hope the people know what I mean by saying this. I think I need to do that FibroScan that some people have mentioned on the board. I barely slept last night and will continue to do more research. Another thing is, waiting for results is just a hell of at time in itself... I don't know if I'm up for that at the moment. Once again the question is am I nuts or is my fear sensible? IDK. Obviously I don't expect nor want medical advice on here, however anyone care to share similar experiences, would really appreciate it.

biminiblue

I wouldn't start suggesting a moderated drinking "plan" for "our community."

NO drinking is the plan here. Please stop telling people to start drinking slower.


Alcoholics don't do Slow when it comes to drinking - if we did, we wouldn't need to stop drinking.

Dave9185

I'm just going to stop talking about. It's just that people on this thread have dealt with PAWS again even after they recovered from previous PAWS after staying sober for years. Many people in this situation think after years of sobriety their bodies healed enough and they can go out and have a good time with moderate drinking only to find out that they over did it again, and paying hefty consequences for that. I'm only emphasizing how serious this is, by stating that people shouldn't drink, but if you aren't going to listen to us abstainers on this thread, then you have to be really really careful; because even moderate drinking after experiencing PAWS can put you back at square one or worse.

Andante

Not a bad idea. To me the whole discussion is nonsensical. Alcoholics cannot drink moderately. If they could, they wouldn't be alcoholics. Anyone who suffers from PAWS is by definition an alcoholic, because you can't develop the kind of withdrawals that linger or recur for months or years (the very definition of PAWS) without having established extreme levels of tolerance and dependence in the first place. Therefore any discussion of PAWS sufferers returning to moderate drinking makes no sense.

drycucumber77

Forget the idea of drinking. The initial point for me was that if you are actually healed from paws...then to me that would mean returning to the physical, mental and psychological state you were at before drinking - that would surely constitute being healed. If for example someone was a heavy drinker for three years, gave up cold turkey, went through horrible paws, abstained for ten years, then started drinking within the guidelines and found themselves back in PAWS....then how could one have been healed? Now this is where it gets extremely complicated for me - when I started drinking I had a lot of anxiety already, I would get stage fright and palpitations already, I was nervous and fearful already, I was a worrier and all those things already. My relationship with drinking helped to combat all of those things until life through serious curve balls at me and went from drinking too much to abusing alcohol without totally realizing it. At 11 months in still anxious and shaky...and still feel like I'm not breathing properly at times...I'm of course wondering whether i will even realize when I have gone through PAWS and am just back to the normal pre-drinking condition. Because then may be I would have to take something to combat the anxiety, and as I really do not want to introduce anything foreign to my body that you have to withdraw from like ad's, like alcohol, like valium ect...which are all just poisons..I would be struggling for solutions. Anyway on a brighter note let's hope the next year is better than this one!!!

slimjim30

I'm glad I found this thread, as I had the same issue when I quit alcohol. I still use benzos irregularly (I've never been addicted to them - I only take them intermittently).

After acute withdrawal I felt ok for a day or two then PAWS started and got gradually worse over time (I made it to 11 months one time). My PAWS symptoms involved:

• Weakness throughout my body;
• Blurred vision;
• Nausea;
• SEVERE depression (so severe it caused vomiting and twitching);
• Total loss of interest in life;
• Complete inability to make important decisions;
• Severe GI Issues;
• Migraines;
• One pupil dilating much larger than the other(!!?).

I tried Naltrexone, Campral and Antabuse (and other drugs for the symptoms mentioned) and it didn't affect PAWS either way. I spoke to Doctor's (GP, Psychiatrist, Gastroenterologist, Neurologist, Diagnostic Physician - like Dr House). Nothing was diagnostically wrong with me.

It all went away within 24-48 hours of resumption of drinking each time. I was (and still am) jealous of all those people who say that after a few weeks of sobriety you begin to feel better and better as for me I went downhill every time, for a long time.

I ended up quitting for good 4.5 years ago now, however I took a path that wouldn't be recommended by anyone - that is highly likely not to result in PAWS. It has worked for me so I can't complain. I can still have a casual drink too which is kinda cool. I tend to choose not to as I dislike it so much - but the option is there for work dinner's when it's important.

Jim

Dee74

Man I didn't suffer anything like some of you guys have...and nothing would make me drink again.

I dunno how you still occasional drinkers do it.
To me that's like doing yourself in gasoline and playing with matches.

You never know which match might catch

D

ant385

Slim Jim Why is important to have a drink at a works dinner? Will you get a disciplinary if you have an orange juice? Lol. again it’s just addiction and brainwashing that makes these social occasions seem impossible without taking drugs. It’s sad really. Not blaming you but society as a whole that we don’t take a good look in the mirror and realise how pathetic all the brainwashing is. You can’t socialise without being sedated! Ludicrous!

ant385

Dave, you are welcome here and you are welcome to have an opinion. You will not be the first and you won’t be the last to think moderation might be a good idea. We just don’t want you to go through hell. you have two types of people when it comes to drinking. Those who think about the next drink and those who do not. In my opinion you can change the latter to the first category easily but it is near impossible for someone who thinks about the next drink to stop doing so. As you are signed up to a forum called sober recovery I am going to take an educated guess you fall into this bucket. Please keep us updated on your progress.

LateBloominCait

PAWS is absolutely a real thing and I am not saying I disbelieve anything anyone is saying. That said, some of the issues people are describing sound like they could be medical events unrelated to alcohol. Even if you had never picked up a drink, your body is still going to age and begin to have disease processes. Make totally certain that you aren't in denial about health issues and using PAWS to avoid dealing with them. Even people who never picked up a drink in their lives get sick eventually because death is an inevitable part of life. Go see a doctor if you have medical issues going on months or years after giving up alcohol. Sure, the symptoms may be due to PAWS, but what if they aren't? Sober people can get cancer, heart disease or other medical problems. There is no harm in going to a doctor to rule out anything more serious. You may add many years to your life if you get a professional opinion.

Dave9185

I can't do moderation, I've tried, it never worked. I either drink 20 beers or nothing. Not drinking is not hard to do for me, it was always the moderation part that I could never accomplish. I won't be drinking anymore because I won't risk it knowing that I have a mildly enlarged and fatty liver. I never said I was going to drink, I was just thinking hypothetically based on the fact that there are people who go through this PAWS crap, but then after years of being sober, go back to drinking. At this point, even if/when my liver recovers to a healthy state, I understand damaging it again with alcohol will take a lot shorter time than the first time, and I won't be playing games with that.

ant385

Good man Dave.
I think generally people have a short memory. They forget how rubbish they felt hence why they think drinking again might be ok.

this forum is getting a lot of mileage. Dee will have to set up a part two before long

slimjim30

I used to agree. As I mentioned, the way I quit is different and not recommended, however it has ruined alcohol for me forever. No buzz. If I have 1 drink it's ok, but my second drink makes me nauseous.

I didn't quit on purpose, it happened by accident. As such, I've tested drinking and the most I could stomach was about 4 drinks and then I had a monster hangover. As such, I never have more than 1, and the last time I did that was a few weeks back. I have alcohol in the house (carton of beer) that has lasted a year.

Anyway - I'm not here to promote casual drinking as it's likely to cause many people to pick up again. It would've for me in the past.