Recovery without outside help....can it happen?

Old 08-17-2009, 06:07 PM
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I haven't read the whole thread (nor do I wish to -- what I've seen seems to be a debate-bordering-on-argument), Dee, but I wanted to comment on a couple of things in your last post.

Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post

Personally, I think anybody who focuses purely on their alcoholism in recovery is missing out on a lot.
Something else you'd find in a healthy 12 step fellowship is that those who have the most solid recovery find out very quickly that alcohol and/or (if you believe in and/or) drug consumption is but the very tip of the iceberg -- merely a symptom. If all it would do for me was keep me dry, I'd been back out on the streets a long time ago.

And anybody who thinks they have all the answers is, in my opinion, pretty much missing the point
"We know only a little" -- we are 100% in agreement there!

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Last edited by Sugah; 08-17-2009 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:11 PM
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I agree with you on both points Sugah

I wasn't having a shot at 12 step programmes with the quote you used for your first point, it's merely an attitude I've seen on the boards here from time to time

D
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
I wasn't having a shot at 12 step programmes with the quote you used for your first point, it's merely an attitude I've seen on the boards here from time to time

D
I'm witcha, Dee

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Old 08-17-2009, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sfgirl View Post
Seriously, this is the sort of statement that really irks me.
Please don't be irked at me though:-) I've met a couple of guys that have come from what seemed as an alcoholic pattern of drinking to abstaining from alcohol, one of them met the love of his life and that was enough to stop daily drinking...this was 8 years ago and as far as i know he is still a changed man. This does bring up the alcoholic or heard drinker question but that's already another thread somewhere i am sure!

I'm quite suprised no-one bought up a certain person on SR as an example, the one with the picture of her beautiful cats as her avatar!

Dee i do agree that if you focus on the alcoholism then you are going to miss out on life, if you focus on your sobriety then you won't...kind of like live in the solution, not in the problem...another AA gem there just for you hehe

Personally i don't care what anyone does as long as they work and achieve the sober life they deserve, my experience is that nothing else worked for me but AA does...my view is that i don't want another person to waste the time i did trying everything else, but then again we could argue is that person ready until they are really ready...again probably another thread somewhere on SR:-)
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sfgirl View Post
This is not to knock AA either. Both can concurrently exist. It is a both/and statement. That is what irks me most. It isn't like, "I got sober outside of AA so AA is no longer valid." No, people get good, solid sobriety outside of AA. People get good, solid sobriety in AA. Conversely some people cannot get sober outside of AA. And some people cannot get sober in AA.
I agree with all of this, sfgirl, except the part I bolded. I work with a lot of newcomers, and I'm pretty in the loop when a new guy comes in. Those that work the steps thoroughly do recover with almost no exceptions. I can't speak with any authority at all on those that stay sober without being in AA. I have little opportunity to be around them. But, AA is a little microcosm of the recovery population. I get to observe people at all points along the spectrum in that small world. Those that work the steps recover. Those that hang around and try to stay sober on their own, even while showing up for meetings, tend to hang around for a few months or a year, and disappear. Then they show up again a year later.

Please don't take this is a defense of AA. I have no need to defend it. If someone finds that they just can't stay sober doing what they are doing, or they've exhausted all their options, or they are just plain miserable being sober, AA offers a solution that will work for them.

I find serious joy and a revolutionary change in my approach to life by living by those AA principles. I believe that same thing is available to anyone who sincerely wants it and is willing to work for it. It doesn't mean you can't find it outside of AA. It just means that if you can't find it, AA has a solution.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:31 AM
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I think whether you can stop drinking without a programme depends on how dependant to alcohol you actually are. I see weekend drunks comming into AA, and I see those addicted to pubs (not alcohol) comming into AA; and fair enough they can stop drinking without a programme and as long as they have a desire to stop drinking everyone is welcome.

Those types of drinkers don't need the steps; some coffee, company and a bit of peer pressure is good enough for them to stop drinking.

But me? I had a million-and-one good reasons not to drink, I tried everything humanly possible to stop and I just couldn't for some reason. I'm not soft; I was a good soldier for 17 years and boxer and considered myself a bit of a tough guy; yet I could not conquer my addiction to alcohol.

I truly believe that if you're a fully fledged alcoholic, the only solution is a spiritual one that'll radically change your mentality (it changes you for the better too). And if you've never had a spiritual experience, then that's a shame; honest.

If this forum could've stopped me from drinking, my sobriety date would've been three years ago; instead of the four months it is now, but I'm full of praise for this forum, since the AA seed must've been planted in my brain; it just took a long time to grow from the mess it was deposited into.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:53 AM
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I got sober w/o a formal program but being sober and being recovered are 2 different things. After I got sober I began working with a professional group that has their own AA alternative it is based completely on AA but only open to members of a particular profession. I only attend their meetings once a year but I handle all the paperwork as the State refers people to the group when they are applying for a license in the profession and they have a police record for something that indicates substance abuse or mental health issues. My involvement with this group has helped me recover. Even more importantly my involvement in my church has helped me recover. And now after nearly 2 yrs sober I am going to start going to AA to help others because that I believe is the most important part of recovery.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jamdls View Post
And now after nearly 2 yrs sober I am going to start going to AA to help others because that I believe is the most important part of recovery.
That is our primary purpose.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:32 AM
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l have seen alcoholics recover without help.
Not a lot, but it can be done.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by keithj View Post
I agree with all of this, sfgirl, except the part I bolded. I work with a lot of newcomers, and I'm pretty in the loop when a new guy comes in. Those that work the steps thoroughly do recover with almost no exceptions. I can't speak with any authority at all on those that stay sober without being in AA. I have little opportunity to be around them. But, AA is a little microcosm of the recovery population. I get to observe people at all points along the spectrum in that small world. Those that work the steps recover. Those that hang around and try to stay sober on their own, even while showing up for meetings, tend to hang around for a few months or a year, and disappear. Then they show up again a year later.
The part bolded was:

And some people cannot get sober in AA
I was unwilling to even go to AA. Again the reasons were the language of the Big Book was entirely geared towards men and had significant parts that did not speak to me; I was sexually abused many times (PTSD) and meetings are 70+% men; The first time I went to a meeting a man I did not know or want to know hugged me inappropriately— not okay— when you are raw you should not have to worry so hard about setting boundaries; I grew up in secular family and area, it was too religious in nature (while it is spiritual, its rituals make it seem religious); I'm not a joiner, never have been, I do things on my own. So that is why I was not going to get sober in AA. And please don't try to counter every single point. I have a right to have a treatment that works for me and I found it.

Once one gets inside the rooms, I understand there may be a discrepancy between people who walk the walk and people who just sit around. I think the 12 steps are powerful and I adopted them a lot in my own recovery work. However, to think that they are for every single person in the exact way that AA dishes them out is not correct. I think that AA's existence has enhanced alcohol treatment because it has added a spiritual aspect. I would never have thought to think about those things in my own recovery if it had not been for AA, and I am grateful for that because I realize how lacking it is in our society— this is a problem. However, I will say it again, the rooms are not for everyone, and I don't think this is an arguable statement. If you want proof, which I don't think you should need, here I am.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:19 AM
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sfgirl,

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with AA, and no-one should argue that AA is the only way to recovery; it's in our traditions that we accept there are other methods.

And with regards to AA being 'male heavy', I also understand that is a problem, particularly when it comes to find strong female sponsorship (which is a problem my homegroup has; but is widespread; so I've read).

But if you're working a programme that has elements of spirituallity* in it then that's great and will work. Originally the Big Book was designed to be a stand alone item of recovery; there weren't widespread meetings all over the World when it was written.

I do find it a shame you can't share in the Fellowship though; I really enjoy that; but the spiritual programme is the most important part. But should you wish to reconsider AA, I'm sure if you contacted AA, they could get a female to get in touch with you personally and keep you safe at your first meetings till you feel more comfortable. They could here in the UK I'm sure.

*I'm currently reading a book on Budhism and you'd be surprised at the similarity between the principles of Budhism and the AA spiritual principles.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:28 AM
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I live in San Francisco and actually go to AA meetings now that I am more recovered and more over the men stuff. I also go to all female meetings. The AA groups are actually quite clicky though and now the irony is that I find it easier to penetrate the coed groups than the all-female groups because for some reason I had a really hard time breaking the ice with the all-female group. With the men, they approach me at least, it does make it easier. But still San Francisco AA meetings have a closed vibe. I went to an AA meeting in Hawaii and that was the best one I have ever been to, not in terms of the shares, but in terms of how damn nice and open everyone was, and the fact that it was outside under a Banyan tree. I must admit that sometimes I do get slightly jealous of fellowship but again I am finding it hard to penetrate. It actually was the topic of people's shares the other night at this huge, too-cool-for-school saturday night meeting. But my actual point was that there are tons of resources here.

Anyways, there are lots of Buddhist recovery events in SF. There is even a year long Buddhist recovery Sangha class/group. Kevin Griffin, the author of One Breath at a Time is speaking a block from my house in a month on the 12th step I think. So I am actually pretty into that stuff.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:31 AM
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You make a good point, sfgirl. That is a different meaning of "some people can not get sober in AA" than I was seeing.
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:03 PM
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I think had this question been asked 10+ years ago the answers might be different. Of course recovery is possible without outside help....google, the wonderful invention that it is, will attest to that. LOL There are thousands upon thousands of people on the net that share their story of recovery...many don't include aa, smart, lifering or any other program. Times are changing...in the couple of short years I have been sober the dynamics surrounding recovery have taken a turn...people are speaking up and out about their addictions and offering hope to the masses that there are as many paths to sobriety as there are people to walk them. There never has been nor never will be one way or the right way....it simply boils down to your way.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by joedris View Post
Dear kurtrambis, I will concede the definition of chronic as long lasting, but let's also include the word "continuing". But alcoholism is not merely the overconsumption of alcohol. If that were the case, then the majority of people who drink would be considered alcoholics as most of them have overconsumed at some point in time. I would again refer to the AMA definition (which I argue is the generally accepted definition) of alcoholism which includes the words "continuous or periodic impaired control over drinking..." Alcoholics drink because they cannot not drink. They are physically and psychologically dependent on the drug alcohol.
Yes I agree Joe getting drunk the odd time doesn't make you an alcoholic

Originally Posted by joedris View Post

Whether an alcoholic is drinking or not has no bearing on the existence of the disease. I'm an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in a long time but my doctor considers me to have the disease of alcoholism and writes prescriptions accordingly.
Well as you probably know Joe whether alcoholism is a disease or not is debatable even amongst the professionals, but that's another thread. I can understand that calling yourself an alcoholic for the rest of your life my help you abstain. But if you haven't drank alcohol for a number of years I don't see anything wrong with somebody calling themselves an ex alcoholic just like other addicts call themselves ex smokers, ex drug addicts etc. Also my local addiction team doesn't label people as alcoholics. each to their own.


Originally Posted by joedris View Post

I do agree with you on the point of AA nazis and the isms mentality. It's unfortunate but a lot of the old timers in AA have a simplistic attitude of one size fits all. They're going to do things because that's the way they were taught. One thing I've learned over the years is that alcoholism affects everyone differently, and each alcoholic who walks through the doors is a unique individual with unique problems. It's sad that the nazi mentality turns so many people away. I guess I was lucky as my initial exposure had a good impression on me. I could have easily walked away disgusted, too.
Its not just so called AA nazis share this view its most of the kind people in AA aswell. Who taught the old timers you talk about where are they getting their ideas from. The Big book. That's the problem, not the people in AA but the big book.
If I actually believed everything in the big book I would share the exact same views as them, fortunately I don't.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by keithj View Post
I agree with all of this, sfgirl, except the part I bolded. I work with a lot of newcomers, and I'm pretty in the loop when a new guy comes in. Those that work the steps thoroughly do recover with almost no exceptions. I can't speak with any authority at all on those that stay sober without being in AA. I have little opportunity to be around them. But, AA is a little microcosm of the recovery population. I get to observe people at all points along the spectrum in that small world. Those that work the steps recover. Those that hang around and try to stay sober on their own, even while showing up for meetings, tend to hang around for a few months or a year, and disappear. Then they show up again a year later.

Please don't take this is a defense of AA. I have no need to defend it. If someone finds that they just can't stay sober doing what they are doing, or they've exhausted all their options, or they are just plain miserable being sober, AA offers a solution that will work for them.

I find serious joy and a revolutionary change in my approach to life by living by those AA principles. I believe that same thing is available to anyone who sincerely wants it and is willing to work for it. It doesn't mean you can't find it outside of AA. It just means that if you can't find it, AA has a solution.
I cannot get sober by doing the 12 steps is I am an atheist/agnostic.
I suffer from depression, I self medicate with alcohol. 12 steps and big book actually aggravates my depression therefore its counter productive to me personally.

In my time in AA:
I have heard people tell stories of people who have done the 12 steps been sponsors and have gone back drinking.
I personally know people who have done the steps and gone back drinking
I also know people who have been all gung ho about the steps, have not done them but are working towards them who have gone back drinking. 12 steps is far from perfect.

Aswell I have never known of anyone do the steps under 12 months. Infact I have known people who take years. The fact that they are able to abstain for long enough to complete the steps shows their commitment to sobriety which is, IMO, the real driving force behind long term sobriety.

I think there should be more emphasis on motivational therapy getting somebody to the point of being willing being positive about recovery which you can get from good AA groups. Some can be defeatist and negative, that's why I believe its good to shop around. Ultimately it up to the individual.

Edit: bugs like it 'alcoholism is a disease of choice one you catch from open bottles'. reckon it sorts out the disease/choice debate, its both and everybody is happy
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis View Post
I think there should be more emphasis on motivational therapy getting somebody to the point of being willing
It is interesting to me that most of treatment has to do with people after they have made the choice to get sober. It seems to me that the most crucial time in any addicts life is that contemplation stage where someone is contemplating abstinence. I think success in recovery has so much to do with the willingness with which someone goes into recovery (I actually might be really wrong here because I had a teacher who said that he found in his treatment center the rates of recovery for mandated people and self-reporters were about equal which I found really interesting and contrary to what I would think— but then there was the issue of risk of losing job-some were NFL players with million dollar contracts, some transport workers— for the mandated and what does success for three months mean or one year, what is rate after five? these were all his questions which he did not really elaborate on). But motivation is so important, if people would focus on getting people over that hump from using to being motivated to change, I don't believe in letting people find their bottom, and there could be strides made there that would be awesome. I do think listening to experiences in AA and identifying with them helps because then you can identify as an alcoholic and I know there are tons of studies to support motivational interviewing but it just seems absurd that you get thrown out of treatment for using, isn't that just your disease acting out? There probably should be different levels of treatment.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:18 PM
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Okay, okay...I know I shouldn't...but....



Originally Posted by yeahgr8 View Post
my view is that i don't want another person to waste the time i did trying everything else


You stopped looking because you found something that worked for you. That's what everyone does. We all swear by the particular methods we use because after a certain point we knew we didn't have to search anymore.


What was a waste of time for you might be the right way for someone else.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:27 PM
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Oh, yeah....I'm an absolute 100% atheist. I do not have a spirit or spirituality. Those concepts don’t make sense to me and do not apply at all in my recovery. It works for many people, but it is not necessary for me in order to live a fulfilling sober life.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:53 PM
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i've never been to AA,it sounds like a waste of time to me... but what do i know.. ive never tried to quit anyway
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