barb dwyer

my apologies for mis-spelling 'Buddhists'... no offense.

basIam

Economics???

Ribeye

Because the power greater than ourselves Bill was refering to was God (as we understood Him).

You didn't really have a sponsor that didn't know that, did you ?

jaitch

No no , thats Bills power greater than himself, it says Power greater than ourselves to allow the atheist/agnostic room to get through the hoop. So my question is valid, why does it change to God in one step,

One answer was that most atheists/agnostics come round to the notion of a God. Where then does that leave the minority who dont/cant come round to the notion of God.

Ribeye

Oh, I see what you're saying.

My understanding of AA history is that Bill wrote the steps. Although everyone agreed to them it was Bill who codified them. So as far as I know from what I've read Bill was a theist and he was talking about God in both step 2 and 3.

The atheist/agnostic group members contributed to the BB because of questions just like yours. That's why 'the group' can be used as a higher power. Bill (and most of the first 100) assumed that the group would be a stop gap higher power until the new guy got some conception of God for himself.

I know some atheist/agnostic types who just continue to use the group as their hp. That's probably the best solution I know of. There are some radical atheist/agnostics who can't work the program just like there are some radical theists who can't work it because the conception of God portrayed in the BB doesn't fit with theirs.

If you are open minded and tolerant you should be okay.

Also, if you think AA has what you need, you probably have to work the steps before you have all the philosophical problems solved.

Ananda

digger...change sponsors....you have dedicatedly tried to make this work for a long time now..I know cause i'v watched you.

insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results....what we need changes....so who can help us changes...its about me not them....who can I work with to more fully develop as a person....to learn....

For me....it isn't important that my sponsor and i think the same, believe the same...whats important is can i be honest....and yes ... at some point will they let me grow how I grow....

sorry if this sounds conviluded but i still believe in this program and you my freind need to simply do what you need to do to grow in recovery.

At this point I don't know what my sponsor believes and I don't care...cause it isn't about that...I wanna be sober...as the person I most related to in AA to date said...I want to be sober more than I want to breath...and the chips say "to thine own self be true"...the rest of that quote is something like...and thou can not then be false to any man....

I'm not in a position to really share adequately with you ...but I know you are on this path....I know that sobriety is possible for all of us....I know that you can find a sponsor that you can work with...work the steps and I believe find YOUR path....


ok...cornball ananda over and out

jaitch

Thank you Ribeye- that is a good answer. And you are right about the practising the steps, I do know the steps, but I dont dance.

Stereosteveo

Agnostic Sponsor? Do those words even fit together?

My understanding of Agnostic: Without knowledge, belief, faith.

How can anyone be qualified to sponsor unless they have had a spiritual awakwening as a result of the steps?

You mean you are looking for a sponsor who was previously agnostic? I'm obviously lost here.

I thought I was a believer. But I practiced nothing. So I got nothing. So I was agnostic. Once I started practicing I began to see results. Today I have knowledge, belief, faith, as a result of the practicing.

basIam

Knowledge has nothing to do with faith.

The only thing I can know is that which is material. That which is discernable via my 5 senses.

I am conscious of my faith (or lack there of at times) but I am not conscious of God (though I seek to improve my conscious contact)

The chapter is "We agnostics and not "to agnostics"

I've had a spiritual awakening in realizing my ability to sense something does not determine its existence.

Things have happened in my recovery that lead me to believe there is a god. But every time I try to "know" god, I come up short. So I quit trying to "know" god and I try to act on faith. Some days are better than others, but I find when I am successful, god reveals himself in subtle ways.

Ill put it this way, if I could "know" god... he wouldn't be adequate.

Stereosteveo

In my case it did. I did not "know" God could work for me. Now I have the "knowledge" that he can and will, hence faith because of knowledge. But slice and dice it anyway you want.

Your experience differs greatly from mine.

What do you call yourself then? Is agnostic lacking conscious contact?

Mark75

I know what you are saying... But... I see it more like... Knowledge is not required to find faith. I would submit that for some, knowledge might even get in the way.

The more I know, the more I understand how ignorant I truly am!

Mark

meditation

Several years ago before I became this person that spiraled downwards I was very very into God. I read the Bible, I prayed most of my day, I fasted I was truly infatuated and in total love with God. The more I wanted to know about Him the more I was given to know about him. He alone filled every need I ever had or thought to have. I know this was my spiritual awakening.
I fell off the wagon when I felt I could never live up to the expectations of what it meant to be His. What I failed to get was the Grace part of the whole issue. I was given his love and it was nothing I had to earn. I know that now but at the time I thought I had to earn it. And when you think you ever have to be so good or such a way to be loved by God then you will be hurt and think he doesn't care but that is not how it works.
God loves us because we are. We don't have to do anything but love him back.
He will never be inadequate but we will always be inadequate and we can't even know the many great ways he helps us through each and every day.
I guess I am trying to say that he loves us unconditionally.
It's a miracle nothing worse happened to me in my addictions and I am thankful for that. But it took the consequences it took to get me to see that my lifestyle was killing me.
I don't go to church and I don't follow any formal religion but I simply just know that something greater than me is at work.

basIam

Knowing that God is working in your life is not the same as knowing God, is it?

Wonderful things have come to pass when I sought God. I did not see God do these things.

I doubt that it differs greatly.

I am sure that you have had things occur in your life as a result of working the steps, just as I have. I am sure you attribute them to God, just as I do.
Can you prove that it is God? Neither can I.


As I said before. . . Agnostic.

Have you had conscious contact with God? I've never met anyone who has had conscious contact with God.

Have I sensed the prescence of God. Absolutely!!!

Do I know God? Absolutley Not! Do you???
Do I understand God? Absolutley Not! Do you???

To quote Darwin: "I think an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind. The whole subject of is beyond the scope of man's intellect."

I understand the atheist. But to say that one is gnostic, implies that, 1. Gods ways are indeed knowable and 2. that you know them.

Don't you find that just a wee bit arrogant?

For me, Agnosticism is the position of humility.

Again, the chapter is "We Agnostics" not "To Agnostics" !!!

basIam

for example. . .

read this thread:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...oulder-sr.html

That to me is a God thing. I have had many similar experiences. I attribute it to God in my life.

Do I know its God? No, to know that it is God is beyond my human intellect to know.

Do I have faith that it is God? Absolutely!

And you know what. . . I think My God is more pleased with me in that I don't ask for proof!

barb dwyer

to me ... knowledge is the EPITOME of faith.

it's the embodiment of it.

you know soemhting
you trust it.
that's faith.

basIam

I like the joe and charlie analogy...

You move to a new town where you know no one.
You need a mechanic so you ask around.
Everyone you meet recommends the guy on main street.
Believing the guy on main street to be honest and competent, you take the car there.
It turns out the guy fixes your car for a fair price.
Two months go by and you need a mechanic again.
This time you take it to the guy on main street because experience gives you faith that he is honest and competent.

We cannot know that he is honest and competent, but we can have faith due to personal experience, brought about by belief based on testimony.

McGowdog

I do not believe that all people in A.A. are agnostic. Some may have been. Some were and still are.

Dr. Bob sounds like someone who made a connection with God and never lost it up to his death. He just couldn't keep himself sober or summon this sobriety without the A.A. program and all the 12 Step work he had done. He seemed to have dedicated his life to it. When he was sober, he was a swell fellow and people liked him. I think of him as someone who had faith and never lost it.

Bill, on the other hand, was a messed up individual sober and seemed more at peace when he was drinking. But we all know how far that gets us. He, while drinking, was seeking the same Spiritual Awakening that all the saints and all of us are seeking... that do this spiritual path. But he seemed to be one who was touched deeply by a God experience... yet after a bit of time, it wore off. He had to reconnect or manually do some things to get aligned with this Spirit again. He did much service work. But, he seemed to have what I've heard descibed as a Chronic Agnosticism. I think I'm the same way. This is part of the reason why I do steps yearly.

I have been studying the "Point of View Continuum" put out by David R Hawkins, PhD clinician and mystic. In his continuum, the energy level of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous calibrates at an energy level of 540 which is also what the New Testament calibrates at. The Old Testament calibrates below 200, but if you look at just Genesis, the Proverbs, and Psalms, they calibrate at about 600. Revelations, about 70. The higher the number, the closer to Truth. The highest that the human mind with all the logic and reasoning at our disposal is no higher than 499. That is the realm of the human mind. That would include Einstein, Freud, Sir Issac Newton, etc. From 500 and up is the realm of the heart... or the Spirit. Carl Jung is at about 540. Why is he higher than 499? Because he studied the realm of the spirit.

Guess where drugs and alcohol take you to...according to Hawkins? About 600. But when we use those drugs or drink that booze, we are usually are ourselves at levels of from about 70 to as high as about 200. But when we come down off this "high", we crash down and seek to achieve that level again. With many drugs, we never reach that high again... but for a brief few moments... and we'll endure all sorts of torcher and pain to get there again.

So... I need a Power... that can take me to levels of existence in such a way that I can sustain a level of hapiness... a path that is built on "Truth" and not a "lie". It just so happens that the doing of the steps will get me there. But... once we embark on a spiritual path, we must keep on the path and not turn back... because anything less just will not suffice. There's a little warning after the 3rd Step Prayer that confirms this.

To me, my working definition of God... as a starting point... is "The Capacity to Manifest Existence". And that's just looking at one side of the coin. Looking at the other side of the coin, we see its opposite, or Pure Potentiality.

This is really nifty stuff for me... and it explains a lot. But tomorrow, today's spiritual food will be but a memory. Every day is a day we must eat... our own spiritual food.

joedris

Whoa, The Dog is going metaphysical on us. Sounds like an interesting book. I'm gonna have to read it. But getting back to the original issue, if your sponsor is keeping you stuck on step three until you agree with his concept of a higher power, then it's time to get a new sponsor. And I don't think an online sponsor is a very good idea. Your relationship with your sponsor has to be up front and personal, and face to face is the only way to do that.

You don't need an agnostic sponsor. You need a sponsor who's willing to accept that you're an agnostic. The Big Book doesnt require you to believe in God, it only suggests that you be open to the concept that a power greater than yourself might exist. But a word of caution here. Most sponsors are going to insist that you do things their way in working the steps. The insist on these this because that's what worked for them, and that's what they're trying to teach to you. So if (other than the higher power thing) your new sponsor comes up with something that you may not particularly like, do it anyway. He's the sober one, you're not.

Puddy

There is one who has all power - that one is God. May you find him now.

I must turn in all things to the Father of Light who presides over us all.

Anything less than that is just not drinking no matter what.

If you're an alcoholic as it's described in the Big Book, you may want to stop bending "the" program to fit you, and it might be time to work "the" program, not "yours" or "your sponsors".

Because untreated alcoholism - dry sobriety - is just as deadly, if not more deadly than active alcoholism.

If you had late-stage cancer, would you seek your solution and your specialist online?

I realize I'm probably not going to win any popularity contest with you, but I'm more concerned about your life than your feelings.

BB Quotes all editions.

Ribeye

LOL !!

You don't have to dance, just walk. One step at a time, one day at a time.