Gypsy Feet

I'm 6 months in, but I don't consider it "on my own". I have all the fab people here at SR, and a library full of recovery books to thank for my health, sanity, and on going spiritual and emotional growth.

I never went to meetings because leaving my house would be an issue. . .and then walking in to a meeting seemed like it might be too (I know I know, you've heard all the excuses before. You wouldn't BELIEVE the huge codie trap laying on my front doorstep haha). And without meetings, I can't make head nor tails of the steps!!

smynthia

In regards to the OP, I would have to say yes, and no in my experience. It seems to many, that "program" always seems to imply AA, partially because that is part of their dialouge. "Are you working your program?" "Are you in the program?"

I work a "program" for my sobriety, of my own design and choosing. It consists of utilizing some of the AA philosophies. I go to meetings when I need to, but I do not have a sponsor. I embrace some of the 12 steps, but do not fully embrace them all. I do agree with AA that success is built upon rigorous honesty and for me, continous self-reflection.

I read books about recovery and addiction, post open and honestly in SR, utilize daily prayer, meditation, and gratitude, work out, eat right and take care of my physical body. I have a workbook that I write in and complete honesty "assignments" about my addiction and recovery.

I look at my recovery as I do my spirituality. I always had a hard time because my spiritual beliefs do not follow that of the dominant culture. It is a bit of Christianity, sprinkled with metaphysics, Buddhism, this, that and the other. I explore, digest and then take what works best for me.

I think that people can decide to quit drinking on their own and have success, but in my experience, success is more likely if they have a personal support system in place. What that is and its success rate is up to the individual, not the program.

Boleo

I once read a story about an Irishmen (can't remember his name) who stayed sober over 20 years by wrapping tight chains around his waist, thighs and biceps (self-mortification).

This was in the 1800's before there were any recovery programs. He was famous in Ireland for being the only Irishmen to beat dipsomania (alcoholism).

Nawny

I think anything is possible! With or without outside help

joedris

I hate to jump into the middle of a good argument/discussion, but here goes. To begin with I question Dr. Wittenburgs statement in the N.Y. Times artices regarding short term dependicies on alcohol. You are either dependent or not dependent, and once dependent it's with you forever. Does the word "chronic" ring a bell? And his comments on effective medication for alcoholism treatment is a bit of "pie in the sky". There are currently 4 medications that the FDA has approved for alcoholism treatment, and none are very effective without a concurrent treatment program.

And please, everybody, be very careful of any statistical data regarding alcoholism success rates. The 5% rate for AA has been batted around for years, but you'll never get anyone from GSO to agree to it. AA itself will not comment on success rates because they don't know what the rates are. No one does. Hence the statement from the Big Book "Seldom have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Yes, AA sends around a tri-annual survey but it's a descriptive survey taking a snapshot of membership at the time the survey was taken. It's not a prescriptive survey from which probabilities and conclusions can be derived.

So is someone getting sober going to be more or less successful that someone in a support program? Who knows? There certainly are folks who have succeeded on their own and are to be applauded for their success. I wasn't one of them. I needed AA. So if you decide to try it on your own, good luck. I hope you have a good Plan B to fall back on.

bugsworth

Joe...I am sorry that you found that you could not achieve sobriety on your own and I am grateful that you found aa to be a good fit for you. However your parting comment....hoping that those who choose to not to use aa have a plan b is exceptionally condescending.
Regarding success rates...if aa had a decent one they would be shouting it from the roof tops...5% is a retention rate...only 5% of people who come to aa stay after a year. The statement that you quoted from the bb was printed long before the GSO or aa had surveys. It was an opinion...nothing more.

sfgirl

I'm glad this thread got brought back up because this is something that has been pissing me off lately and I need to vent. But please actually read these comments with some amount of empathy and try to imagine how it feels.

I did not get sober in AA. I have tried my butt off though. In fact it has been my full time job. I have read probably 5000+ pages on recovery over the past 10-11 months and keep ordering books. I read all sorts of books from 12 steps to Buddhist to more scientific to memoirs to histories. One of those books has not been the Big Book. I have a therapist I see two times a week. I have a psychiatrist. I take naltrexone every day; 50mg a day. I also take topamax for migraines but it may have effects on cravings. I go to Buddhist meditations usually recovery centered. And sometimes, on rare occasion, I go to an AA meeting. Now, I just started classes to be an alcohol and drug counselor. That is my recovery program. It is my own. It can change any moment. And it is solid.

Because I am in these classes, I am around a lot of recovering people IRL (in-real-life). Every single one seems to be a 12-stepper which is fine but I do feel marginalized and it is unfortunate. However, being in the minority is one thing, what is worse is when you tell them your story and the response is, "oh you didn't get sober in AA? you didn't go to rehab?" I say, "no." And then the woman replies, "well, then maybe you didn't cross into alcohol dependence, you probably just were in alcohol abuse." "Say what?!?!?!"

Or another woman who laughed at me in class when I said I had never shared at an AA meeting while trying to explain something to a non-recovering person. Later she pushed me saying you really need to share. I said to her, "well, since I said that I actually have shared but you don't understand I didn't get sober in AA, I don't go to AA, I have only ever been to six meetings total in my whole life." "Oh, well, you should share."

Or when I went to an AA meeting last weekend and as I was walking out I was talking to this guy and he said "what other meetings do you go to?" And I said, "none, really." And in a chiding, condescending voice he goes, "that is not good." I go, "no, it doesn't matter, I didn't get sober in AA." He asks, "how long do you have sober?" Me: "I don't know 10ish months" Him: "That is not good, not good, you need to be in the program."

Agh, f*ck you.

Sorry but that is how I feel. Your way or the highway? Your way or I am not a real alcoholic?

So we are out there— the people who got sober in other ways and the reason you don't meet us is probably because we are met with some not so nice comments and reactions to our experiences. I don't want to have to fight for my identity as a "real alcoholic." Please.

sfgirl

I don't understand countering Dr. Willenbring's definition of dependence. He is the research director of alcohol treatment at the NIAAA, it isn't like he is some quack. It may not be consistent with your personal experience but in his research he has probably seen it often. I also think if you imagine the loads of college students who binge drink through their early twenties and then stop that is a good example. Dependence is a medical term as defined by the DSM-IV (Alcohol Abuse and Dependence - Diagnosis - mentalhealthchannel).

That being said, I think Dr. Willenbring is really brilliant and says a lot of things that need to be said. I posted an article he wrote in Addiction Professional a few months back:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ic-debate.html

The reason that I enjoy what he has to say is the same reason that I think you have such an allegiance to AA— it matches my experience. I didn't get sober in AA because AA was not for me, the language of the Big Book was entirely too masculine, the shares in meetings are of bottoms I would never have known (jail, homelessness, etc), and the religion/spirituality was too in your face for someone who had grown up in a secular family and area. Over time, I have grown to appreciate AA but those aspects are still foreign and will forever remain so. Willenbring talks about things in my family. While completely loaded I graduated from an Ivy League university with a 3.7GPA, for awhile I had a job— I never was even five minutes late to (I am anally on-time probably more while using than now), I bought a house, didn't drive drunk (organized my life around not driving), etc. My bottom was inside not out. I don't even like that word bottom. Now my mother is starting to work on her drinking. She drinks at least two glasses of wine a day usually more but always under the guise of a good meal or a social event. It is going to be hard for her to cut back. I know this— I recommended she look into naltrexone. Does she have a problem? Yes. Is it the same alcoholism we always talk about on here? No. Is it a form of alcoholism? Most def. My grandfather's health is deteriorating, he drinks almost a bottle of wine a day. He is on massive amounts of pain killers and medications. He will not skip his alcohol. I think he would freak if we took it away. I have never in my life seen him drunk. Conversely I have never seen him not drink. I have seen him drink at breakfast. He is wildly productive and successful. Again, does he have a problem? Yes. Does it look exactly the same as everyone elses? No. So my question is doesn't everyone deserve help? I will answer it, YES.

joedris

Dear Bugsworth, I apologize if my comment about Plan B sounded condescending. It certainly wasn't meant to be. I take alchohollism and recovery very seriously. While I'm a proponent of AA, I also recognize that many people do get sober without it. I applaud them for having the ability to do that. And I despise the term "dry drunk" which is often used in referring to someone who got sober without using the AA program. Unfortunately, I've seen too many people over the years dismiss AA without having an alternative plan. And trying to conquer this disease without some sort of plan in mind is usually futile. I earnestly hope that anyone who wants to get sober is successful in doing so. Hence my comment.

As the the 5% figure, I've heard it applied to those who fail to stay in AA for a year, for those who attend a meeting and never return, and for those who stay in AA and reach 5 years of sobriety. I still encourage everyone to be very skeptical of any statistic concerning success and sobriety, regardless of how that sobriety is achieved. No really knows how many people are successful in getting and staying sober, and I doubt that there will ever be an accurate figure here. And believe me, AA will never shout anything from the rooftops. If you read the 12 Traditions of AA you'll understand why.

Dear sfgirl, My objection to Dr. Willengerg's comment stems from his contention that there's a condition of temporary dependence on alcohol. I'm familiar with the DSM-IV definition and would like to point out here that nowhere does DSM-IV indicate that dependence on alcohol can be a temporary condition. Alcoholism is not temporary. The AMA defines it as "a primary chronic disease...". The word "chronic" meaning permanent. And I agree that the doctor is an intelligent man, well qualified for his position in NIAA. But while it's possible that there may exist a condition of temporary dependence, the doctor is going to have to give some supporting documentation to back up his statement.

And lastly for Boleo. The Irishman your were referring to is Matt Talbot.

sfgirl

The data from which Willenbring got the info is NESARC or the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions which was a huge study (43,000 people). http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/703483



It is only defined as happening within a 12-month period. I am at the age where I knew a lot of people who partied super hard— did unbelievable things and suddenly are stopping. I didn't suddenly stop. I kept going harder and faster. My sister is one of those stoppers, she still has an occasional glass now and then but barely drinks. She used to black out weekly. You might argue they are not alcoholics; there certainly is a difference between those people and me and you. Why could they spontaneously stop and we couldn't? But they still did qualify for dependence during a period of time. I just think the NESARC data (most other studies of alcohol problems were solely of people in clinical settings, ie already with a "problem"— this was a real cross section of the country) sheds scientific light that alcohol abuse and dependence takes many guises.

joedris

Dear sfgirl, We're splitting hairs here. As you asked, Why could your friends spontaneously stop and we couldn't? It's because we're alcoholics and I will argue that they're not. I argue that they did not qualify as alcohol dependent for a period of time. They certainly qualified as alcohol abusers per DSM IV. But did they exhibit withdrawal symptoms or indicate a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down? They were successful in cutting down.

If you choose to believe that there exists a finite period of chemical dependency then by all means do so. We simply agree to disagree. But we're all in agreement (even my friend bugsworth) that the important thing here is that an alcoholic stop drinking. Whatever method or program they choose to accomplish this is irrevelant. I've always maintained that if howling at the moon will help keep you sober, then howl away.

People come to this site seeking help and advice. They certainly deserve to be offered different perspectives to their problems. I suggest AA. You and bugsworth and many others suggest alternative methods. We base our suggestions on what worked for us. Let the one asking for advice choose their approach. And let's all be supportive of any choice they make.

sfgirl

true, true

Boleo

I to got sober outside of AA. When my obsession was finally lifted I realized that what worked for me was I;

1. Admitted that I was licked
2. Appealed to my Higher-Power for help
3. Detached from my self-reliance
4. Turned my thoughts to helping others

Not exactly the 12 steps of AA but close. Close enough that I now participate in and support AA as a program of action.

kurtrambis

Chronic does not mean permanent it means long lasting. Alcoholism refers to the overconsumption of alcohol. nothing more nothing less. If you are not drinking you are not suffering from alcoholism. I think is very important point. This is the generally excepted medical definition which experts refer to when talking about alcoholism.

Something I found annoying in AA is people describing any mental illness as the ism of alcoholism. It encourages the one size fits all solution, it makes people reluctant to get specialized help as they believe everybody is suffering the same mental problem as everybody else. Even ones who don't have any mental health unless you call lack of discipline and selfishness a mental illness!

herennow

Hello
Well I think it may be my HP working today because I really needed to read this thread - everyone has so many good positive insightful tools to be shared! Needhappiness, I am approaching 5 yrs clean and sober on Nov 1/09. I have not entered treatment or a NA room in that time period - BUT - I do read the literature daily and have worked the steps to the best of my ability on my own. I am an addict - there isn't a doubt in my mind. I cannot say that your BF does or does not need a program to succeed. I can share what happens to me though if I "sway" from my own recovery. My thought process changes - it's that simple! I can only peak for myself but this has been the most challenging part of my recovery. What gets me back on track is the literature - BUT - I can tell you that I have been exploring my reasoning for NOT going to a meeting lately and this thread has proven that meetings DO HELP those who need them. The main thing that stops me is simply fear (for my family and profession) and I will post another thread to get more feedback on that later.
I hope this helps you - If your BF isn't oppose to reading the books I would suggest at least that much - to keep him grounded through the stormy weather of recovery - cause it can get really nasty at times (for me at least)!
Best of luck
xx

yeahgr8

Love this discussion.

I go to AA, my sponsor has 23 years sobriety, i would really love to explain to people that refuse to work the steps and go out again how to do get sober a different way, if anyone has say 15 years+ of sobriety and can outline how they did it on their own...i'm all ears;-)

I'm not having a go here, i just want to see how you did it? In fact if anyone personally knows of anyone with 15+ years of sobriety who did it by themselves then that will do, if you know the story:-)

joedris

Dear kurtrambis, I will concede the definition of chronic as long lasting, but let's also include the word "continuing". But alcoholism is not merely the overconsumption of alcohol. If that were the case, then the majority of people who drink would be considered alcoholics as most of them have overconsumed at some point in time. I would again refer to the AMA definition (which I argue is the generally accepted definition) of alcoholism which includes the words "continuous or periodic impaired control over drinking..." Alcoholics drink because they cannot not drink. They are physically and psychologically dependent on the drug alcohol.

Whether an alcoholic is drinking or not has no bearing on the existence of the disease. I'm an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in a long time but my doctor considers me to have the disease of alcoholism and writes prescriptions accordingly.

I do agree with you on the point of AA nazis and the isms mentality. It's unfortunate but a lot of the old timers in AA have a simplistic attitude of one size fits all. They're going to do things because that's the way they were taught. One thing I've learned over the years is that alcoholism affects everyone differently, and each alcoholic who walks through the doors is a unique individual with unique problems. It's sad that the nazi mentality turns so many people away. I guess I was lucky as my initial exposure had a good impression on me. I could have easily walked away disgusted, too.

sfgirl

Ask me in 14 years.

Seriously, this is the sort of statement that really irks me.

People have long-term sobriety outside of AA. The reason you don't hear about them is probably because you are hearing about your sponsor's sober birthday in an AA room. Why would someone who got sober in another way be in there? People get sober in so many different ways. A good book to read which outlines and tells the stories of I think 100+ people with long-term (5+, don't worry there are some in there with 15+) non-AA sobriety is Sober for Good by Anne Fletcher. It ranges from spontaneously stopping after years of trying, individual therapy, a combination of factors, etc.

This is not to knock AA either. Both can concurrently exist. It is a both/and statement. That is what irks me most. It isn't like, "I got sober outside of AA so AA is no longer valid." No, people get good, solid sobriety outside of AA. People get good, solid sobriety in AA. Conversely some people cannot get sober outside of AA. And some people cannot get sober in AA.

Dee74

I'll have a big ole thread when I get 5 years LOL

The more I go on, the more I realise my recovery model shares a lot of characteristics with a 12 step model.

I've accepted I cannot control alcohol, and I've accepted I cannot drink again (not without consequences).

I do a lot of service work - because it really isn't all about me - and I try my best to be rigourously honest with myself, and in my dealings with others.

I do these last things not because I might drink again if I don't, but because I want to be the best me I can be.

Personally, I think anybody who focuses purely on their alcoholism in recovery is missing out on a lot.

And anybody who thinks they have all the answers is, in my opinion, pretty much missing the point

D

notofeudalism

it is when you look at sentencing by courts that mandate AA and other stuff. The it becomes perfectly logical