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Old 08-07-2012, 08:19 AM   #41 (permalink)
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but i have battled this addiction for 9 years, it has landed me in so much trouble yet no matter how bad it got, or how bad DTs got after 9 days of drinking vodka and no food or water 24/7, for weeks i would claim never again but then the desire ALWAYS comes back, tricks my mind, and i try it again not even remembering the circumstances..
Change 9 years to 20, and we're exactly alike. I sure hope this works for you, we all deserve to live a better life, and can.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:19 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Zany:

I'll give you one thing- your posts are highly provocative. They definitely generate a strong reaction in me.

I've read and re-read your posts, trying to make some sense out of them and where your head is at. You're obviously intelligent, and there is a lot of rationalization going on, trying to use scientific fact to justify what you are/have been doing. Even in your posts today, you are still flip flopping.

Naltrexone is supposed to be a safety net, not a crutch for you to take when you want to drink. The Sinclair Method is not an approved use of the medication. Your intentions with Naltrexone is in fact abuse of yet another substance.

Sorry to be so direct in my opinions, but I feel like you are waging this argument inside your head and coming here so that you can get outside support for the illogical side of your argument. Right now the Beast has the upper hand in the battle of your brains.

Abstinence is the only cure for alcohol abuse.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:28 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I definitely am not meaning to come across provocative ... when you say it is supposed to be used as a safety net... is that not what i am doing when i say its there if the urge becomes too much to control? (This isnt supposed to come across as argumentative just a genuine question)

Youre right - i am at a crossroads and finding it extremely difficult. Days and days i struggle but get through without drinking, but then there are days where possibly something happens or a trigger goes off in my brain where the compulsion to drink becomes so strong that i cant control it, it happens before any rational thought about what im about to do comes into play... Having taken naltrexone is this not the safety net measure?

I dont "want" to drink any more - this addiction is so hard to describe, i dont want to be a drinker let alone an alcoholic, but when the compulsion kicks me into buying and drinking if the naltrexone takes the bang out of the drink then surely this is the safety net? If i wanted to use it just as an excuse to drink i would literally just take it every day and drink every day, but i try my hardest to get maximum days away from alcohol, it just makes me feel better knowing that the naltrexone is there if an uncontrollable urge comes on that it will help to control that one particular situation, rather than control a drinking career...

I literally dont mean to provoke anyone
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:33 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Zany:

The prescribing information for Naltrexone is:

Treatment of Alcoholism:

A dose of 50 mg once daily is recommended for most patients (see Individualization of Dosage ). The placebo-controlled studies that demonstrated the efficacy of REVIA (naltrexone) as an adjunctive treatment of alcoholism used a dose regimen of REVIA (naltrexone) 50 mg once daily for up to 12 weeks. Other dose regimens or durations of therapy were not evaluated in these trials.

A patient is a candidate for treatment with REVIA (naltrexone) if:

The patient is willing to take a medicine to help with alcohol dependence
The patient is opioid free for 7-10 days
The patient does not have severe or active liver or kidney problems (Typical guidelines suggest liver function tests no greater than 3 times the upper limits of normal, and bilirubin normal.)
The patient is not allergic to REVIA (naltrexone) , and no other contraindications are present

Refer to CONTRAINDICATIONS, WARNINGS, and PRECAUTIONS Sections for additional information.

REVIA (naltrexone) should be considered as only one of many factors determining the success of treatment of alcoholism. Factors associated with a good outcome in the clinical trials with REVIA (naltrexone) were the type, intensity, and duration of treatment; appropriate management of comorbid conditions; use of community-based support groups; and good medication compliance. To achieve the best possible treatment outcome, appropriate compliance-enhancing techniques should be implemented for all components of the treatment program, especially medication compliance.
(emphasis added)

The medication is intended to be taken daily to reduce cravings and lessen the effects of alcohol, if consumed. This is why I call it a safety net.

If not taken daily, you are increasing the likelihood of cravings. Most people here will tell you that cravings usually pass within less than 10 minutes and they have found coping strategies to distract themselves from the cravings. I take the view that you are using the medication as a crutch because you are misusing the drug to allow for cravings and then taking the medication. Peak plasma levels occur within one hour. You could use your mind to control those cravings before the med becomes effective. So this is your crutch, because rather than fight those cravings you are taking a pill that won't kick in before you give into your cravings and drink.

That is the distinction I make. Hopefully it makes some kind of sense to you too.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:02 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Ok thanks for the reply... the problem i was having is basically that i live in the UK, and in the UK naltrexone is only licenced for use in opiate drug addiction such as heroin.

My doctor said he would prescribe it to me "off record" for alcohol addiction rather than heroin addiction, and his exact words were "its getting excellent results in finland, other parts of europe and america, i have one patient on it and he is definitely drinking less and i would rather you take this than anatabuse because i am not a fan of it whatsoever"... He prescribed it every day rather than what TSM states in only taking it on drinking days where the cravings cant be controlled.

I was worried that since the drug blocks endorphines that it would block pleasure from good things aswell such as exercise, music, food, etc etc, where if used only on an uncontrollable craving day it would only affect the pleasure from the alcohol

Since it is not licenced for use for alcoholism in the UK, the information that comes with the drug does not mention alcohol use, only heroin, morphine, dihydrocodeine etc

Then i hear about TSM and how it causes pharmacological extinction etc, definitely am at a crossroads but I know i will kick this addiction.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:06 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Eventually, the person LEARNS (or re-learns) that there is absolutely no point in drinking alcohol, because there is nothing in it any more - thereby leading them to complete abstinence without the craving for the euphoria or endorphins. Eliminating the mental obsession they talk about in AA.
Well, I am highly skeptical of TSM, for many reasons... And it is an opinion and I only share that because I want to be transparent regarding my own bias...

That said... Yea, that whole craving thing, it was pretty tough at first. It sucked, truly... I could deal with them, they were "tangible" and identifiable, for the most part. There are many techniques to handle them... AVRT, Prayer/AA, exercise, sugar, all that...

But what you said... the person LEARNS there is absolutely no point in drinking alcohol... LOLOLOL

That was the HARDEST thing to learn... No point in alcohol????... what about all those parties, out to dinner, watching football with the guys, new years eve... all that... There is such a HUGE social and behavioral connection to alcohol for many of us... Not to mention, for me, a deep spiritual (I am AA so hold your guns) disconnection... some call it a "hole in the soul" ... and if you have it, you know what I mean....

For me, the cravings were a temporary nuisance and a source of some discomfort that passed... The hard part was to truly LEARN, for me, that there is no point in drinking alcohol, socially, gastronomically, spiritually.... I am deeply skeptical that a pill could have done all that...
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:13 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Well i think all that they mean by changing the cognitive learning of drinking alcohol is that if one drinks while on naltrexone while in one of the situations you mentioned, there is no pleasure derived from the drink - so it is rendered pointless.

I am in AA aswell by the way and have nothing to say about spirituality because i fully enjoy reading books by wayne dyer, eckhart tolle and praying... the only reason i asked about TSM was alongside AA and other addiction support like i mentioned because i find it extremely difficult to just "stop"... i hear all the time "Since i came to AA i have never had to have another drink" and it makes me feel like a failure because i slip all the time :/
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:15 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Why do you slip?
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:26 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Im starting to notice triggers. The times i slip are when i get almost instantaneous catapult craving... there are cravings all the time but that im aware of that i can control, work though, get through the day sober no problem

Then there are the lightening quick "bang" and im on it without a second thought, as if my thought process is too quick to even contemplate... on a standard craving i can sit and think, no, if i drink, i may loose control, and then this may happen, that may happen...

The other type of craving is when something, usually an argument, anger, frustration or things like that kick in and its so powerful that im "over the road" before my concious mind has any chance to process what could possibly happen.

This is why i feel like a failure or different. The amount of times ive heard, well why did you do it you know what happens, and yet im asking myself the same question - why did i do it? it happened before i even realised or had a chance to think it through...

I dunno people think i make excuses left right and centre but i am 25 years old, i genuinely want a normal life not an alcoholic life, i am aware of the addiction, but sometimes its as if there is a complete mental shift where consequences are not even an integral part of my thinking mechanism... its so hard to describe
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:29 AM   #50 (permalink)
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A huge one is lonliness aswell.. which leads to frustration and then a lightening quick "fk it" feeling which i always regret the next day ... people recommend aa meetings, but i dont always want to go to meetings to talk about alcohol

i want a life away from alcohol, but every single person i know my own age is at the bar at the weekends or after work watching football, im either in a meeting talking about alcohol (which is what im trying to get AWAY from), or sitting at home feeling lonely...

The addiction has rendered my confidence nil, so going out on my own to try new things (or even thinking of new things for that matter) is near impossible for me because its all ive really known for so long
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:45 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Well, perhaps, step back a minute and consider what this med does... It blocks those receptors that are looking for alcohol... this is biochemical, you know... The receptors do have to change once we aren't feeding them alcohol... and they change back... on a biochemical level...

Cravings are, as I understand them, physical, biochemical... all that. That is where naltrexone may help you...

That other stuff... loneliness, anxiety, frustration, heartache, all that... IDK how naltrexone is gonna help you, in the long run.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:52 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Its a multiple fold thing i think ...

naltrexone and campral help with cravings... and if the triggers become so strong and one of those catapult cravings kicks in then the drink becomes totally unsatisfactory anyway as i experienced the other night, so eventually it just doesnt do what its supposed to do in those circumstances (as my addicted brain would have it)

On the other hand im going to have to force myself - Like, every time ive ever asked a girl out, its been glass in hand, entire social life, bars and parties, everyone i know, constantly drinking, AA yes a great help, but all about alcohol.

Since i admitted i am an alcoholic no-one invites me out any more, since all they ever do is go to the bars and clubs - it may be helping in some sense but has just left a massive hole...

I grew up in circles where partying was all there was, and its kinda left me feeling like i dont know what else to be doing

I think the meds are a help not a cure, my thinking was along the lines of if a slip happens then it just doesn't work anyway so it kinda re-inforces how useless alcohol really is

Meanwhile im gonna have to pluck up the courage to ask people out without alcohol, I cant wait to get back into education in september because it will be a distraction and again my ultimate goal is a degree that can get me into a great career so thats what im aiming for but at the minute its kind of a void

I totally agree the meds are entirely useless in the situations that make me drink but could be very useful in the prevention, or if a slip happens, reinforcement of abstinence
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:19 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Hey man, I want you to be happy and successful and have a great life... But I gotta tell you, It seems to me that this approach to taking the naltrexone kinda gives you permission to drink... like if I do, it does't count, because I didn't feel it because of the naltrexone...

Work on the feelings and issues you have that set you up for a slip... In the long run, I think, you will be much happier and truly sober.

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Old 08-07-2012, 11:43 AM   #54 (permalink)
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I know man its just so hard... i now know why they call it recovery - it aint just about getting the cork in the bottle. thats the easy bit :/

its the LIFE .. heres an example, i am currently attending a course ive been sent on and theres a girl on it, after 3 more classes il never see her again, she is the most beautiful girl ive ever seen in my life, and such a nice person...

I wish i was the guy who could just ask her out for a coffee or whatever and leave it .. its not rejection im scared of, its as if i wouldnt have the bottle (not literally lol) without a drink in me, to ask in the first place... if i could ask, even if rejected id feel so good that i could even do it... but these are things im going to have to learn... ive come a long way but now the things that bug me such as no companionship or no social life atm because the rest of them are actively alcoholic-ing it (and i dont say that lightly its shocking how many people im seeing who have it but dont realise it), and i want away from that... im gonna have to force myself to do things well out of my comfort zone

Im by no means giving myself permission to drink because of nal, its just another way i think that if it kicks in, its not that it "doesnt count" but if theres no "fix" out of the drink then its , well this is entirely useless now, the learned part of the addiction becomes broken

i know this is something that may be hard for alot of people to understand or alot of people may be against it but i think im even addicted to the buying and pouring of the stuff... so eventually that would all become broken...

im going to keep taking naltrexone and acamprosate alongside my other support, talking, and hope that i can gain some confidence to work on the things that really bug me because i know im a good guy and most of my drinking is down to lonliness and such a strong desire for a good life, i want to go travelling, good career, girlfriend, settle down... i desire all of that more than any drink but i think the pain of not knowing how to get out of this hole due to lack of acomplaces now that theyre all out doing what i dont want to be doing and lack of confidence in doing new things is the main trigger..

People do recover, my doctor did say im happy to see you in the motivated stage even if you are relapsing because you are getting better than you think you are, in the earlier stages of alcoholism you were drinking so much i didnt know what to do with you and just didnt seem to recognise what lies ahead... now i do, and i want a bright future, i just dont know how to get it

cork in bottle is one thing but it leaves that, "what now"... as ive realised
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:58 AM   #55 (permalink)
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i think im even addicted to the buying and pouring of the stuff... so eventually that would all become broken...
Will it, though... become broken...?? There is built in reward and all that with whatever ritual is involved with that, regardless of whether you get the buzz... You could make the argument that you get a dopamine kick out of it anyway, which will continue to reinforce that behavior, regardless of whether you took the naltrexone.

Do what you need to do zany... just get recovered. Good vibes and prayers coming your way.
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Old 08-07-2012, 12:12 PM   #56 (permalink)
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it will become broken man, because i have the DESIRE, and the dopamine reward is blocked with the nal, because i have support from AA, doctor, gp and councellors aswell as a genuine WANT to stop drinking...

i think that naltrexone could be used for someone whos in the "i wanna keep drinking" mode in the wrong way... but for me i can personally account for throwing the head up buying a drink and taking it on naltrexone being nothing but "flat" disappointing and pointless, even boring, honestly... i wondered is this what it feels like to drink for a non-alcoholic because its sh1t!

I am learning that the things i need to work on are confidence, social life and possibly things from the past more than anything but i definitely would not wipe these meds off the cards as an additional support for someone like myself... not if they are just used as an excuse to drink.. .even if they are the person doin so will be sorely disappointed when they do drink...

the main thing is to actually take the bloody meds, and do the rest of the suggested things.. it would be too easy to not bother takin the tablet or not bother seeeking help but im past that stage... before i even get my breakfast i take a vitamin B1, multivitamin, campral and a naltrexone... Then i get on with my day, with an urge to be sober, have very good friends in AA who i talk to every day and do try to work the program of recovery aswell.. aswell as being in harm reduction and community addiction

i find it VERY, VERY hard... ive been in jail, ive been homeless, ive been alot of things but after weeks, ive never been where that desire hasnt crept back as much as i want john barleycorn to leave me alone and wish id never met him.. as much as i pray... i take all the help i can get man, medicinal or not...
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Old 08-07-2012, 12:20 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Then take it... I am not judging you, though it may seem like it... You know...??

Whatever..It..Takes..

OK?
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:56 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I hope you can just ask the girl out for a coffee Zany,

even try get her no and txt her, easier way to break the ice, just tell her in the txt that ur nervous.

Girls not monsters and she'll understand
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:02 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Lol... the problem being that i am in the class of maybe 10 people sittin in chairs around the flip board (which is a load of crap tbh lol), and then theres her taking the class, alongside her older collegue... so i dont exactly get to talk to her alone... i was thinking on the last day of just handing her a letter saying something like "This may be inappropriate but i have to ask anyway - if you would like to go for a coffee sometime my number is xxxxxx" - because theres no way im doing it in front of that group of people :/ but il be absolutely raging at myself if i dont at least ask... problem is she knows i have issues with alcohol - which is a reason my brain will say "dont ask no one would want to go out with someone like you" .. ack .. it gets sickening the way the alcoholic brain works to be honest
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:39 PM   #60 (permalink)
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If you are in AA, have you worked the 12 steps yet? The relief and freedom are real. Get through ALL 12 of 'em and then work 10, 11, & 12 daily!
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