Ninsuna

My answer to your question SteveO (and mine alone) is that while I want to believe and make daily efforts to pray and turn my will over to a HP, I have doubt. I see things I could call God looking out for me, and say a prayer of thanks when I do but I have no idea if anyone is hearing those prayers. I sometimes feel something, a flicker or glimpse of something, but a God "person" is not it. The big book asks that I be willing to believe and open my mind and heart, which I work every day to do.

To say I do believe in a diety would in my opinion would be dishonest, and this is a program of honesty. I would also alienate the fellow alcoholic who feels the same way I do. I have often felt defective and alone in my lack of faith and I don't want to make someone else feel that way. There may be a time when I do believe but I don't like the "fake it til you make it" thing. I spent a lot of my drinking years pretending to be something I'm not to fit in, I don't want to do it in sobriety.

This explanation is sorely lacking, but I hope it helps. I'm very conflicted about spirituality, but I'm honest and I'm trying. I do know that if I was told I had to become a Christian to get sober I would still be out there. However, last weekend I went out of town to hear Father Tom speak and I left feeling inspired. (I like his tapes too.) The last time I saw a priest in person he was performing my wedding ceremony, lol.

I feel a love and acceptance in the rooms of AA that goes beyond anything I have ever felt in a church. Is that God? some positive universal energy? or just folks who are like me and trying to be better people? I don't know. Don't (A) know (-gnos).

Ago

This has turned into a theological discussion, not only that, it has proven Digs point that some alcoholics insist you get "their" God in order to get sober.

~ Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek ~


Tom Robbins

The bottom line is My God is My business, and your God is yours, and your God is none of my business, and my God is none of yours

The question here was can he find a sponsor with an agnostic view

The agnostics answered yes.

If you have any questions about if you can be an agnostic yet believe in God or after having worked the steps, there are other forums where you can start your own thread and not disrespect Digger, If you have a problem with it, it's your problem, and if you don't have any experience with it, why are you posting? I know that sounds antagonistic, it's not meant to, it's me asking the questions you should have already asked yourself.

No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.

So in a twelve step forum that models itself after AA, this conversation itself is skating on the thin ice of "this we don't need to discuss", in the spirituality forum is where this should be discussed, The BB doesn't tell me I need to understand your God, nor does it tell me I need to defend my understanding of God to you, it tells me I need to "made a decision to turn my will and my life to the care of God as we understand him"

I did that, and call myself Agnostic because I refuse to put limits on My God, thus I am "without knowledge" or "A- Gnostic", I am also "A-Theist" yet I have a God of my understanding, it just doesn't happen to be a deity, and call myself Atheist because creating God in our own image is the single vastest self centered thing humanity has ever done in a history of self centered things, So I may or may not believe there is a "God" but I am DAMNED sure he doesn't have a knocker, thus I am an Atheist, if you wish to discuss it I will find the discussion in the spirituality forum I hope, not hijacking someone else's thread

AW2486

I think the less we complicate the answer to alcoholism the better chance we have staying sober.

I have often wondered if I work with somebody that has a strong belief in God of his religion, Should we skip the chapter to the agnostic? Or should we see if maybe one of us could have a new experience?

Stereosteveo

How is trying to understand Agnosticism imposing, denegrating, or disrespecting anyone? The questions weren't meant to be a threat for you to defend with quotes that I'm already fully familiar with. Yes we hijacked the thread. I will take it elsewhere for a better understanding. Your personal explanation is very clear, although I have no better understanding.

"The bottom line is My God is My business, and your God is yours, and your God is none of my business, and my God is none of yours"

McGowdog

Good suggestion. I would like an old dictionary... or even a matrix type dictionary that "stands the test of time".

I like your description of agnostic too. I was recently "crucified" for saying my "working" definition is "One who says they believe in God, but act like they don't."

McGowdog

You're gonna drive me to drinkin' if. You. Don't stop drivin'. That. Hot. Rod. Lincoln.

Yeah, but the light switch is downwardly compatible. Besides that, the baby has child-like Faith. What I can't figure out is how the baby got up there. Did you know that you can bring forth light by flicking the switch, but when you shut it off, there's really not an "off" when it comes to light? Just the absence of light. Woah, another concept for ya!

We can know stuff outside of the realm of our brain/mind/noodle. In fact, have you ever heard the saying, "To experience God, you have to be out of your mind?" The heart. That's where God hides out.

God must exist because "God is the capacity to manifest existence".

God would also be That which is Pure Potentiality.

I exist. I can prove that. God created me, so that's a start.

And thanks to Jim, I came across some God stuff while studying the Traditions of all things... I am not God, but God is me. We are not God, but God is us...

I could go on and on...

Ago

I am not threatened, but thanks for checking, I am saying it's a simple fact that:


No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.

Thus, My God is none of your business.

Period.

That's why AA is spiritual not religious.

The Christian Religion is sectarian, thus we don't discuss it, exactly for this reason

I didn't find you denigrating or say you were imposing your God on others, please don't take quotes out of context, otherwise they don't mean what I meant them to mean, many of those were direct responses.

But yes, The OP asked if he could find a sponsor with an agnostic viewpoint, I will restate, if you aren't an agnostic and don't have any experience with being an agnostic and sponsoring others, why are you posting on his thread?

I like Paul, and he has had this difficulty with both his sponsor and his agnosticism in AA for a long time, is what you are posting on this thread helping him with this issue? Are the other posts telling him it's impossible without getting "The Father of Light" helpful, even though they have NO experience with being a sober alcoholic that is an Agnostic after working the steps.

He asked, those of us with experience answered, end of discussion isn't it? If it's not your experience that's fine too, I don't go lecture Christians about their program, and tell them they need to get the flying spaghetti monster because that isn't my experience, a person's beliefs is a deeply personal thing, and that's probably why the Traditions say we don't have an opinion on them. Even on the member level.

jimhere

Paul, the answer to your question will be found in Chapter 7.

I know it is called "Working With Others" and you're the one being worked with, but there some pretty straight forward guidelines directed at those of us working with others and how we should approach the agnostic, the atheist, and even those with religious beliefs.

Ribeye

No. Other people (this is a public forum) had questions and started a side discussion.

Just because you don't feel comfortable with people talking about their conception of a higher power, doesn't mean they're going to stop.

A bit of tolerance is in order here. The flying spaghetti monster is just a form of insult used by atheists to make a childish point. When you bring up phrases like that you are not trying to be helpful to other atheist/agnostics, You are trying to set yourself apart. You have every right to do that but it's not really a good way to recover in AA.

No believer in God has criticized you for being atheist/agnostic but you managed to insult any Christian here by saying Your God is not a Christian.

If you notice no one took offense because you were expressing 'your' concept of God. But now you tell us that we have no right to express 'our' understanding. That's not how AA works around here. Maybe the left coast is different ?

Ago

I am not offended in the slightest, nor do I wish to offend anybody, especially just by stating my God isn't 'Christian" in any way shape or form, I am absolutely comfortable talking about my higher power, and how to find one, I am stating two things:

1) I am asking if this side topic is relevant or helpful to the OP because one of the issues he has had/is having is a Christian telling him to get a deity or he can't get sober, I have experience with that, I am stating you CAN be an agnostic and work the steps, that his idea of a higher power needn't match his sponsors, that, like Jim said, there are VERY specific instructions on how a sponsor is supposed to work with a newcomer:
That is VERY simple, I do apologize if I seem to be coming across with a hard edge, or appear "offended" but I am not, I am just stating simply and baldly, in AA we are allowed to pick ANY conception we like, provided it makes sense to US.

Whether it be Wiccan, Christian, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, WHATEVER

Who and what my higher power is NONE of your business, and vice versa, I have sponsored Atheists, Agnostics, Pantheists, etc etc, it just. doesn't. matter.

What DOES matter is telling someone new they have to agree with YOUR concept of God, which DID happen in this thread, and Yes, THAT is offensive.

So between what Chapter 7 says, and the Tradition which states:


No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.

and keeping a thread on topic with the view in mind of helping the OP and not hijacking the thread, and AA members speaking OUTSIDE THEIR EXPERIENCE Yes, I probably appear irritated, I'm not, I enjoy repeating myself over and over and over

BB 1st edition

Ribeye

Yes, we can all choose our own conception of God/Higher power and yes the OP's sponsor was acting outside of his bounds. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

But to go so far as to say people shouldn't express their own experiences and beliefs in an AA meeting is setting yourself up for resentment and isolation. There's no difference between a Christian sponsor who won't allow an atheist to practice his own spiritual beliefs and an atheist who tries to stop a Christian. Both are equally wrong and go against AA tradition. Both are being intolerant and not putting principles before personalities. Part of the AA experience is listening to people who you don't agree with. That includes matters of personal faith (or no faith).

Oh well, time to read my BB and go to bed. I'm tired.......

digderidoo

Thanks Ago but i don't feel disrespected. I have not posted anymore on this thread on purpose, but still reading though. There is room for all people in AA, Christians, agnostics, atheist, other religions...it seems to me though that the only ones who don't get this are a minority of the ones who believe in a monotheistic God, unless the individual comes to their line of thinking on the matter.

At times this dominating aspect of the AA program from some has made me look for alternatives. But the reality is that i'm happy with my spirituality, i'm at peace with it, i feel fulfilled with it. The fact that there are those in AA who feel as though my spirituality doesn't fit in with the AA program says more about them that it does AA. This is where i'm at now, but i need to look at how my spirituality fits in with the program which is why i need a different sponsor.

I guess i look at this thread with the AA phrase, 'take what you want and leave the rest'.

Paul

digderidoo

Thanks Jim, i'm going to Amazon now.

Paul

jimhere

Hey Paul.

A little heads up-that book is not an easy read. What it is is an instruction manual, a guidebook to contemplative prayer.

If you would allow me to share a little experience with you, you may want to put it aside and finish the steps when you find another sponsor. Not that I don't think you are capable of grasping what is in that book, but for the time being it could actually get in your way.

digderidoo

Thanks Jim, although i have just ordered it...managed to get one for 82p along with the follow up The Book of Privy Counselling.

I take your point, but i do have a large library of spiritual type books. I think the more though i read about spirituality the more questions i then have. I grew up very religious and have a wide knowledge of all faiths, read the bible, quran, etc, spoken to people of many faiths. It's just for me i cannot believe in an existential God, but rather believe in a God or Universal force within. That Cloud of the Unknown looks like where i may be coming from on this, in that it looks like it's about connecting with a God found within. It looks a good read and no doubt i will take a look, but take your point on concentrating on the steps.

Paul

24hrsAday

i Remember Bill's Story in the Big Book.. and the Talk with His Old Friend in His Kitchen at the End Of His Drinking.. I For one do Not Understand God.. But.. I Pray to Him/Her/ It.. Every Day!

jimhere

Sounds good. And it sounds like you might be a little more spiritually advanced or knowledgeable than I was when I was new. I didn't wake up and become spiritually curious until I had begun to tap into that God within, that new found sixth-sense.

You nailed it though, it is about connecting with that God within. Which is also what the 12 Steps lead you to.

Has anyone ever shown you this prayer?

"Dear God,
Please help me to set aside everything I think I know
About myself,
About my alcoholism,
About these Steps,
And especially about God.

For an open mind and a new experience
With myself,
With my alcoholism,
With these Steps,
And especially with God."
Amen

Stereosteveo

Ditto what Jimhere said about your spiritual advancement.

Well, what I think doesn't matter. But what Ribeye said here is my exact experience:

Brief History:
I hid from and therefore could not do business with the God I brought to AA.
My sponsor told me to write down what I wanted new God to be.
I did that, it helped. (I wrote cool, loving, forgiving, friendly etc.)
My sponsor imposed nothing on me.
I spent the next year trying to figure out God.
I got really miserable.
I worked the steps.
As a result he/she/it revealed itself to me. I just became awakened to so many things in so many ways so quickly, is the best I can put it. A new level of consciousness that I had never been able to synthetically, or philisophically produce.

WARNING! Personal experience/opinions below:
In the book it says to the effect "Deep down inside each man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God"
I interpret that as: He's not out there, but in here, we just have to unblock him. I looked everywhere out there for the power. Personally I like to think we each have our own individual God. For the most part he's not out there but in here as ours. But that's just me.

Most importantly what I've found:
I have a natural tendency to slowly drift back to the Big Mean God Out There I somehow conceived at a young age. I get scared and quit practicing (praying etc.) I get miserable in self again. I have to constantly put effort into keeping him as my own personal God or else I start hiding again. So it's very crucial that I have my own conception, whatever it may be. That's what's so cool about AA.

Having said that, I see Ago's point better for the most part:
I could tell you about my God all day, but what good is it really going to do you? Although the talk of "A God who loves me unconditionally" helped me get a good start in AA.

Also I agree with the saying "Beware the man that knows he knows God." for the most part.

And like they say "You can tell an alcoholic, you just can't tell him much.."

Maybe that helps in your sponsor search. Maybe not.
Another 2c in the bottomless bucket.

Sober25

I actually posted the Agnostic 12 steps on the forum recently. They stayed up for several days but were eventually deleted by a mod.

Stereosteveo

Can you PM them to me please? Thanks.