Finding a sponsor with an agnostic view
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern Colorado
Posts: 1,167
That sounds great. Your story has already begun. Why don't you whip out a rough draft for us to read right here?
CarolD says that we can post 2 times in here, so it would be nice to see a new entry here. I think you have to have 1 year minimum to post a story here. Hmmm... 5th edition Big Book? Sounds kind of like a "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" exercise.
CarolD says that we can post 2 times in here, so it would be nice to see a new entry here. I think you have to have 1 year minimum to post a story here. Hmmm... 5th edition Big Book? Sounds kind of like a "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" exercise.
Awakening...
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the present
Posts: 1,125
Originally Posted by McGowdog 
That sounds great. Your story has already begun. Why don't you whip out a rough draft for us to read right here?
CarolD says that we can post 2 times in here, so it would be nice to see a new entry here. I think you have to have 1 year minimum to post a story here. Hmmm... 5th edition Big Book? Sounds kind of like a "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" exercise.
CarolD says that we can post 2 times in here, so it would be nice to see a new entry here. I think you have to have 1 year minimum to post a story here. Hmmm... 5th edition Big Book? Sounds kind of like a "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" exercise.
About another year, I'll talk to someone in New York, see what they say.
Awakening...
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the present
Posts: 1,125
I'm on step 4, I will finish it this weekend and do step 5 next week. I'm sponsorless, but I have an AA friend that agreed to hear my inventory.
I know, it's not the best idea to do this solo, but that's my situation. I'm being very careful and honest with myself, and I have to be extra vigilant and careful about my mind getting squirelly. If I ever can find a good sponsor, I can always do the steps over.
I know, it's not the best idea to do this solo, but that's my situation. I'm being very careful and honest with myself, and I have to be extra vigilant and careful about my mind getting squirelly. If I ever can find a good sponsor, I can always do the steps over.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
The Point I am trying to make, and somehow not being clear about is, in AA it is one of the mainsprings of the program that you are allowed to have a God of your own understanding, it's talked about repeatedly in the first 164 pages, it's listed in the steps, it's addressed in We Agnostics and then again in "Working with Others", it's written on the wall in the 12 steps, it's addressed in the appendix, and then again in the Traditions, this is not a subject open to debate or discussion, it's repeated over and over and over "Why don't you try your own concept of God", God as we understand him" blah blah blah
I use Agnostic as "unable to define or put boundaries or perimeters on My God, as BasIam wrote, that's what makes my faith beautiful is my Agnosticism, that's what makes me human, even The Carpenter cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?" last I checked
I LOVE that we have every sort of spirituality known to man in AA, it's what makes us grow, we all use different "vehicles" to discuss spirituality, but all agree that a conscious contact with a God as we understand God is the Goal, it's just we all understand God differently, especially all the different sects of Christianity, but in AA we set all that aside in each of our individual pursuit of that contact using the 12 steps, with The Big Book, The Traditions, EVERYTHING , GUARANTEEING us our "right" to have a God of our OWN understanding.
It needn't be a Christian Deity.
Period.
This just happened to be a thread by a man asking about Agnostic Sponsors
That is also known as hijacking a thread, my point exactly, which is akin to a sex addict going to a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous and going on about his sexcapades, wrong venue, hey, a great story I'm sure in the proper venue, but not appropriate at church or in a meeting, I'd say the say thing to that person if they were disrespectful in a Christian Thread as I am saying here. Respect The House you are in, and this "House" is a man asking about agnostic sponsors.
I actually LOVE having spiritual and philosophical discussions in the appropriate venue, when it's clearly understood we are both allowed to have our own concept of God, such as in AA, Cubile, who posts here goes to Catholic Church, he will post about a particularly interesting sermon, prayer, idea or something he learned in church, and we have GREAT talks on his threads, and I get a LOT out of them, and we learn from each other because we respect each others freedomm of religion, we both use a different vehicle to arrive at the same place, but I don't tell him his Deity needs to have noodly appendages rather then a knocker or he is quite sure to drink and he is doing it wrong, nor does he insist I worship "his" God.
That, to me, is spiritual, not arguing about religion but embracing our differences.
Absolutely, I am only intolerant of intolerance, of people saying others must needs get THEIR concept of God in order to get sober, the point I am trying to make IS about tolerance, not INtolerance, in AA that tolerance is guaranteed, by the actual program I mean, not the fellowship in all cases.
Actually it's not, it was a tool used in a court of LAW (successfully I might add, the religious fundamentalists took a sound drubbing) in order to stop a group of Religious Fundamentalists from teaching their superstitions in the classroom and labeling it "Science" what the Flying Spaghetti Monster was for was to prove there was as much Scientific Merit in the Church of The Flying Spaghetti monster as there was in the superstitions being pushed by these people who were trying to turn time back 1000 years, to have The Earth be flat again, and be the center of the Universe again where the sun and heavens revolved around the earth and other superstitious nonsense, that is if you believe in any of the scientic advances made by mankind in the last 1000 years, and I notice that people who don't believe in evolution and science frequently have no problem going to the Doctor for example and using drugs and antibiotics specifically created by "evolving" them.
I am sorry you feel that teaching superstition in school is "childish" to get upset about, but Freedom of Religion was actually one of the main reasons this country was founded and formed, and one the binding and important tenets of The ole US of A, it's a freedom I take INCREDIBLY seriously in case you haven't noticed, and teaching religious superstition in school and calling it science is an encroachment of that freedom.
Men have gone to War for thousands of years to protect the right to worship as they see fit, were they childish too? Is The constitution Childish when it guarantees freedom of religion?
We have a different defintion of childish, the fact they used humor rather then violence in order to get their point across is also important to me, as violence is always the last refuge of the incompetent, but seems common enough in how religious fundamentalists communicate with each other. Score one for the Atheists I say, that we use humor and a court of Law to protect our rights rather then torture and war like religious fundamentalists of ALL kinds use.
So to me The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster represents freedom from Religious oppression and freedom from Religious zealots once again, imposing their superstitious nonsense on me and my children and teaching it in schools and calling superstitions science.
So the people who are insulted by this have only themselves to blame, since by their actions, ie trying to teach their superstitions in Schools and calling it "science", they "created" The Church of The Flying Spaghetthi Monster, had they left religion in church where it belonged my church would never have sprung into being, so I resent you calling it "childish"
It's freedom from Religious oppression and ignorance
Actually standing up for myself and others is EXACTLY a "good way to recover in AA", the number of Agnostics and Atheists I know that are afraid to speak up here and in meetings is without number, whenever I step up for agnostics etc I am bombarded by "Thank You" tells.
If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything as they say, especially something so important as religious freedom in AA
Anybody who is insulted by me not believing in their diety deserves to have a resentment, not only that, I think it's a good lesson from their "God" about tolerance. I am not insulted by anyone else's beliefs, so if they are insulted by mine, the more they suffer, perhaps the faster they will learn, pain is the touchstone of all spiritual growth remember.
I mean that statement basically says everything I have been trying to say all along "It's insulting if you don't believe in a Christian God to Christians", the sheer vast arrogance and intolerance of that statement leaves me speechless
You are ABSOLUTELY "allowed" to talk about your higher power in the correct venue, I don't think it's incredibly appropriate to talk about a "Christain Deity" in a thread by a man searching for answers from agnostics however, not only is it thread hijacking, it's disrespectful IMO, what we are talking about is how I made a conscious contact with God, NOT how YOU should make a coscious contact with God, a subtle difference but crucial, I agree with EVERYBODIES path and their right to be on it, I support it, I LOVE my Christian Brothers and Sisters in AA, we talk for HOURS about God, but they don't tell me to get THEIR God or get out, like I frequently hear happens in meetings.
I am PRO tolerance, not intolerance
Yes, it probably is, being "The Left Coast" is an insulting term used by people who don't live here, you ask for tolerance then insult my entire area, I am PROUD to be from the West Coast, San Francisco especially, with "San Francisco Values", I grew up and went to school with Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Filipino, African American, African, Irish, Italian, Indian immigrants and first generation thereof including Native Americans, and the one thing I learned was tolerance, I am also proud to have as friends Gay men, Lesbian Women, and men and women of every ethnic background, for our tolernace we are derided, that's fine, I wear my "left coast" banner proudly.
So yes, on the "Left Coast" we respect each others diversity, and we don't tolerate Bigotry, Homophobia, Sexism, Racism, nor allow infringements on our freedom of Religion.
I am not Gay, but right now I'd fly a Rainbow banner held up by hands of every color and say "This is us, and we are proud of who we are"
Agreed
I am not saying they shouldn't experiences and beliefs, I am saying they shouldn't try to impose those views on others, such as "Get God or Get Out" and saying you better turn to "The Father of Light" in all things or you are sick, stupid and bad.
I agree with this.
The point is, I am arguing FOR tolerance, not intolerance, I am saying we should ALL be allowed to have our own concept of God, as is guaranteed repeatedly in The Program of AA.
I use Agnostic as "unable to define or put boundaries or perimeters on My God, as BasIam wrote, that's what makes my faith beautiful is my Agnosticism, that's what makes me human, even The Carpenter cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?" last I checked
I LOVE that we have every sort of spirituality known to man in AA, it's what makes us grow, we all use different "vehicles" to discuss spirituality, but all agree that a conscious contact with a God as we understand God is the Goal, it's just we all understand God differently, especially all the different sects of Christianity, but in AA we set all that aside in each of our individual pursuit of that contact using the 12 steps, with The Big Book, The Traditions, EVERYTHING , GUARANTEEING us our "right" to have a God of our OWN understanding.
It needn't be a Christian Deity.
Period.
This just happened to be a thread by a man asking about Agnostic Sponsors
Originally Posted by Ribeye
No. Other people (this is a public forum) had questions and started a side discussion.
Originally Posted by Ribeye
Just because you don't feel comfortable with people talking about their conception of a higher power, doesn't mean they're going to stop.
That, to me, is spiritual, not arguing about religion but embracing our differences.
Originally Posted by Ribeye
A bit of tolerance is in order here.
Originally Posted by Ribeye
The flying spaghetti monster is just a form of insult used by atheists to make a childish point.
I am sorry you feel that teaching superstition in school is "childish" to get upset about, but Freedom of Religion was actually one of the main reasons this country was founded and formed, and one the binding and important tenets of The ole US of A, it's a freedom I take INCREDIBLY seriously in case you haven't noticed, and teaching religious superstition in school and calling it science is an encroachment of that freedom.
Men have gone to War for thousands of years to protect the right to worship as they see fit, were they childish too? Is The constitution Childish when it guarantees freedom of religion?
We have a different defintion of childish, the fact they used humor rather then violence in order to get their point across is also important to me, as violence is always the last refuge of the incompetent, but seems common enough in how religious fundamentalists communicate with each other. Score one for the Atheists I say, that we use humor and a court of Law to protect our rights rather then torture and war like religious fundamentalists of ALL kinds use.
So to me The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster represents freedom from Religious oppression and freedom from Religious zealots once again, imposing their superstitious nonsense on me and my children and teaching it in schools and calling superstitions science.
So the people who are insulted by this have only themselves to blame, since by their actions, ie trying to teach their superstitions in Schools and calling it "science", they "created" The Church of The Flying Spaghetthi Monster, had they left religion in church where it belonged my church would never have sprung into being, so I resent you calling it "childish"
It's freedom from Religious oppression and ignorance
Originally Posted by Ribeye
When you bring up phrases like that you are not trying to be helpful to other atheist/agnostics, You are trying to set yourself apart. You have every right to do that but it's not really a good way to recover in AA.
If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything as they say, especially something so important as religious freedom in AA
Originally Posted by Ribeye
No believer in God has criticized you for being atheist/agnostic but you managed to insult any Christian here by saying Your God is not a Christian.
I mean that statement basically says everything I have been trying to say all along "It's insulting if you don't believe in a Christian God to Christians", the sheer vast arrogance and intolerance of that statement leaves me speechless
Originally Posted by Ribeye
If you notice no one took offense because you were expressing 'your' concept of God. But now you tell us that we have no right to express 'our' understanding. That's not how AA works around here.
I am PRO tolerance, not intolerance
Originally Posted by Ribeye
Maybe the left coast is different ?
So yes, on the "Left Coast" we respect each others diversity, and we don't tolerate Bigotry, Homophobia, Sexism, Racism, nor allow infringements on our freedom of Religion.
I am not Gay, but right now I'd fly a Rainbow banner held up by hands of every color and say "This is us, and we are proud of who we are"
Originally Posted by Ribeye
Yes, we can all choose our own conception of God/Higher power and yes the OP's sponsor was acting outside of his bounds. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
Originally Posted by Ribeye
But to go so far as to say people shouldn't express their own experiences and beliefs in an AA meeting is setting yourself up for resentment and isolation.
Originally Posted by Ribeye
There's no difference between a Christian sponsor who won't allow an atheist to practice his own spiritual beliefs and an atheist who tries to stop a Christian. Both are equally wrong and go against AA tradition. Both are being intolerant and not putting principles before personalities. Part of the AA experience is listening to people who you don't agree with. That includes matters of personal faith (or no faith).
The point is, I am arguing FOR tolerance, not intolerance, I am saying we should ALL be allowed to have our own concept of God, as is guaranteed repeatedly in The Program of AA.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 112
No offense Ago, but why don't you get down off your high horse before you fall and hurt yourself. 
Honestly, the OP never said his sponsor was trying to force him to believe in a Christian God. In fact you were the one who brought the word 'Christian' into the thread.
You maybe need to put Christ on your fourth step ?
Honestly, the OP never said his sponsor was trying to force him to believe in a Christian God. In fact you were the one who brought the word 'Christian' into the thread.
You maybe need to put Christ on your fourth step ?
Originally Posted by Ago
The Point I am trying to make, and somehow not being clear about is, in AA it is one of the mainsprings of the program that you are allowed to have a God of your own understanding, it's talked about repeatedly in the first 164 pages, it's listed in the steps, it's addressed in We Agnostics and then again in "Working with Others", it's written on the wall in the 12 steps, it's addressed in the appendix, and then again in the Traditions, this is not a subject open to debate or discussion, it's repeated over and over and over "Why don't you try your own concept of God", God as we understand him" blah blah blah
I use Agnostic as "unable to define or put boundaries or perimeters on My God, as BasIam wrote, that's what makes my faith beautiful is my Agnosticism, that's what makes me human, even The Carpenter cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?" last I checked
I LOVE that we have every sort of spirituality known to man in AA, it's what makes us grow, we all use different "vehicles" to discuss spirituality, but all agree that a conscious contact with a God as we understand God is the Goal, it's just we all understand God differently, especially all the different sects of Christianity, but in AA we set all that aside in each of our individual pursuit of that contact using the 12 steps, with The Big Book, The Traditions, EVERYTHING , GUARANTEEING us our "right" to have a God of our OWN understanding.
It needn't be a Christian Deity.
Period.
This just happened to be a thread by a man asking about Agnostic Sponsors
That is also known as hijacking a thread, my point exactly, which is akin to a sex addict going to a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous and going on about his sexcapades, wrong venue, hey, a great story I'm sure in the proper venue, but not appropriate at church or in a meeting, I'd say the say thing to that person if they were disrespectful in a Christian Thread as I am saying here. Respect The House you are in, and this "House" is a man asking about agnostic sponsors.
I actually LOVE having spiritual and philosophical discussions in the appropriate venue, when it's clearly understood we are both allowed to have our own concept of God, such as in AA, Cubile, who posts here goes to Catholic Church, he will post about a particularly interesting sermon, prayer, idea or something he learned in church, and we have GREAT talks on his threads, and I get a LOT out of them, and we learn from each other because we respect each others freedomm of religion, we both use a different vehicle to arrive at the same place, but I don't tell him his Deity needs to have noodly appendages rather then a knocker or he is quite sure to drink and he is doing it wrong, nor does he insist I worship "his" God.
That, to me, is spiritual, not arguing about religion but embracing our differences.
Absolutely, I am only intolerant of intolerance, of people saying others must needs get THEIR concept of God in order to get sober, the point I am trying to make IS about tolerance, not INtolerance, in AA that tolerance is guaranteed, by the actual program I mean, not the fellowship in all cases.
Actually it's not, it was a tool used in a court of LAW (successfully I might add, the religious fundamentalists took a sound drubbing) in order to stop a group of Religious Fundamentalists from teaching their superstitions in the classroom and labeling it "Science" what the Flying Spaghetti Monster was for was to prove there was as much Scientific Merit in the Church of The Flying Spaghetti monster as there was in the superstitions being pushed by these people who were trying to turn time back 1000 years, to have The Earth be flat again, and be the center of the Universe again where the sun and heavens revolved around the earth and other superstitious nonsense, that is if you believe in any of the scientic advances made by mankind in the last 1000 years, and I notice that people who don't believe in evolution and science frequently have no problem going to the Doctor for example and using drugs and antibiotics specifically created by "evolving" them.
I am sorry you feel that teaching superstition in school is "childish" to get upset about, but Freedom of Religion was actually one of the main reasons this country was founded and formed, and one the binding and important tenets of The ole US of A, it's a freedom I take INCREDIBLY seriously in case you haven't noticed, and teaching religious superstition in school and calling it science is an encroachment of that freedom.
Men have gone to War for thousands of years to protect the right to worship as they see fit, were they childish too? Is The constitution Childish when it guarantees freedom of religion?
We have a different defintion of childish, the fact they used humor rather then violence in order to get their point across is also important to me, as violence is always the last refuge of the incompetent, but seems common enough in how religious fundamentalists communicate with each other. Score one for the Atheists I say, that we use humor and a court of Law to protect our rights rather then torture and war like religious fundamentalists of ALL kinds use.
So to me The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster represents freedom from Religious oppression and freedom from Religious zealots once again, imposing their superstitious nonsense on me and my children and teaching it in schools and calling superstitions science.
So the people who are insulted by this have only themselves to blame, since by their actions, ie trying to teach their superstitions in Schools and calling it "science", they "created" The Church of The Flying Spaghetthi Monster, had they left religion in church where it belonged my church would never have sprung into being, so I resent you calling it "childish"
It's freedom from Religious oppression and ignorance
Actually standing up for myself and others is EXACTLY a "good way to recover in AA", the number of Agnostics and Atheists I know that are afraid to speak up here and in meetings is without number, whenever I step up for agnostics etc I am bombarded by "Thank You" tells.
If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything as they say, especially something so important as religious freedom in AA
Anybody who is insulted by me not believing in their diety deserves to have a resentment, not only that, I think it's a good lesson from their "God" about tolerance. I am not insulted by anyone else's beliefs, so if they are insulted by mine, the more they suffer, perhaps the faster they will learn, pain is the touchstone of all spiritual growth remember.
I mean that statement basically says everything I have been trying to say all along "It's insulting if you don't believe in a Christian God to Christians", the sheer vast arrogance and intolerance of that statement leaves me speechless
You are ABSOLUTELY "allowed" to talk about your higher power in the correct venue, I don't think it's incredibly appropriate to talk about a "Christain Deity" in a thread by a man searching for answers from agnostics however, not only is it thread hijacking, it's disrespectful IMO, what we are talking about is how I made a conscious contact with God, NOT how YOU should make a coscious contact with God, a subtle difference but crucial, I agree with EVERYBODIES path and their right to be on it, I support it, I LOVE my Christian Brothers and Sisters in AA, we talk for HOURS about God, but they don't tell me to get THEIR God or get out, like I frequently hear happens in meetings.
I am PRO tolerance, not intolerance
Yes, it probably is, being "The Left Coast" is an insulting term used by people who don't live here, you ask for tolerance then insult my entire area, I am PROUD to be from the West Coast, San Francisco especially, with "San Francisco Values", I grew up and went to school with Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Filipino, African American, African, Irish, Italian, Indian immigrants and first generation thereof including Native Americans, and the one thing I learned was tolerance, I am also proud to have as friends Gay men, Lesbian Women, and men and women of every ethnic background, for our tolernace we are derided, that's fine, I wear my "left coast" banner proudly.
So yes, on the "Left Coast" we respect each others diversity, and we don't tolerate Bigotry, Homophobia, Sexism, Racism, nor allow infringements on our freedom of Religion.
I am not Gay, but right now I'd fly a Rainbow banner held up by hands of every color and say "This is us, and we are proud of who we are"
Agreed
I am not saying they shouldn't experiences and beliefs, I am saying they shouldn't try to impose those views on others, such as "Get God or Get Out" and saying you better turn to "The Father of Light" in all things or you are sick, stupid and bad.
I agree with this.
The point is, I am arguing FOR tolerance, not intolerance, I am saying we should ALL be allowed to have our own concept of God, as is guaranteed repeatedly in The Program of AA.
I use Agnostic as "unable to define or put boundaries or perimeters on My God, as BasIam wrote, that's what makes my faith beautiful is my Agnosticism, that's what makes me human, even The Carpenter cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?" last I checked
I LOVE that we have every sort of spirituality known to man in AA, it's what makes us grow, we all use different "vehicles" to discuss spirituality, but all agree that a conscious contact with a God as we understand God is the Goal, it's just we all understand God differently, especially all the different sects of Christianity, but in AA we set all that aside in each of our individual pursuit of that contact using the 12 steps, with The Big Book, The Traditions, EVERYTHING , GUARANTEEING us our "right" to have a God of our OWN understanding.
It needn't be a Christian Deity.
Period.
This just happened to be a thread by a man asking about Agnostic Sponsors
That is also known as hijacking a thread, my point exactly, which is akin to a sex addict going to a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous and going on about his sexcapades, wrong venue, hey, a great story I'm sure in the proper venue, but not appropriate at church or in a meeting, I'd say the say thing to that person if they were disrespectful in a Christian Thread as I am saying here. Respect The House you are in, and this "House" is a man asking about agnostic sponsors.
I actually LOVE having spiritual and philosophical discussions in the appropriate venue, when it's clearly understood we are both allowed to have our own concept of God, such as in AA, Cubile, who posts here goes to Catholic Church, he will post about a particularly interesting sermon, prayer, idea or something he learned in church, and we have GREAT talks on his threads, and I get a LOT out of them, and we learn from each other because we respect each others freedomm of religion, we both use a different vehicle to arrive at the same place, but I don't tell him his Deity needs to have noodly appendages rather then a knocker or he is quite sure to drink and he is doing it wrong, nor does he insist I worship "his" God.
That, to me, is spiritual, not arguing about religion but embracing our differences.
Absolutely, I am only intolerant of intolerance, of people saying others must needs get THEIR concept of God in order to get sober, the point I am trying to make IS about tolerance, not INtolerance, in AA that tolerance is guaranteed, by the actual program I mean, not the fellowship in all cases.
Actually it's not, it was a tool used in a court of LAW (successfully I might add, the religious fundamentalists took a sound drubbing) in order to stop a group of Religious Fundamentalists from teaching their superstitions in the classroom and labeling it "Science" what the Flying Spaghetti Monster was for was to prove there was as much Scientific Merit in the Church of The Flying Spaghetti monster as there was in the superstitions being pushed by these people who were trying to turn time back 1000 years, to have The Earth be flat again, and be the center of the Universe again where the sun and heavens revolved around the earth and other superstitious nonsense, that is if you believe in any of the scientic advances made by mankind in the last 1000 years, and I notice that people who don't believe in evolution and science frequently have no problem going to the Doctor for example and using drugs and antibiotics specifically created by "evolving" them.
I am sorry you feel that teaching superstition in school is "childish" to get upset about, but Freedom of Religion was actually one of the main reasons this country was founded and formed, and one the binding and important tenets of The ole US of A, it's a freedom I take INCREDIBLY seriously in case you haven't noticed, and teaching religious superstition in school and calling it science is an encroachment of that freedom.
Men have gone to War for thousands of years to protect the right to worship as they see fit, were they childish too? Is The constitution Childish when it guarantees freedom of religion?
We have a different defintion of childish, the fact they used humor rather then violence in order to get their point across is also important to me, as violence is always the last refuge of the incompetent, but seems common enough in how religious fundamentalists communicate with each other. Score one for the Atheists I say, that we use humor and a court of Law to protect our rights rather then torture and war like religious fundamentalists of ALL kinds use.
So to me The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster represents freedom from Religious oppression and freedom from Religious zealots once again, imposing their superstitious nonsense on me and my children and teaching it in schools and calling superstitions science.
So the people who are insulted by this have only themselves to blame, since by their actions, ie trying to teach their superstitions in Schools and calling it "science", they "created" The Church of The Flying Spaghetthi Monster, had they left religion in church where it belonged my church would never have sprung into being, so I resent you calling it "childish"
It's freedom from Religious oppression and ignorance
Actually standing up for myself and others is EXACTLY a "good way to recover in AA", the number of Agnostics and Atheists I know that are afraid to speak up here and in meetings is without number, whenever I step up for agnostics etc I am bombarded by "Thank You" tells.
If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything as they say, especially something so important as religious freedom in AA
Anybody who is insulted by me not believing in their diety deserves to have a resentment, not only that, I think it's a good lesson from their "God" about tolerance. I am not insulted by anyone else's beliefs, so if they are insulted by mine, the more they suffer, perhaps the faster they will learn, pain is the touchstone of all spiritual growth remember.
I mean that statement basically says everything I have been trying to say all along "It's insulting if you don't believe in a Christian God to Christians", the sheer vast arrogance and intolerance of that statement leaves me speechless
You are ABSOLUTELY "allowed" to talk about your higher power in the correct venue, I don't think it's incredibly appropriate to talk about a "Christain Deity" in a thread by a man searching for answers from agnostics however, not only is it thread hijacking, it's disrespectful IMO, what we are talking about is how I made a conscious contact with God, NOT how YOU should make a coscious contact with God, a subtle difference but crucial, I agree with EVERYBODIES path and their right to be on it, I support it, I LOVE my Christian Brothers and Sisters in AA, we talk for HOURS about God, but they don't tell me to get THEIR God or get out, like I frequently hear happens in meetings.
I am PRO tolerance, not intolerance
Yes, it probably is, being "The Left Coast" is an insulting term used by people who don't live here, you ask for tolerance then insult my entire area, I am PROUD to be from the West Coast, San Francisco especially, with "San Francisco Values", I grew up and went to school with Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Filipino, African American, African, Irish, Italian, Indian immigrants and first generation thereof including Native Americans, and the one thing I learned was tolerance, I am also proud to have as friends Gay men, Lesbian Women, and men and women of every ethnic background, for our tolernace we are derided, that's fine, I wear my "left coast" banner proudly.
So yes, on the "Left Coast" we respect each others diversity, and we don't tolerate Bigotry, Homophobia, Sexism, Racism, nor allow infringements on our freedom of Religion.
I am not Gay, but right now I'd fly a Rainbow banner held up by hands of every color and say "This is us, and we are proud of who we are"
Agreed
I am not saying they shouldn't experiences and beliefs, I am saying they shouldn't try to impose those views on others, such as "Get God or Get Out" and saying you better turn to "The Father of Light" in all things or you are sick, stupid and bad.
I agree with this.
The point is, I am arguing FOR tolerance, not intolerance, I am saying we should ALL be allowed to have our own concept of God, as is guaranteed repeatedly in The Program of AA.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: far left of center
Posts: 237
I believe it is definitely relevant to the OP.
We should never tell anyone what to do. On the other hand we should share our personal experiences and understandings gained from them.
Part of that is understanding what "agnostic" means, how doubt fits in with faith and the role of a sponsor.
I do believe the biggest misconception, and possibly most damaging, we give the new comer is that they must find god in order to recover.
That is a lie. Many newcomers can see the lie and as a result cross AA of the list of possibilities when it comes to recovery paths.
Hopefully, through this thread, the OP will be encouraged to investigate what it really means to be "agnostic", determine for himself if the word does in fact apply, consider (with an open mind) what his current mentor is attempting to impart to him, and then come to a sound conclusion as to what course of action he's should take.
I believe no one has the right to describe god for another, nor dictate how to acknowledge/seek/worship god. That is a personal decision for each of us to make.
I do "know" what the word agnostic means. It has a specific meaning that has nothing to do with theism or athiesm.
I will be agnostic until the day I die.
Inspite of everything I don't know, I choose to believe. It is arrogant to think I am gnostic. To think I know is the equivalent of think my knowledge, my rationale, is the end all be all.
In the end, I just don't know, but I believe. I say the "set aside prayer" and try to act on faith.
(Stereosteveo.... do you say the set aside prayer??? Isn't that the ultimate admission of agnosticsm? "Please enable me to set aside the things I think I know..." )
We should never tell anyone what to do. On the other hand we should share our personal experiences and understandings gained from them.
Part of that is understanding what "agnostic" means, how doubt fits in with faith and the role of a sponsor.
I do believe the biggest misconception, and possibly most damaging, we give the new comer is that they must find god in order to recover.
That is a lie. Many newcomers can see the lie and as a result cross AA of the list of possibilities when it comes to recovery paths.
Hopefully, through this thread, the OP will be encouraged to investigate what it really means to be "agnostic", determine for himself if the word does in fact apply, consider (with an open mind) what his current mentor is attempting to impart to him, and then come to a sound conclusion as to what course of action he's should take.
I believe no one has the right to describe god for another, nor dictate how to acknowledge/seek/worship god. That is a personal decision for each of us to make.
I do "know" what the word agnostic means. It has a specific meaning that has nothing to do with theism or athiesm.
I will be agnostic until the day I die.
Inspite of everything I don't know, I choose to believe. It is arrogant to think I am gnostic. To think I know is the equivalent of think my knowledge, my rationale, is the end all be all.
In the end, I just don't know, but I believe. I say the "set aside prayer" and try to act on faith.
(Stereosteveo.... do you say the set aside prayer??? Isn't that the ultimate admission of agnosticsm? "Please enable me to set aside the things I think I know..." )
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 112
We all haver our beliefs and likes and dislikes and 'issue's.
We even all have our own definitions of spiritual terms.
And it's all good. In AA we can have a discussion like this, with a little good natured back and forth but in the end we all accept the right of the next guy to believe as he sees fit. IMHO that's how it should be.
I think this has been a good thread. I hope the op agrees.......
We even all have our own definitions of spiritual terms.
And it's all good. In AA we can have a discussion like this, with a little good natured back and forth but in the end we all accept the right of the next guy to believe as he sees fit. IMHO that's how it should be.
I think this has been a good thread. I hope the op agrees.......
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern Colorado
Posts: 1,167
Originally Posted by basIam
That is a lie. Many newcomers can see the lie and as a result cross AA of the list of possibilities when it comes to recovery paths.
I've been a "newcomer" a few different times and I never recall anybody "shoving A.A. down my throat", for one thing... and I don't mean to imply that that's part of the topic here, but relavant to my point...
nor did I ever think of crossing A.A. off my list. All I wanted to do is never drink booze ever ever again and see what happens. See if elimination of the booze might have helped me with my going out and being a tornado to myself and others. I had a clue that booze... was part of the problem. But I also had a clue... that it was me that had the problem.
I never recall having the luxury to argue "Gods" or "not Gods" or whether or not A.A. was the correct recovery program for me. I was always, as a newcomer who had recently come down from being on the sauce, been willing to just come in and say, "Here I am. What do I have to do?"
If I would have known that A.A. was going to be about arguing politics and religion, I could have got that at home with a well stocked bar. If you're here and sober, you don't have much to 8!tch about. Thank goodness that recovery is NOT about politics and religion, huh?
Happy New Year!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
I hear people say that the spiritual journey of the steps led them to accept Jesus. That doesn't bother me when I hear that in a meeting. Makes more sense to me than a friggin' light bulb or a doorknob.
One of my roommates came into AA a Christian and is now a Buddhist.
When I began to awaken, I became spiritually curious. I read books, sought out teachers, went to retreats, and checked out various churches. I tried fitting into a fundamentalist, Pentecostal style church and found out that isn't where I belong, mainly because I had to part ways with them theologically.
But while I was going to that church I met a man who, judging by his story had been a hopeless alcoholic. He had tried AA and it didn't suit him. He found his surrender in that church and had been sober a long time. I asked him what he did to stay spiritually active. He said "Prayer and service." Sound familiar?
On a different note, why apologize for God in AA?
One of my roommates came into AA a Christian and is now a Buddhist.
When I began to awaken, I became spiritually curious. I read books, sought out teachers, went to retreats, and checked out various churches. I tried fitting into a fundamentalist, Pentecostal style church and found out that isn't where I belong, mainly because I had to part ways with them theologically.
But while I was going to that church I met a man who, judging by his story had been a hopeless alcoholic. He had tried AA and it didn't suit him. He found his surrender in that church and had been sober a long time. I asked him what he did to stay spiritually active. He said "Prayer and service." Sound familiar?
On a different note, why apologize for God in AA?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 128
Originally Posted by basIam
I do believe the biggest misconception, and possibly most damaging, we give the new comer is that they must find god in order to recover. That is a lie.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need
to consider another's conception of God. Our own
conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to
make the approach and to effect a contact with Him.
As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a
Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying
the totality of things, we began to be possessed
of a new sense of power and direction, provided we
took other simple steps. We found that God does not
make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us,
the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive;
never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek.
to consider another's conception of God. Our own
conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to
make the approach and to effect a contact with Him.
As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a
Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying
the totality of things, we began to be possessed
of a new sense of power and direction, provided we
took other simple steps. We found that God does not
make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us,
the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive;
never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek.
This little paragraph opens the door up wide enough for anyone interested in seeking a spiritual way of life. Many, like myself who do not believe in the Divinity of the Jewish Carpenter or any other great men who walked the earth have found a path to contact our conception of God. I do not believe in an entity that wears a robe and lives in the clouds. I do believe in the purity of truth. I do believe that a power greater than me caused the sun to rise and the snow to fall. I do believe that the universe makes sense. And I do believe that all religions of the world were designed to help us connect with that power, regardless of the human frailties of these faiths, they have an underlying purpose, I do not need to believe their dogma to develop a genuine appreciation for what they have brought the world. I have yet to meet or hear of a great Athiest humanitarian.
The spiritual ideas behind the Big Book are not hard to get behind.
We are not the greatest power in the world ( we can do what I cannot)
We must clean up the wreckage of our past
We must serve our fellows
I have met athiests in AA who have met these characteristics, but many that I have known use the "G" word as an excuse. Of course finding excuses in AA is not limited to our agnostics.
Nonexistent Willpower
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 439
Originally Posted by basIam
(Stereosteveo.... do you say the set aside prayer??? Isn't that the ultimate admission of agnosticsm? "Please enable me to set aside the things I think I know..." )
By the same token if you asked me exactly who he is and where he lives I don't know if I could tell you. But it's definately a "something that exists somewhere".
Originally Posted by basIam
Part of that is understanding what "agnostic" means,"
Originally Posted by basIam
Many newcomers can see the (find god in order to recover) lie and as a result cross AA of the list of possibilities when it comes to recovery paths."
So I don't know. Apparently we didn't give enough credit to "God" in that meeting..
On that note I like the saying that also goes along with my experience: "If the God talk scares you out of here, that's OK. The alcohol will scare you right back in."
At any rate bro, like I told Ago; I greatly respect you for making efforts in upholding the traditions and ensuring the new guy can believe anything he wants. It takes all kinds. And I can't say I haven't learned anything in this thought provoking thread. Another memmber sent me the "Freethinkers" version of the steps. I have somewhat mixed feelings about them, but bottom line I think if I had seen the steps put this way I would have obtained a quicker understanding of how important it is to just work them, and what this thing is really about. That on my own I would never recover.
I think McGowdog sums it up pretty well:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
I never recall having the luxury to argue "Gods" or "not Gods" or whether or not A.A. was the correct recovery program for me. I was always, as a newcomer who had recently come down from being on the sauce, been willing to just come in and say, "Here I am. What do I have to do?"
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 127
Heres a question a sponsor I had couldnt answer, Why does "power greater than ourselves " in step 2 change to God in step 3.
Originally Posted by jaitch
Ive been listening to an AA talk I downloaded by Mickey B from London England. He says he has a tape where Bill W says he acknowledges and defines the Power in Steps 1 and 2 and names it in step 3.
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