Finding a sponsor with an agnostic view
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
What's that Joseph Campbell qoute?
Priest: "You don't believe in a personal god?"
Campbell: "No, Father"
Priest: "Well, I suppose there is no way to prove by logic the existence of a personal god"
Campbell: "If there were, Father. What then would be the value of faith?"
There is beauty and peace to be found in "not knowing"...at minimum, it leaves me open for experience. It is not to say that I do not have faith, or feel a connection. There is more to the relationship than knowledge or understanding of it.
I think I was just getting into ammends when I phoned my sponsor and said: "I AM agnostic!" Something clicked in me that even though I feel this power, it is much deeper than words could describe. The moment I box God up into a definition, I am fairly certain I am in for a big suprise.
I have to agree, there is a lot in "not knowing"..perhaps it helps sweep away prejudice. Enables me to think honestly. Encourages me to search diligently within myself...for within myself is where this power is to be found.
The chapter is "We Agnostics"..not "you agnostics" or "to those who are agnostic" or "Let us make a case for faith"....
I am agnostic, with a deep belief in the power of God.
--bb references taken from 1st ed.
Priest: "You don't believe in a personal god?"
Campbell: "No, Father"
Priest: "Well, I suppose there is no way to prove by logic the existence of a personal god"
Campbell: "If there were, Father. What then would be the value of faith?"
There is beauty and peace to be found in "not knowing"...at minimum, it leaves me open for experience. It is not to say that I do not have faith, or feel a connection. There is more to the relationship than knowledge or understanding of it.
I think I was just getting into ammends when I phoned my sponsor and said: "I AM agnostic!" Something clicked in me that even though I feel this power, it is much deeper than words could describe. The moment I box God up into a definition, I am fairly certain I am in for a big suprise.
I have to agree, there is a lot in "not knowing"..perhaps it helps sweep away prejudice. Enables me to think honestly. Encourages me to search diligently within myself...for within myself is where this power is to be found.
The chapter is "We Agnostics"..not "you agnostics" or "to those who are agnostic" or "Let us make a case for faith"....
I am agnostic, with a deep belief in the power of God.
--bb references taken from 1st ed.
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Originally Posted by Stereosteveo 
When I start labeling people despite their personal beliefs please refer to me from then on as Hitler, or maybe Jim Jones.
No one is labeling you.
I am saying the word "Agnostic" has specific meaning despite what you believe the word to mean.
Refering to "red" as "blue" does not shorten its wavelength.
Refering to a "dog" as a "cat" does not change its genus.
Words have specific, immutable, meanings.
Words are used to convey ideas.
Agnostic conveys the idea that human knowledge is limited to material phenomena.
It DOES NOT convey the idea that spiritual phenomena is outside human experience. . . despite what you believe the word to mean!
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Posts: 237
Originally Posted by sugErspun
What's that Joseph Campbell qoute?
Priest: "You don't believe in a personal god?"
Campbell: "No, Father"
Priest: "Well, I suppose there is no way to prove by logic the existence of a personal god"
Campbell: "If there were, Father. What then would be the value of faith?"
There is beauty and peace to be found in "not knowing"...at minimum, it leaves me open for experience. It is not to say that I do not have faith, or feel a connection. There is more to the relationship than knowledge or understanding of it.
I think I was just getting into ammends when I phoned my sponsor and said: "I AM agnostic!" Something clicked in me that even though I feel this power, it is much deeper than words could describe. The moment I box God up into a definition, I am fairly certain I am in for a big suprise.
I have to agree, there is a lot in "not knowing"..perhaps it helps sweep away prejudice. Enables me to think honestly. Encourages me to search diligently within myself...for within myself is where this power is to be found.
The chapter is "We Agnostics"..not "you agnostics" or "to those who are agnostic" or "Let us make a case for faith"....
I am agnostic, with a deep belief in the power of God.
Priest: "You don't believe in a personal god?"
Campbell: "No, Father"
Priest: "Well, I suppose there is no way to prove by logic the existence of a personal god"
Campbell: "If there were, Father. What then would be the value of faith?"
There is beauty and peace to be found in "not knowing"...at minimum, it leaves me open for experience. It is not to say that I do not have faith, or feel a connection. There is more to the relationship than knowledge or understanding of it.
I think I was just getting into ammends when I phoned my sponsor and said: "I AM agnostic!" Something clicked in me that even though I feel this power, it is much deeper than words could describe. The moment I box God up into a definition, I am fairly certain I am in for a big suprise.
I have to agree, there is a lot in "not knowing"..perhaps it helps sweep away prejudice. Enables me to think honestly. Encourages me to search diligently within myself...for within myself is where this power is to be found.
The chapter is "We Agnostics"..not "you agnostics" or "to those who are agnostic" or "Let us make a case for faith"....
I am agnostic, with a deep belief in the power of God.
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Originally Posted by basIam
No, I am saying that I have faith that if I do God's work, he will take care of me.
If I could prove God, it wouldn't be God. And it wouldn't be faith.
Its a simple yes or no question: Do you comprehend God's ways?
If "no", by definition you are agnostic, despite what you believe the word to mean.
If I could prove God, it wouldn't be God. And it wouldn't be faith.
Its a simple yes or no question: Do you comprehend God's ways?
If "no", by definition you are agnostic, despite what you believe the word to mean.
If you could prove God, it (He) wouldn't be God ?
That's not logical.
And to say you are (and we are also) agnostic if we can't know the full nature of God is a peculiar definition of agnostic. Especially in a debate like this. 3/4 of AA would probably fall into that category but saying the fullness of God is unknowable doesn't make you an agnostic in my book. You would have to say that the very question of 'is there a God' is unanswerable. If you have faith then you already think there is a God. You just don't know the details of His nature. The 'question' is already anwered to a person with faith. IMHO
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Originally Posted by Ago
Where does "why don't you choose your own concept of God" and "God as we understand Him" fit in then?
... that still doesn't mean I can define or put limitations on the God of my understanding, I DO know however that my higher power isn't Christian in any way shape or form, and that's the beauty of The Program, is we are ABSOLUTELY allowed to have a "God of our own understanding", I say the word "God" and you plug in YOUR God, and you say the word "God" and I plug in my value, and we agree harmoniously, you introduce theology and religion to AA you and I have a problem, as do you and the traditions.
Denigrating people who have a different understanding of God has NO place in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, nor does imposing YOUR God on others nor does saying get my God or you won't get sober....
Now gimme a hug
... that still doesn't mean I can define or put limitations on the God of my understanding, I DO know however that my higher power isn't Christian in any way shape or form, and that's the beauty of The Program, is we are ABSOLUTELY allowed to have a "God of our own understanding", I say the word "God" and you plug in YOUR God, and you say the word "God" and I plug in my value, and we agree harmoniously, you introduce theology and religion to AA you and I have a problem, as do you and the traditions.
Denigrating people who have a different understanding of God has NO place in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, nor does imposing YOUR God on others nor does saying get my God or you won't get sober....
Now gimme a hug
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Posts: 237
Originally Posted by Ribeye
WTF ????
If you could prove God, it (He) wouldn't be God ?
That's not logical.
And to say you are (and we are also) agnostic if we can't know the full nature of God is a peculiar definition of agnostic. Especially in a debate like this. 3/4 of AA would probably fall into that category but saying the fullness of God is unknowable doesn't make you an agnostic in my book.
If you could prove God, it (He) wouldn't be God ?
That's not logical.
And to say you are (and we are also) agnostic if we can't know the full nature of God is a peculiar definition of agnostic. Especially in a debate like this. 3/4 of AA would probably fall into that category but saying the fullness of God is unknowable doesn't make you an agnostic in my book.
Once I know something, I no longer am capable of doubt and/or uncertainty. That is the definiton of knowledge
There is no grey area in "knowing" - You either "know" something or there is uncertainty. If you have any degree of uncertainty, then you are without knowledge, a•gnostic.
The only certainty humans are capable of lies in the material realm.
The only things humans can prove lie in the material realm.
So I say again. . . If I could prove God, it simply would not be God.
I hope the mods don't think we are fighting
Lets be sure to use emoticons
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Posts: 204
Faith which does not doubt is dead faith.—Miguel de Unamuno
Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith. --Paul Tillich
Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart. And try to love the questions themselves.-- Rainer Maria Rilke
ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.1.a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning "without, not," as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, "knowledge," which was used by early Christian writers to mean "higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things"; hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as "Gnostics" a group of his fellow intellectuals"ists," as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a "man without a rag of a label to cover himself with," Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.
Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith. --Paul Tillich
Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart. And try to love the questions themselves.-- Rainer Maria Rilke
ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.1.a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning "without, not," as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, "knowledge," which was used by early Christian writers to mean "higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things"; hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as "Gnostics" a group of his fellow intellectuals"ists," as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a "man without a rag of a label to cover himself with," Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.
Last edited by Ninsuna; 12-29-2009 at 09:37 AM. Reason: clarity
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Originally Posted by Ninsuna
Faith which does not doubt is dead faith.—Miguel de Unamuno
Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith. --Paul Tillich
Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart. And try to love the questions themselves.-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith. --Paul Tillich
Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart. And try to love the questions themselves.-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Now lets get to the heart of the matter. . .
"Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers, depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs."
Consider, for a moment, the risk entailed by subverting the meaning of words.
When we proclaim ourselves as not agnostic - are we not running the risk of alienating the newcomer who actually knows what the word means? We can't go using words how ever we want to just because it makes us feel good, as if we have accomplished something.
Why? Because it leads to the feelings that were expressed in the opening of this thread.
To imply you know something that is inherently unknowable, and really a matter of faith, is demeaning to someone who actually knows what agnostic means.
It is supercilious and selfish.
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Well, I am always learning a thing or two around here I never really thought much about the meaning of agnostic... some one told me long ago that it was some who doubts the existence of God... but, apparently, I was told wrongly.
What do you think most people mean when they say agnostic?
I love words and their meanings and their origins... but I have come to accept that popular usage will change the meaning of a particular word...
Like Ego... I always thought that Ego was a part of our consciousness, a freudian term, neither good nor bad... good and bad are, loosely defined... the superego and id... But I find that the word Ego, especially here, used as a negative connotation... I went back to the Big Book... it wasn't that ego was our enemy and undoing... but rather it was egoism... or an egocentric vision of the world and it's events...
Just wondering...
Mark
I never really thought much about the meaning of agnostic... some one told me long ago that it was some who doubts the existence of God... but, apparently, I was told wrongly.What do you think most people mean when they say agnostic?
I love words and their meanings and their origins... but I have come to accept that popular usage will change the meaning of a particular word...
Like Ego... I always thought that Ego was a part of our consciousness, a freudian term, neither good nor bad... good and bad are, loosely defined
... the superego and id... But I find that the word Ego, especially here, used as a negative connotation... I went back to the Big Book... it wasn't that ego was our enemy and undoing... but rather it was egoism... or an egocentric vision of the world and it's events...Just wondering...
Mark
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Posts: 1,876
Hey Dig...was wondering how you were doing? A little ES&H if I might. My sponsor and I parted ways at about 5 months sober...there were no hard feelings between us...this does happen a lot in aa...I saw it often. Please do what is best for you as I have seen you struggle with this issue for quite a while now and remember your sobriety is in your hands. Wishing you a very happy New Year!
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Originally Posted by basIam
No, I am saying that I have faith that if I do God's work, he will take care of me.
Do I know that? No. If I knew that, I would never have doubt.
I can prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity.
I can prove the irrationality of √2.
Nothing can make me doubt these things, I know them. I understand them. I can explain them to people. I can repeatedly prove them.
I can't prove God will take care of me. I must take that on faith.
That is the beauty of it.
If I could prove God, it wouldn't be God. And it wouldn't be faith.
Its a simple yes or no question: Do you comprehend God's ways?
If "no", by definition you are agnostic, despite what you believe the word to mean.
Do I know that? No. If I knew that, I would never have doubt.
I can prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity.
I can prove the irrationality of √2.
Nothing can make me doubt these things, I know them. I understand them. I can explain them to people. I can repeatedly prove them.
I can't prove God will take care of me. I must take that on faith.
That is the beauty of it.
If I could prove God, it wouldn't be God. And it wouldn't be faith.
Its a simple yes or no question: Do you comprehend God's ways?
If "no", by definition you are agnostic, despite what you believe the word to mean.
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Originally Posted by Cubile75
Like Ego... I always thought that Ego was a part of our consciousness, a freudian term, neither good nor bad... good and bad are, loosely defined ... the superego and id... But I find that the word Ego, especially here, used as a negative connotation... I went back to the Big Book... it wasn't that ego was our enemy and undoing... but rather it was egoism... or an egocentric vision of the world and it's events...
... the superego and id... But I find that the word Ego, especially here, used as a negative connotation... I went back to the Big Book... it wasn't that ego was our enemy and undoing... but rather it was egoism... or an egocentric vision of the world and it's events...Ego, that part of my psyche that is aware of external reality - my affect on it, and its effect on me. Nothing more, nothing less. It is neither good, nor is it bad. It just is.
Egoism, worship, or reliance on my perceptions of how I affect and/or am effected by, my external reality.
Now. . . What are the tools of my Ego? My five senses. So, when my Egosim teams up with my doubt, faith is lost. Why? Because my senses are all but useless when it comes to a "spiritual" experience and can only help me "know" the material world.
And you are correct, words do change over time. So, I believe, we need to take the words in the context of when the book was written.
Suggestion, next time you are in a used book store. . go to the dictionary section. find the oldest dictionary you can and look up Ego and Agnostic.
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They probably do think we're fighting......lol !!
Okay, a few things I don't agree with.
1. Although agnostic is parsed to mean what you claim is it's definition, generally that is not how it is used. Ninsuna gave a good example of the definition and history as I understand it.
Example: If I said I have a hot rod Ford you could insist that I have a metal rod that is heated to some high temperature or another. You could parse the words to prove that's what I'm saying but.....that's not what I would be saying. Words do mean things but it's best to use the generally understood definition to communicate quickly and effectively.
2. Although human beings can only prove scientifically things that are in the material realm, we 'know' (gnosis) there are things that lie outside of that realm. For instance, emotions. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean we don't know if it exists. A baby can flip a light switch and electricity works the same for him/her as it does for an electrician. Knowledge is not necessary. The laws of the universe are what they are.
3. Again, why do you say that if you understood God it would not exist ?
You could just as easily say 'if I understood God, I would be God'. Maybe si, maybe no. Too many variables. First it depends on the nature of God and since you don't 'know' that as an agnostic, you can't make that claim.
Okay, a few things I don't agree with.
1. Although agnostic is parsed to mean what you claim is it's definition, generally that is not how it is used. Ninsuna gave a good example of the definition and history as I understand it.
Example: If I said I have a hot rod Ford you could insist that I have a metal rod that is heated to some high temperature or another. You could parse the words to prove that's what I'm saying but.....that's not what I would be saying. Words do mean things but it's best to use the generally understood definition to communicate quickly and effectively.
2. Although human beings can only prove scientifically things that are in the material realm, we 'know' (gnosis) there are things that lie outside of that realm. For instance, emotions. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean we don't know if it exists. A baby can flip a light switch and electricity works the same for him/her as it does for an electrician. Knowledge is not necessary. The laws of the universe are what they are.
3. Again, why do you say that if you understood God it would not exist ?
You could just as easily say 'if I understood God, I would be God'. Maybe si, maybe no. Too many variables. First it depends on the nature of God and since you don't 'know' that as an agnostic, you can't make that claim.
Originally Posted by basIam
That is the definition of agnostic.
Once I know something, I no longer am capable of doubt and/or uncertainty. That is the definiton of knowledge
There is no grey area in "knowing" - You either "know" something or there is uncertainty. If you have any degree of uncertainty, then you are without knowledge, a•gnostic.
The only certainty humans are capable of lies in the material realm.
The only things humans can prove lie in the material realm.
So I say again. . . If I could prove God, it simply would not be God.
I hope the mods don't think we are fighting
Lets be sure to use emoticons
Once I know something, I no longer am capable of doubt and/or uncertainty. That is the definiton of knowledge
There is no grey area in "knowing" - You either "know" something or there is uncertainty. If you have any degree of uncertainty, then you are without knowledge, a•gnostic.
The only certainty humans are capable of lies in the material realm.
The only things humans can prove lie in the material realm.
So I say again. . . If I could prove God, it simply would not be God.
I hope the mods don't think we are fighting
Lets be sure to use emoticons
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Posts: 112
Oh, for the record this is what Bill W had to say on page 28 of the 12/12 :
"Religion says the existence of God can be proved; the agnostic says it can't be proved; and the atheist claims proof of the nonexistence of God."
Bill sticks with proof of existence, not knowledge of God in any absolute or even meaningful sense. Just existence. Can it be proved, can it be disproved or can we not know.
"Religion says the existence of God can be proved; the agnostic says it can't be proved; and the atheist claims proof of the nonexistence of God."
Bill sticks with proof of existence, not knowledge of God in any absolute or even meaningful sense. Just existence. Can it be proved, can it be disproved or can we not know.
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Really Lost
I'm so very very lost about Angosticism since this thread started:
ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.1.a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. Here's how it's been repeatedly defined for me:
Atheist: There is no God.
Agnostic: There may be a God.
Believer: There is a God.
Going further:
Atheist: There is no God, he doesn't exist.
Agnostic: There may or may not be a God that does or doesn't exist.
Believer: There is a God and he exists.
From what I've gathered in this thread however:
Agnostic 1: There might be a God and he might exist.
Agnostic 2: There might be a God and he might not exist.
Agnostic 3: There is a God, but he doesn't exist b/c we have no proof.
Agnostic 4: There is a God, and he exists but we have no proof.
Agnostic 7: There is a God I have experience with but he does not exist.
Agnostic 6: There is no God but I'm not Aetheist.
What really confuses me is the people who went through the steps, had a spiritual experience, talk about God, then call themselves Agnostics. I've never heard of this before. I know lots of people who were Agnostic before the steps.
If you believe there is a God and you've felt his/her/it's work, and you can rely on it now, how can you be anything but some sort of believer? I don't know who he is or where he lives either, but I'm not going to say:
n.1.a. "It is impossible to know whether there is a God."
b."I'm skeptical about the existence of God"
2. "I'm doubtful and noncommittal about God."
"I do not deny the existence of God but I cannot know for certain whether or not he exists"
Talk about straddling the fence. And I thought I had commitment issues...
How do you approach this?:
p. 53
"we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be?"
When you see God throughout the steps and book what do you envision?
Is it mainly that you think there is no entity? No "being" that has put this miraculous universe together? It just happened by itself?
Can you even come to believe God might be a spiritual mass of swirling matter in space, or does he/she/it just not exist period?
When you type the word God, what are you referring to?
When you pray what do you pray to? A nothing?
My best friend says she is neither an Aetheist, Agnostic, or a Believer. She is a Spiritualist. She knows there is a God and he/she/it exists but she follows no religion. She uses them all. She says they all have the same God. Now I can understand that, but Agnostic still baffles me.
I believe anyone can believe in any kind of God they wish and work the 12-steps successfully. (Buddah, Bubba, whatever.) I'm glancing through the Big Book now. I can't see how it's possible to work the 12-steps and carry the message without having a Higher Power that actually exists.
I mean in step 2 for instance, Do you reword it:
"Came to believe in a power greather than oursleves that doesn't actually exist." ?
My intention here is soley to gain a better understanding of what you Agnostics believe, or "don't believe", which may be easier for me to understand.
Originally Posted by Ninsuna
ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.1.a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.
Atheist: There is no God.
Agnostic: There may be a God.
Believer: There is a God.
Going further:
Atheist: There is no God, he doesn't exist.
Agnostic: There may or may not be a God that does or doesn't exist.
Believer: There is a God and he exists.
From what I've gathered in this thread however:
Agnostic 1: There might be a God and he might exist.
Agnostic 2: There might be a God and he might not exist.
Agnostic 3: There is a God, but he doesn't exist b/c we have no proof.
Agnostic 4: There is a God, and he exists but we have no proof.
Agnostic 7: There is a God I have experience with but he does not exist.
Agnostic 6: There is no God but I'm not Aetheist.
What really confuses me is the people who went through the steps, had a spiritual experience, talk about God, then call themselves Agnostics. I've never heard of this before. I know lots of people who were Agnostic before the steps.
If you believe there is a God and you've felt his/her/it's work, and you can rely on it now, how can you be anything but some sort of believer? I don't know who he is or where he lives either, but I'm not going to say:
n.1.a. "It is impossible to know whether there is a God."
b."I'm skeptical about the existence of God"
2. "I'm doubtful and noncommittal about God."
"I do not deny the existence of God but I cannot know for certain whether or not he exists"
Talk about straddling the fence. And I thought I had commitment issues...
How do you approach this?:
p. 53
"we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be?"
When you see God throughout the steps and book what do you envision?
Is it mainly that you think there is no entity? No "being" that has put this miraculous universe together? It just happened by itself?
Can you even come to believe God might be a spiritual mass of swirling matter in space, or does he/she/it just not exist period?
When you type the word God, what are you referring to?
When you pray what do you pray to? A nothing?
My best friend says she is neither an Aetheist, Agnostic, or a Believer. She is a Spiritualist. She knows there is a God and he/she/it exists but she follows no religion. She uses them all. She says they all have the same God. Now I can understand that, but Agnostic still baffles me.
I believe anyone can believe in any kind of God they wish and work the 12-steps successfully. (Buddah, Bubba, whatever.) I'm glancing through the Big Book now. I can't see how it's possible to work the 12-steps and carry the message without having a Higher Power that actually exists.
I mean in step 2 for instance, Do you reword it:
"Came to believe in a power greather than oursleves that doesn't actually exist." ?
My intention here is soley to gain a better understanding of what you Agnostics believe, or "don't believe", which may be easier for me to understand.
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Originally Posted by sugErspun
What's that Joseph Campbell qoute?
Priest: "You don't believe in a personal god?"
Campbell: "No, Father"
Priest: "Well, I suppose there is no way to prove by logic the existence of a personal god"
Campbell: "If there were, Father. What then would be the value of faith?"
There is beauty and peace to be found in "not knowing"...at minimum, it leaves me open for experience. It is not to say that I do not have faith, or feel a connection. There is more to the relationship than knowledge or understanding of it.
I think I was just getting into ammends when I phoned my sponsor and said: "I AM agnostic!" Something clicked in me that even though I feel this power, it is much deeper than words could describe. The moment I box God up into a definition, I am fairly certain I am in for a big suprise.
I have to agree, there is a lot in "not knowing"..perhaps it helps sweep away prejudice. Enables me to think honestly. Encourages me to search diligently within myself...for within myself is where this power is to be found.
The chapter is "We Agnostics"..not "you agnostics" or "to those who are agnostic" or "Let us make a case for faith"....
I am agnostic, with a deep belief in the power of God.
--bb references taken from 1st ed.
Priest: "You don't believe in a personal god?"
Campbell: "No, Father"
Priest: "Well, I suppose there is no way to prove by logic the existence of a personal god"
Campbell: "If there were, Father. What then would be the value of faith?"
There is beauty and peace to be found in "not knowing"...at minimum, it leaves me open for experience. It is not to say that I do not have faith, or feel a connection. There is more to the relationship than knowledge or understanding of it.
I think I was just getting into ammends when I phoned my sponsor and said: "I AM agnostic!" Something clicked in me that even though I feel this power, it is much deeper than words could describe. The moment I box God up into a definition, I am fairly certain I am in for a big suprise.
I have to agree, there is a lot in "not knowing"..perhaps it helps sweep away prejudice. Enables me to think honestly. Encourages me to search diligently within myself...for within myself is where this power is to be found.
The chapter is "We Agnostics"..not "you agnostics" or "to those who are agnostic" or "Let us make a case for faith"....
I am agnostic, with a deep belief in the power of God.
--bb references taken from 1st ed.
Read "The Cloud Of Unknowing," a book of instructions for spiritual practice written by an anonymous 14th century English monk. God is found in the "not knowing." That is what is meant by "The more you I know, the less I know." Or "He who thinks he knows, knows not and he that knows that he doesn't know knows."
Thomas Merton said that if you want to find God, look in the dark.
This business of faith is not something that can be figured out. Just like you can't figure out life, you can only live it.
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