jaitch

Hi Ribeye, at this precise moment I am Hopping. Planning my acceptance speech for procrastinator of the year award..

Sober25

One does not have to be a god praiser to be a good sponsor. One only has to have a certain amount of sober time and a good knowledge of the 12 steps as a result of working them and living by them for a while. Agnostics and atheists in the fellowship are not second class citizens. We don't have to sing praises to some god to be able to help someone.

I'm guessing you didn't mean that to be offensive, but it is. There are many atheists and agnostics in the fellowship who have good sobriety. Perhaps we can be better sponsors to those who do not believe in god than someone who will insist that they "come to believe."

Ribeye

Oh yeah ?
I'll bite then. How long have you been procrastinating ?

jaitch

Ribeye,

Procrastinating since August 1993 when I first went to AA.

But seriously it is way over time, yes I could sit in my comfortable mediocrity for the rest of the 3 score years and ten. Or stop doing what I am doing and start doing what I really want to do.

Thanks for your interest.

Ribeye

Oh, that's not so bad. I thought you were gonna say you had 50 years sober and never worked the steps or something...lol.

I actually had to work the steps to get sober so it's a mystery to me when guys don't need to. God bless them, but I don't understand it.

But if you're ready then by all means dive in. It's alot easier looking back then looking forwards.

I've only been sober since 1997 and I first came around in 96. So, I only put them off for a year. Man, what a year too......

For the record, I've never heard anyone share that they worked the steps to the best of their ability and regreted it. I don't think we have anything to lose.

Good luck.

Puddy

Another title for "we agnostics" is "change your mind" - become a former agnostic. (Sandy B)

If you don't need to find God to be sober you may not need the 12 steps, or meetings, or AA.

This program was written by dying alcoholics for dying alcoholics - and the agnostics coming in at that time came to believe, or else left and died drunk.

Those that don't need God to be sober - but stick around AA and spout off the half-measures stuff - literally kill the dying alcoholics who hear it and then opt for that easier, softer way. And find out too late that they were dying alcoholics who needed the real program laid out by our founders. If they're very lucky they get to come back and do it right. Hence AA's current recovery rate of 1-10%.

Because of these facts, I'm careful what I say in meetings and I always try to remember that dying alcoholics might be in the room. They may not realize they are dying and may not look like they're dying. I didn't look like it or realize it for 5 years.

jaitch

Thank you ribeye, very encouraging words There is definitely a resolve I havent felt before, Ive been listening to some shares I downloaded that have added to it, and this site. My long unopened BB has been taken down from the bookshelf, I opened it at where I left off, which I couldnt quite remember was, Into Action, mere coincidence of course, My favourite step that I dont do is 11, Living step 11 is hard work when not practising the previous 10.

Thanks again for your kind and encouraging words.

Ago

Where does "why don't you choose your own concept of God" and "God as we understand Him" fit in then?

I'm with BasIam on this one, I don't care if YOUR God has a wee willy but keep YOUR God's wee willy out of my AA meetings, I can ABSOLUTELY be agnostic yet still have had a "spiritual experience" which our more religious members call "God Consciousness", the less religious among us call it "a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism"

My experience matches Basiam's exactly as far as having had experiences with "my God", that still doesn't mean I can define or put limitations on the God of my understanding, I DO know however that my higher power isn't Christian in any way shape or form, and that's the beauty of The Program, is we are ABSOLUTELY allowed to have a "God of our own understanding", I say the word "God" and you plug in YOUR God, and you say the word "God" and I plug in my value, and we agree harmoniously, you introduce theology and religion to AA you and I have a problem, as do you and the traditions.

Denigrating people who have a different understanding of God has NO place in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, nor does imposing YOUR God on others nor does saying get my God or you won't get sober.

You can ABSOLUTELY be an agnostic and have a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism, that's why it's best if we speak from our OWN experience and not impose our opinions on others.

Now gimme a hug

Sober25

Very well put. Consider yourself hugged.

Stereosteveo

"Long live the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!"

basIam

I believe, any understanding any one has of God would be a misunderstanding.
To assert one has complete understanding of God, I believe is arrogance.
Therefore to "know" God is impossible.

To say that one is not agnostic is the equivalent of their saying they are immune from doubt. Even those of great faith are overcome at times by great doubt.
This is due to the inherent human condition of agnosticism.

Agnosticism is not a dirty word.
On the other hand, to assert because one has doubt, then God does not exist is just as arrogant.

I choose to enbrace my agnosticism, that is my inate inability to "know" as part of my human condition. But at the same time I strive to set aside my agnosticism and act on faith, because when I do, amazing things happen.

Does this mean I now "know" God just because these amazing things happened? No, I can't prove it to be God. Sure, the numerous examples add up to God to a reasonable degree, but at some point there is always a degree of faith involved.

My agnosticism is what makes my faith wonderful!

Does that make sense?

Again. . . IF THIS WERE NOT THE CASE, THE TITLE OF THE CHAPTER WOULD BE "YOU AGNOSTICS" OR "TO AGNOSTICS" AND NOT "WE AGNOSTICS"

That is of course, there are things said in the big book you don't agree with????

Sober25

Hmmm, perhaps to some, but I wouldn't mind a little clarification.

Ribeye

Ummmm, a 'Christian' is one who follows 'Christ' which was really only a title given to Jesus.

No one's God is a Christian. Christians follow a particular understanding of God, ie Jesus was God who came down and became man. (hence we are celebrating Christmas).

Also I've heard he was fairly well endowed. Although I'm agnostic on that point as I wasn't there at the time.

But what the hell ? ((((Ago))))

basIam

When I came home from work on November 1, 2005 and found my girlfriend of 3 years had moved out. I was devastated.

My knowledge of the irrationality of √2 was still solid.
My knowledge of the validity of E=MC² was intact.
On the other hand, due to my agnosticism, my faith was shaken to its core.

Thank God, I was conscious of my belief and I walked through my doubt.
When I set aside my doubt and took action, my faith was restored, much stronger than before.

It was a belief that things would be ok, and not knowledge, that got me through.

My knowledge hasn't changed, though my faith has.
My agnosticism makes that growth in faith much more profound.

Is that clear now?

McGowdog

Ribeye! Steak sauce for you bud! Now you owe me a new keyboard. I just hocked up a big gob of coffee on my now smoking keyboardouch!

But ... in any case... with all this agnostic/religious talk... whatever our spiritual experience/awakening be, it's as it relates to "as a result of these steps."

I like to hear how atheists and agnostics can get this deal because it gives hope for others who may follow this path as well.

jimhere

Faith isn't necessarily a feeling, like this warm-fuzzy feeling that God loves me and everything will be all right. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't always feel that way.

Faith is paying back the money when I don't think that there will be any left for me. Faith is telling the truth when it would be easier to tell a lie.

Faith like just about everything else we talk about here, is a verb.

Ribeye

Hey Dawg. This debate is the really cool thing about AA. It's why I see our program as 'spiritual' rather than 'religious'. An honest to goodness atheist can have a spiritual awakening and come to a meeting with a born again Christian and they can agree on 99% of what they talk about. It's really amazing when you think about it. Sorry about your keyboard.....lol !!

Jim, I remember hearing Joe and Charlie talk about faith vs belief. They said Columbus had 'faith' that he would find land on his first voyage. On his second voyage he 'believed' it.

Faith implies that we are acting on an idea that isn't yet proven.
Your examples are perfect. Faith is doing the right thing even when the wrong thing seems easier and better. And when we do that we come to believe that there is a higher power because of the results of our 'practice' (verb) of faith.

Sober25

So are you saying that you have faith that things always work out for the best eventually?

basIam

No, I am saying that I have faith that if I do God's work, he will take care of me.

Do I know that? No. If I knew that, I would never have doubt.

I can prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity.
I can prove the irrationality of √2.
Nothing can make me doubt these things, I know them. I understand them. I can explain them to people. I can repeatedly prove them.

I can't prove God will take care of me. I must take that on faith.
That is the beauty of it.

If I could prove God, it wouldn't be God. And it wouldn't be faith.

Its a simple yes or no question: Do you comprehend God's ways?

If "no", by definition you are agnostic, despite what you believe the word to mean.

Stereosteveo

When I start labeling people despite their personal beliefs please refer to me from then on as Hitler, or maybe Jim Jones..

Oh nevermind, now I understand what you mean.