SaberK33

I have also found the website anxietycentre.com to be an absolute godsend of a resource. I would encourage you to give that a look as well they have countless articles and information, much of which has helped me with my symptoms.

drycucumber77

All I can say is that had I been aware of what I was going to go through I would have never stopped drinking cold turkey (doctors order)...I would have cut down a great deal instead! I am now getting chills, cold sweats and headaches ect...any symptom I mention is always in addition to anxiety which is ever present.
PAWS seems to be recognized all over google, with a plethora of rehabilitation centres wanting to help and yet medical practitioners are not aware of it. Bizarre.Hundreds of millions of alcoholics in the world and the MD do not recognize it.This is criminal and incredible. From what I have read, there only seems to be one medication called campral that really can help with PAWS and yet very few alcoholics seem to know anything about it. More bizarre! You'd think that this would be the most well known drug in the world! Non addictive, no side effects, extremely useful for anxiety, not even metabolized by liver...strange. Having gone to university, I would say at least half the people I knew had a substance abuse problem and did not even realize it, mostly alcohol, weed, pills ect...I was a social butterfly always out for a good time but have to be honest and say I never bumped in to anyone who experienced PAWS in my life before this nightmare started and I am not questioning it for one second. But that is also undeniably bizarre. I know alcoholics in there 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s...they have never mentioned it to me.
It is pretty clear to me that the biggest mistake I made was being told to give up cold turkey...no doubt that is what has completely shocked my nervous system in to oblivion. The truth is I have never met anyone in my life who gave up booze for a year and did not feel fantastic which really grinds me and angers me. Because the bottom line in the coming years... will be if I don't get better will I be prepared to risk taking another drug that may deal with these issues or go back to the one that did...
I never considered myself to be an alcoholic. In fact it was not until six months in to PAWS that I realized what the definition of alcoholic must mean...seems all these years I got it wrong.... my years of binge drinking with everyone constituted alcohol abuse...continual alcohol abuse created a chemical dependence and I did not even realize it. It is true that I have had no difficulty not drinking in the last year - so I am not sure how you define that kind of dependence, it is also true that I have had one hell of a bad time..and but for my absolute resilience and refusal to give in and but for this forum, I would be looking for a coping mechanism - People in general including family members are not really interested in hearing that on Mondays you have palpitations on Tuesday you have headaches on Wednesdays you have Panic and on Thursdays you have Panic and anxiety again ect for a whole year, they start to think you are a bit nuts and I don't blame them.. I'm going to try and hit smoking out of the ball park now as well and go on the gum. Has anyone had any experience in giving up smoking after a years recovery?

Paxia

Dry: The definition of dependence is when the brain and body depend chemically on a substance to function like normal and when that substance is taken away it goes through withdrawals. Someone who’s body does not get dependent on substances do not get withdrawals. I was told by my doctor to not even attempt to quit smoking cigarettes yet. She said it drastically increases anxiety and panic attacks. Told me to wait until my body starts healing from this first. Quitting smoking would only make it worse.

Saber: thank you for your reply. I tried to sign up for benzo buddies. At first it wouldn’t let me. Then it was asking me to pay a subscription fee. While I love reading success stories and being able to relate to other people going through the same as I, I really would rather not have to pay a yearly fee.

ant385

You are more than welcome to stay here Paxia. Besides I think the difference between PAWS from alcohol and PAWS from benzo’s is probably negligible. They both involve down regulated GABA receptors. I sometimes read the threads over there but I won’t bother signing up. This is my home. Lol.

SaberK33

Hey Paxia, idk why it’s asking you to pay, I never had to sign up or pay and I am able to view all the success stories, that’s weird !

Dave9185

I also sort of did cold turkey after my 3 week binge, however I always drank till excess and then just stopped. Plus, even after that 3 weeks, I was sober for a few weeks and then went out and drank on the weekends again. However my hangovers just ended up lasting and lasting. The last few weekend binges had my bp up real high, and anxiety, and everything. Pretty much at this point I realized for whatever reason, my body cannot handle alcohol anymore. But my main point is after the weekend binge, I would feel like crap for 2 weeks, but would come out of it. That's why I kept going out to drink on weekends this summer. Except the last time that I drank on the weekend (i drank less than usual actually), I felt awful, but it wasn't any worse than my weekend binge before that. However this time around, I couldn't get back to normal after 2 weeks of sobriety, the fog, the anxiety just stuck! And now I'm still stuck in this crap, although getting better. I don't think the cold turkey did me in, I think it was the kindling effect that lead to the PAWS. The health anxiety isn't helping either, but every ache and pain puts me in a bad mood with high anxiety, and it's really frustrating. Am I feeling better today than a month ago? Yes.

The medical industry can't tackle PAWS because it's a cluster of symptoms, but they will only tackle individual symptoms. The problem is there isn't a cure for brain fog, and most of the time they can't even diagnose the reason why it's there. You would have to go to the doctor and treat each individual symptom, however some of the symptoms the doctors won't know how to cure. The only thing I'm sure of is that my excessive alcohol consumption is the reason why I feel like crap, and I can only pray that this stuff goes away with longer sobriety.

As far as others go, the reason why I haven't heard much about PAWS from other people who drink is that I don't really know anyone who binged like me, and the people that I know who drink either don't binge, or never stop drinking. I guess if you don't stop drinking, you body just handles it for the time being. Instead I guess I was just jerking my CNS around with the drinking/not drinking all the time, and it finally caught up to me.

I think I can easily classify myself as an alcoholic because I cannot drink in moderation. If I can't drink 12 beers in a night, I'd rather not drink at all. That's been me pretty much my entire life.

ttamelbon

Hi drycucumber,

I know it's unbidden, but I wanted to weigh in on the smoking thing. Smoking actually correlates highly *with* anxiety. It does all the things that your nervous system conflates with stress: increased BP, heart rate, mental stimulation, etc.

As a former smoker, I tried to quit numerous times and one of the symptoms that was the strongest for me was sleepiness. I would nap and nap and nap.

As much as I'm not a doctor and can't offer any medical advice, I think it would be life advice to suggest at least giving it a shot. If it gets to be too stressful, you can always go back to smoking. But if it actually calms you down, it might be worth it.

And I can totally relate to people thinking you're nuts for having these symptoms. It's been one of the most humbling aspects of slogging through this thing. You tell people your symptoms and you can see the looks on their faces, as they vacillate between pity, curiosity, and apprehension. Throw in the fact that you spend so much time nursing your symptoms on your couch or wherever that you start to look like Howard Hughes.

No matter how credible of a person you are, you become something of a freak when you open up about this little curse.

I'm on the tail end of a week of horrid anxiety, nausea, and feeling hungover without the benefit of intoxication, and after 19 months of sobriety, too. It's a B-word, no doubt. I'm glad this is the last time I'll do this.

Matt

Paxia

Ant- thank you for being so gracious and accepting of me and my tribulations even though I’m not 100% specifically in the same category as far as the substance. I really appreciate it. Actually thank you to all of you reply and still trying to help. It means ALOT!

Has anyone had the anxiety so bad that it caused severe PVCs? I’m wondering if mine is so bad that it will never heal. It’s just extremely intense. Also the Metoprolol that I am on to calm the PVCS (which it does) increases gaba in the brain and changes the density and infinity of the gaba receptors. I feel like that’s not helping me heal at all. But I can’t stop the metoprolol due to the non sustained heart beat the anxiety gives me. Its a complete double edged sword.

ttelbom: (I forgot how to spell your username). Thank you so much for starting this thread. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading through it many times. And I’ve followed you’re follow up posts. If you don’t mind my asking, why were you put on Valium this time? Was it just because of the anxiety or did you eventually have a seizure this time? I’m curious because the days when this gets really bad I sometimes feel like I might have one. I just get out of my head and feel like I’m not there. It’s a horrible feeling.

ttamelbon

Hi Paxia,

As for PVCs, I didn't get them much until my 2nd and 3rd year of sobriety. At first they were worrisome, but by my third year, I was so calm and relaxed (and healed...sigh) that I sometimes had 100 of them in a day and didn't even care. I was exercising a lot, I have fabulous yearly check-ups, and I knew it was my body healing. But if I had them to that degree this go 'round, I would be worried sick.

I was put on Valium because I had something that was beyond a standard panic attack. It was quite crippling: it was an otherworldly sense of doom where I couldn't walk, was shaking, and my hands were like I was gripping a live wire. It felt like fear had been distilled into a hellish chemical and injected directly into my brain. I thought it was a seizure because my head was rocking back and forth and I couldn't stop it. The doctors were less concerned, but I needed something. I had about 40mg of valium the first day and second day, then about 16 for a few days and started to taper quickly. I got down to 2mg. My muscles were jerking everywhere and the fear started to get so bad that I couldn't do anything. I was advised to go up to 8mg. Over the past 18 months I've tapered down to 2.45mg. I know it's barely an active dose, but I'm still healing, so I have to go slowly.

I understand your fear of seizures. With epilepsy tests and brain scans, my doctor has reassured me that there's no way I'm going to have a seizure even if I CT my valium. But all of my experiences tell me that I'm not normal in how my body reacts to withdrawal. I wonder if I'd be the first to seize off such a small amount. Hell, I was only drinking a little when I flipped out last time. And this PAWS has been ridiculous...so much more unpleasant than the first time.

But yeah, you're unlikely to have a seizure at this stage, if I read your history correctly. I know the panic can make you feel like it's the next logical step, like "If this gets any worse, what choice would my body have but to start convulsing?" But I've forced myself to believe two things: 1) seizures are actually incredibly rare with benzos and GABApentins for people who didn't have seizure issues previously, and 2) There only exist two cases of death by seizure from benzos on the English speaking internet. And one of them was a woman that had been taking benzos for years and hundreds of mgs of Xanax for a week and CT'd. Like all anxiety, it's non-fatal (even though sometimes it's arguably worse than I imagine a nice gentle dirtnap would be).

Hang in there. We're all going to pull through, even though it feels like we won't. These will be harrowing stories that we'll look back on when we've regained our places among the living.

Paxia

yeah the worry over a seizure is bad!!! I do not have a history of seizure disorders but I do feel like I might have one at times. The PVCS get worse after I eat. It’s like my nervous system goes haywire once it starts to digest food! And the dry mouth still hasn’t went away. Today is 66 days and while some things have gotten a bit better as far as symptoms, some have gotten worse.

So I’m wondering if everything kindles. Like for example you are going through alcohol withdrawal. Would the Valium rekindle you since it directly affects your gaba neurotransmitters and increases your gaba like alcohol does. Or does the kindling just happen with recurrent use of the same substance that caused it in the first place? Does anyone know?

ttamelbon

Hi Paxia,

I've had the thing with PVCs after eating. It's a little controversial, but the vagus nerve runs parallel to your esophagus and carries signals all through your nervous system. You'll find that people who have GERD also complain of PVCs. Doctors call them idiopathic, but there seems to be some very direct correlation between the two things.

We have to remember that our CNS's are on fire. They're completely overstimulated and overstimulatable. The vagus nerve is part of that CNS, so it stands to reason that there might be some connection.

As for the kindling, almost anything that causes changes in neurotransmitters can kindle, it would seem. And even though alcohol and benzos are cross tolerant, I suspect (and this is only my suspicion) that some people who are predisposed to alcohol might not have the degree of affinity for benzos on a neurotransmitter level. Of course, if you were to take a person with no history of alcohol and someone like me, I'd guess that the former is less likely to get addicted to benzos. But I suspect that GABA neurotransmitters might have more of an affinity for alcohol if you're an alcoholic.

In all my time spent on Benzobuddies, I don't recall one person who quit alcohol, used benzos, and got right into them at any high dose for a long period of time. That's obviously anecdotal, but it makes sense to me that the body has a pretty good idea what it likes. I've never liked benzos. I loved booze. I started drinking so early in life that my brain grew around alcohol like a tree can grow around a fence post. I've been on benzos for 19 months, always tapering, and I've never had one dream about pills. But I dream all the time about alcohol.

Alcohol is what got me here and once I'm out of the woods, I have no doubt that it'll be the main villain of the story.

I guess the tl;dr of that is "I don't *know* know, but I have a hunch that your primary drug of choice will kindle you more than a therapeutic one. But I stress that I don't know...

Paxia

I got put on benzos because of a traumatic experience that was causing horrific nightmares. I didn’t know my medication sensitivity would get me so chemically dependent on them or any drug. I thought the doctors would know. Apparently they didn’t. I did my own research and found that people with medication sensitivities get chemically dependent on substances faster. I’m hoping all of this heals. It’s feels like for me with only 2 months of Ativan at only 2mg per day and 23 days of gabapentin it’s going to take a ridiculously LONG time to heal. I have not had a single symptom free day yet. And these PVCS even on heart medication still get scary.

Graceful123

Good time of day all,

This is my first time posting on this forum (any forum actually) so I apologize if I'm doing something wrong. I will try to the best of my abilities follow all the rules. From what I understand I am not allowed to make suggestions so I will just share my experience. I apologize for how long this post turned out to be but I'd like to be as detailed as possible so those folks who are struggling can take solace that they're not alone (I thank all the people who posted their own stories above, they helped me just like hopefully they will help others.)

I'd like to give a small background to my issue before I jump into my PAWS

I started drinking at the age of 25 due to a relationship problem. It escalated to a very serious issue by the age of 28 where I would down a small bottle of vodka and chase it down with a litre and a half of wine just to get through the day. The last straw in the drinking for me was when I woke up in the middle of the night after such a drinking night and kept hearing a voice in my head saying "don't listen to the voice" over and over again. That's when I decided to entirely eliminate alcohol from my life.

It was not easy. I quit cold turkey on July 6th. I had to call 911 I believe on the first or second night after I quit (memories from this time are understandably foggy.) I got through the first 4 days with a tapering prescription of Diazepam (it worked wonders) and potentially I saved myself from a pretty nasty case of the seizures. I never had a seizure in my life but before I took my first pill of Diazepam, I can clearly remember the feeling of everything going black in front of my eyes and severe shaking, I don't know how a seizure starts but I imagine it was something like that. The ambulance got to me in time and I had my first pill of diazepam shortly after.

PAWS set in immediately after I ran out of Diazepam. Days were horrible. Anxiety was through the roof. Feelings of detachment from reality (even speaking to a coworker felt otherworldy at times). Falling asleep was awful, I kept waking up incredibly dizzy to the point where I had to jump out of bed and stare at a spot in the room just to keep the planet from spinning around me. The first 4 days I slept for a total of 2 hours, able to sleep only due to some relaxing music and 7 pills of melatonin on day 4. Uneasiness. I understood then what addicts go through when they shake uncontrollably during the first days of their withdrawals, everything is irritating, skin feels like it's being gently poked with a needle EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME.

About 3 weeks in my anxiety hit a record high. Just talking to a neighbour seemed like the end of the world. I can't explain the number of times I thought or googled "dementia self-test" and "schizophrenia symptoms" because I thought my mind was damaged. To this day I remember one day where I thought "I have to call my mom and tell her I'm checking into a mental institution because this is it for me."

About 6 weeks in things started to look a LITTLE BIT better. How I got through the first six weeks still baffles me. I think I was on some sort of autopilot, torturous, painful autopilot, just trying to survive. Everything was a chore. I hated sunlight, I hated when it wasn't night. I thought "what's the point" and so on. I remember that at the time I said to myself "the only reason why I won't drink is because I won't let this thing beat me, I have too much pride and too much to live for".

One other thing I must mention. The panic attacks. I never had them before I went down this path but in the first weeks of abstinence they were horrible. The English language (No language really) can describe the feeling of withdrawal-induced panic attacks. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. Panic attacks could have been set off by anything. I rode a quiet, calm bus one time and got a severe panic attack because I saw clouds moving in the sky. Yes, that happened.

I made numerous trips to doctors but they said "it will pass", one prescribed me a little bit of Gabapentin, but at the time in early detox my mind was such a mess that I don't know whether or not those pills helped. Basically I was settled with doing this on my own, however long it takes.

Two months into abstinence I had a few days where I felt good, and then I got a panic attack and decided to relieve it with a few beers. Please do not, under any circumstances, drink ANYTHING alcoholic during your recovery. The alcohol itself triggered a week-long partial return to withdrawals. Same irritability, same anxiety, everything. On top of that I had a tooth infection and got prescribed Tylenol-3. Big mistake taking those during PAWS. For the small pain relief I got for a few days I paid in a two-week return to the bad parts of withdrawal. What I learned for myself is any substance that clouds your mind will inhibit AND reverse some progress you've made during recovery (I am not claiming that this is universal, this was, however, true for me. And this makes sense since your mind is essentially learning to operate in real life)

Fast forward to today. It has now been almost 5 months since I quit (mind you I have had a few beers between then and now and I've paid for it emotionally and physically). The symptoms have gotten MUCH better. I have not had a panic attack in a while. Dizziness and disorientation are still present but to a much lesser degree. Derealization/Depersonalization are far more seldom. Overall I'm improving. It is still tough to fall asleep without feeling dizzy/like I'm falling through the floor. Things still irritate me quite heavily AND I have a hard time being in places where I was during my initial withdrawal period. I feel like this is because these places are associated with the trauma of early detox. For those who are just starting their journey and need to hear this: it DOES get better. This is not an opinion of someone who studied this in journals or read forums. This is someone who has lived it and is living it still. My symptoms are there, the torturous moments of PAWS are still there but they are MILES better than they were 5 months ago.

One other thing. This is a comparison I made in my head for PAWS and staying clean. Alcohol is like a dull knife and your mind is like your arm. If you have no problems with alcohol and you take a few shots or have a beer with buddies every now and again, it's as if you run the dull knife across your arm and nothing bad really happens, you probably won't even feel it. If you drink all day, every day, it's as if you are taking the dull knife to your arm and continuously sliding it back and forth across your arm until you pierce the skin, the muscle and into the bone. Once that happens, it will hurt and take a long time to heal. If you let it heal part way, and you take that dull knife and start sliding it across your partially healed arm, the dull knife will reignite all the pain of a wound that just started to heal. I am sorry if it's a silly comparison but it made sense in my head.

Thank you all!

jwalsh

i can relate to PAWS

ant385

Welcome graceful123 .

great post and a great analogy but you not think it’s best not to slide the knife at all now? What worries me about your post is you said you have had a few beers now and then during recovery. I am worried because once you are recovered you may find yourself on that slippery slope again and have to go through all this rubbish again with quite possibly worse symptoms. And it may take a lot longer than 5 months to see recovery.

I would seriously consider throwing that knife in the bin where it belongs.

Graceful123

Thank you for welcoming me,

I 100% agree with you Ant385, there is no more drinking in store for me. I may perhaps at some point in life return to some casual drinking with friends and family but that is a long way away.

Just a quick update, I want to specify that I drank for a shorter (relatively) period of time than most people who's experiences I read on this website but my issue was how much I would drink. Towards the end of my drinking, especially during the initial weeks of lock down, I could have easily downed a 26 ounce bottle of vodka, 1.5L bottle of 12% wine and perhaps on a bad day even grab a 6 pack on top of that. So I figured out that it's not only how LONG you've been drinking, but also how MUCH you have been drinking that determines how painful your recovery will be.

I've celebrated my 5 months detox yesterday and I'm happy to provide you with an update on my overall symptoms as of yesterday:
- Anxiety is much better now, I would rate it a 2-3 out of 10, compared to 10 out of 10 on the first few weeks of detox. At times I forget anxiety is even there
- I have went from sleeping 5-6 hours a night to sleeping well over 8, I am not sure if this is good or bad, but I'm glad to be having good sleep
- I don't wake up or fall asleep dizzy anymore. There are occasional spells of feeling like I'm "falling through my bed" while I'm falling asleep but they're far more rare and less scary
- I have not had a panic attack, depersonalization, derealization (this one was the scariest for me) or fog brain in some weeks now
- Appetite is excellent
- I am interested in things now. Thinking about Christmas actually makes me feel happy as opposed to before where I just didn't care about anything
- I haven't had a spell of depression for over a week now, I go about my day and enjoy being alive and doing small things
- The one remaining symptom that I notice daily still is the dizziness I get in open spaces, bright lights and while walking really fast, sometimes it feels like my head is spinning just a little bit, but that seems to be getting better as well, although this is the slowest symptom to improve.

Once again, I know how I felt in my first weeks of detox and how scary it was so I can reassure whomever is reading this and whomever is suffering that PAWS gets much better, you just have to wait it out. Use all the resources you have. If you're worried that you might have a concurrent condition that feels like PAWS but isn't, get it checked out by a doctor. Do not be shy thinking that they will judge you, I am sure they have seen far worse things.

Graceful123

One big one I forgot to mention: Aphasia. About 3 months in when my fog cleared up and I started getting relatively rational about things, I noticed it's very hard for me sometimes to formulate meaningful sentences. If I'm writing a business email, I've noticed a lot more often I'll leave out words that were in my head but I never ended up putting them on paper. I also sometimes forget basic words that I've been using all my life and will misspell words that I know perfectly well.

Keep at it everyone, it gets easier.

Andante

I fear you may be making a couple of common mistakes here. Common they may be -- but they are always costly, and potentially lethal.

You may be confusing abstinence with control, and remission with healing.

Just because you have abstained successfully from alcohol for 5 months does not mean you now have control over your drinking. The pages of SR are littered with accounts from the broken souls of alcoholics who tried to resume drinking like a "normal" person, and quickly found themselves worse off than they were before. "I thought I could have just one," and "I was so sure I could control it this time," are sadly common refrains. Time and again, the adage "Once a pickle, never again a cucumber" is borne out as gospel truth. Sure, you may be the one in a million who is able to "return to some casual drinking," but especially given what you've just been through, is it really worth the risk?

Similarly, the underlying changes to your brain and nervous system due to alcohol damage do not revert to a previous state just because you stopped drinking. The symptoms of PAWS may go into remission with time and abstinence, but that doesn't mean you're healed. The potential will always be there for the symptoms to reactivate, and it's pretty much guaranteed to happen if you drink in any quantity. Through the process known as "kindling," (which is kind of just a more scientific way of saying "once a pickle, never again a cucumber"), once the potential for severe withdrawals and PAWS has been established, it remains with you for the rest of your days. "Kindling" is forever.

I with you well with continued abstinence and hope you will reconsider before trying to resume any sort of casual drinking.

Graceful123

Very much agreed with you Andante,

I simply, like many on this forum, don't have that option. And even the fact that I broke about 2 months in was a big mistake. But we are only human after all.

wildbill3285455

I am in my second month of being sober from alcohol (I was a binge drinker for 10 years) and After reading a lot of these posts. I am concerned because my post alcohol withdrawal syndrome is different then brain fog. I went to the doctors 3 times got blood work they said it was normal I thought I had liver cancer they did a ultrasound last week everything was normal. I am still constantly fatigued all day and still get stomach pains when I eat and bad reflux. I was wondering if any one else had the fatigue reflux and stomach pains at this stage and if so how long until I feel semi normal again?