bugsworth

Keith, It means so much to those of us who have worked diligently to achieve and maintain our sobriety when you acknowledge that it takes hard work and effort. It seems much of the time others act as if we just woke up one morning and simply walked away without all the ensuing emotions and issues that enviably arise after years of alcohol addiction. For that I thank you.

The claims that abound regarding those who choose sobriety without aa are pervasive in many posts. Starting with and not limited to an automatic assumption that those who choose another avenue other than aa are not “real alcoholics” and that is disparaging in of itself. I have no doubt in my mind that my death was eminent if I did not stop drinking...I know this because part of me wanted to die...I saw no end in sight to the unyielding anguish. Fortunately I had a moment of clarity and thought about the legacy that my children would have to burden for the rest of their lives if I followed through...this was my turning point...my sufficient reason. I had three choices...remain a drunk...kill myself or get sober. I got sober because I wanted to live a sober life and I was going to do what ever it took to get it. We are not so different...same addiction, different “treatment” if you will.

Without any real exceptions, the people of whom you speak that “need something else” need to know the truth...no one else can get them sober...it always has been and always will be an inside job. There are as many paths to sobriety as there are people to walk them. I agree with you, there is hope for all.

mistycshore

And that's a heck of a limitation.

Telling the truth is sometimes a disservice, I agree. But I think those are rare occasions and this isn't one of them.

Well then, we're going to have to somehow define "reality" as being different from "fact."

This is based on your own belief, Keith. It does not gel with what Anna or anyone else who responded to this thread said. Why is it so important to you that AA be the one-size-fits-all solution for the population of the planet?

Feel free to challenge it, but you might want to think carefully about what that stat means. Also, evidence would be helpful. Personal testimony and personal belief, such as one finds in your post, Amway presentations and religious revivals - is not evidence.

You are arguing against your own dogma here, Keith. Your own BB will tell you that, per the author (certainly not the most reliable source), 25% never recover in AA. Of course, those people are labeled as "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves." What I find defeatist is your insistence that just "getting God" will work 100% of the time. The FACT is it works about 5% of the time, so the other 95% are . . . what? Constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves?

Yes, that's the bugger about recovery. Relapse is common - it is the whole problem with addiction, it is the very definition.

Well far be it from me to question your authority on what will work for other people, but your Whitmanian insistence that your experience is everybody's experience is really astonishing - and definitely not based in reality.

The fact I stated is that any recovery program works about 5% of the time. So I'm guessing - no proof to offer here - that the 5% that recover in AA might or might not be the same people who recover on their own. Or they might or might not be the same people who would recover in SMART, or on SR or anywhere else, or through engaging in therapy, or using opiate blockers or through using anti-depressants, etc. - but I'm guessing . . . NOT the same people. So, stop and really think about that, Keith.



Who are you serving here? It seems to me that you are more concerned about promoting AA than seeing people recover, because if the latter were the case - the more options, the better - right?

Why do you keep chasing me around yelling, "my way, my way, my way"?

Well, duh! Gee whiz, Keith, I imagine that it is a few people who wind up in a recovery program without having already tried to stop on their own. Actually, maybe not so few since 12-step programs have become something of a dumping ground for the justice system. But I believe a great many more wind up quitting on their own, or through other methods, because 95% of people who experience drinking problems do not die of alcohol-related deaths.

Here's a clip of an article that appeared just today. A link to the full article follows:

A. There are some really astonishing new findings. One is that over 70 percent of people who develop an episode of alcohol dependence in their lifetime have a single episode that lasts on average three or four years, and then they remit and they don’t relapse. About 12 percent of adults have had alcohol dependence in their lifetime, at some point.

This is from this new study called the National Epidemiological Study on Alcohol and Related Conditions. It is the largest psychiatric epidemiological study ever done; 43,000 people were interviewed. This is a household probability sample of the United States population, and what makes it absolutely unique is that the same people were interviewed three years later. So we have all this new information about the natural history, about relapse, about incidence and about subtypes.

Most of what we previously knew about alcoholism has been based on studies of 40-year-old white male alcoholics in treatment. Almost everything we hear about the disorder is based on that very small population.

Q. That’s basically the profile of Bill W., the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, right?

A. Precisely. It’s the profile of A.A.; it’s the profile of treatment program participants. These are people that have been ill for decades. They almost all have the chronic relapsing form. Most of them have coexisting psychiatric disorders. A lot of them have other things like social disability or physical disorders. It’s a pretty ill bunch.

If you look back over the history of how we learn about diseases, it always starts with the hospitalized people, and then over time gets to milder sorts of outpatient groups. Then when you get to the community, you get the full view, and that’s what we’re getting now. We’re finally understanding what the spectrum of the disorder actually looks like. And we’re finding it’s not this either/or thing.


Alcoholism - Expert Q & A - Challenging Old Assumptions About Alcoholism - NY Times Health

Fubarcdn

I quit six months ago because my wife told me I either quit drinking or to leave our place.
I made a list of the good and the bad of drinking and on the top of the list of reasons to not drink is my relationship with my wife.
As long as that outweighs all of the rest of the reasons to not drink I will remain sober.
It sounds like your boyfriend is in the same headspace as I am so I say give him a good chance and trust in him and see what happens.
I know this is contrary to the general opinions here but this is my experience to date.

keithj

I sympathize with your frustration of being labelled non-alcoholic just because you didn't use AA. I'm not comfortable with the circular reasoning I hear.

I think we can absolutely agree, bugsworth, that if you are a real deal alcoholic, it's going to take an awful lot of hard work and effort to get and stay sober. Doesn't matter what approach is taken, some serious dedication is required. And, I agree that sobriety is the ultimate inside job.

As to the original post, it still probably depends on where that person is in their addiction. If they are far gone, it's going to take some real change, not just playing around. As to mistycshore's last post, I think I'll graciously leave that alone. Although I'd love to see examples from that 95% of people who take AA's steps and fail to recover.

bugsworth

Keith, My frustration does not stem from what others believe me to be or not to be but rather it stems from my and other non-aaers inability to share our experience strength and hope without being told that it will be ineffective in helping a “real” alcoholic.
The 95% rate which is quoted so often is a retention rate of newcomers after one year...only 5% remain in aa.
I think the reason you don’t see examples of people who work the steps and fail to recover is because according to aa it’s impossible. When any member drinks it is always (as it should be) their responsibility. The program is never at fault it is always something the individual did or did not do. It is by design that this is so thus making the program infallible.

keithj

Yeah, I know that bugsworth. I'm not sure mistycshore does, but that's OK. I'd guess 5% is about right when talking about retention or those coming into AA and actually recovering. But walking into AA and taking AA's steps are very different things. I know that you are aware of that.

I've never based my views on the success rate of AA by what's in the book. It's just my own observation, which, granted, is very limited. Over the years, it's become apparent to me that the folks walking in to AA who work the steps will recover. They are still around years later. The folks who do not work the steps have mixed results. Some of them are around, most are not (95% maybe?). Many show up a few months, or a year, or even a few years later having had the sh*t beat out of them. And we go through it again. Those who work the steps recover. And so forth. After a while, that 'rarely have we seen a person fail' bit makes sense. It matches my experience.

I just don't see those who recover on their own. So I make no claims about them. I see examples of them, like yourself, and I believe what you say.

bugsworth

Believing me, while a nice by product of this conversation, is less of an issue than allowing the truth to resonate. It would be difficult for you to see people who recover on their own simply because we are not in aa. Thankfully the internet has changed all that. This board is a shinning example of sobriety both in and out of aa, no longer can you say that you don't see those who recover on their own....we are here and ready to help those who come seeking hope.

mistycshore

And, therefore, omniscient.

Boleo

I have had this argument with AA members about a bizillion times before. One of them said to me:

"Has it ever occurred to you that 95% of those coming into AA meetings don't want to permanently recover? What they really want is to recover their stuff (drivers license, job, bank account, spouse, ect...)."

By this standard, I would have to admit that most of them do recover based on their short-term goals and limited expectations.

AA is not for those who need it. AA is for those who want it.

bugsworth

An aa member said to you that 95% of those coming to aa don't want to permanently recover and you took that as a fact?

I absolutely agree that there are people that come to the rooms to appease other or the courts and that sobriety is not really what they are looking for but all 95%? 950 out of every 1000 people that show up as newcomers really don't want help? That's just not logical.

Wolfchild

There is the issue regarding obsessive and compulsive behavior, which often contributes to greater difficulties than just alcohol or drug use. Many of those in the psychiatric field agree on this point because it creates a solid definition of what 'addiction' is. This enables the healthcare provider to recommend what treatment seems most therapeutic at that time. There are not too many medical professionals that would dispute the effectiveness of an appropiate Twelve Step program, as part of what could be most helpful to the individual.

Addiction is what leads many people down a path of life which is centered in self-obsession. The 'instant gratification' many of us sought in drugs or alcohol is what led us to join those fellowships. But what of the person who choses to put forth great effort into the accumulation of money, property, or prestige so much so that it affects their health? Does it really matter what causes the deterioration of a person's spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical well being? It is not so much a matter of drawing a distinction between the ways a person chooses to 'recover' that which was lost, as it is understanding how the exact nature of the disease affects an individual. Establishing a common ground helps us to help each other with our problems so that we may lead responsible and productive lives. To put fine points on how one process works better than another only serves a counter productive purpose. It would be like saying that God only helps these people over here because of this condition, but not those people over there because they have a different variation of sickness. We who have lived through our own personal experiences with alcoholism, or addiction, or whatever, are better qualified to help those who have similiar problems than someone with just a bunch of head knowledge. If we had financial problems, would any one of us be going to Donald Trump for advice? i'd rather go to someone who has had experiences such as i and who has 'recovered' from them to live a better life!

Those of us who are passionate about our recovery are also very grateful to the fellowship that has helped us in ways we could not help ourselves. The thing to remind ourselves is that a spiritual program of recovery needs no one to defend it. It stands on it's own merit and attracts those who are truly seeking a new way of life.

gravity

Sure it's possible!

There are several alcoholics in my family. Some quit using AA and others quit by becoming heavily involved in spirituality/formal religion. My sister (don't know if she is an alcoholic but she was a binge/blackout drinker) just got sick of drinking and stopped.

Personally, I have no use for statistics. If anything, I use them for motivation, to prove them wrong! I love it when the odds are against me and I'm told that in all likelihood I will fail!

I think that recovery is a case-by-case individual thing. Great if he can quit without a recovery program. If not, he can look at other options. The key is to never give up. I believe that there is a solution for everyone.

paulmh

Point of information Keith, Bugs DID get sober in AA, she just doesn't use meetings any more.

That's right isn't it Bugs?

Carry on!

bugsworth

Paulmh...That point is debatable depending on the subject. LOL Most people tell me I was never in aa just around aa.

Yes indeed I did go to aa for 10 months utilizing the meetings only. I had no intention of ever taking the steps which is the "program". I am sure I had mentioned this before to Keith. Since meeting, as have been argued time and time again, don't keep you sober aa was a place that I was able to dry out and I will always be grateful that I went.

mikefreak

I got serious about getting a spiritual life, And I've been sober for nearly eight months. My "outside help" is the Lord. I'm not a nut about this, but so far Jesus Christ has been taking good care of me. Couldn't do it on my own.............

Zencat

Why not. The "just stop" drinking has worked for a few of my family members. They were the true alcoholic type but they stopped on their own and went on to live clarifying, peaceful and productive lives.

I see it depends on the individual. Some can do it wile others cant. Those that can seem to know it...all the rest seem to fake it until it breaks them. Cant tell the two apart until the final analysis tho.

Boleo

If I had been able to "just stop" by using any of the following tricks & tips;

Don,t drink even if/when your ass falls off
Put the plug in the jug
If you don't pick up that first drink you can't get drunk
I have to keep the painful memories of my last drunk fresh in my mind
I just have to realize that I am 1 drink away from my last drunk

I would never have sought any help from ANY recovery program in the first place. I would never have tried to share ANY message with other alcoholics.
I would not be here now trying to warn others that while recovery may in fact be simple, it is certainly not easy.

mistycshore

You know, that first one (and I know it's really common around the tables) is a really stupid statement. I thought so the first time I heard it and I still do. No one's ass has ever fallen off, not in the history of the planet! So what I'd say is: "If your ass falls off, feel free to reach for that drink, but not before."

bugsworth

LOL Misty that was cute! I always thought that slogan a tad silly myself!

Daisy09

Hi Allison,

Yes, it is. My dad was an alchoholic. When I was 5, he stopped, because my Mom told him to choose beer or his family. Never did any program, just worked hard on himself, by himself, and never drank again. He chose his family

Daisy