Recovery without outside help....can it happen?
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chepstow
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Originally Posted by liquidfireangel 
i've never been to AA,it sounds like a waste of time to me... but what do i know.. ive never tried to quit anyway
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
Herbert Spencer
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
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It's really important, if we want to keep this place the way it is, that we continue to respect other people's programmes
Thanks 
D
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 818
I've found that discussing recovery rates in or out of AA is like walking through a minefield. The only people I'm aware of that will proclaim successful recovery rates are those who run treatment centers. And they do that to attract new clients as well as impress insurance companies who end up paying for treatment. The problem, you see, is that it's a damn impossible thing to measure. What do we mean by recovery? And how do we measure success in recovery? There's no commonly accepted answer to these questions, so anyone who wants to throw out a statistic (however well published) does so using their own criteria for measurement.
Over the years I've heard success rates of AA to run anywhere from 5% to 30%, but these figures come from whoever's doing the study using whatever measuring criteria they choose. AA will never discuss recovery percentages. GSO acknowledges that there's no way to measure it. The standard response from GSO is "seldom have we seen a person fail...." While GSO does conduct a triannual survery of select home groups, it's a descriptive rather than prescriptive look at AA membership. It's merely a snapshot of AA membership at that time. If you go to aa.org you can view the last survey, done in 2007. You'll see that there's no analysis or predictive conclusions draw from the survey.
As for the rest of the claims to success of different approaches/programs out there, I take them with a dose of salt. AA has been around for 74 years, so it must be doing a few things right. But as Bill Wilson said, AA has no monopoly on sobriety. So if you're not successful with the program, try something else.
But let me emphasize that the success of your personal recovery depends 100% on you, not on any program. And how you measure your own success is up to you. I measure mine by staying sober today. So today I've been successful. I'll face tomorrow when it gets here.
Over the years I've heard success rates of AA to run anywhere from 5% to 30%, but these figures come from whoever's doing the study using whatever measuring criteria they choose. AA will never discuss recovery percentages. GSO acknowledges that there's no way to measure it. The standard response from GSO is "seldom have we seen a person fail...." While GSO does conduct a triannual survery of select home groups, it's a descriptive rather than prescriptive look at AA membership. It's merely a snapshot of AA membership at that time. If you go to aa.org you can view the last survey, done in 2007. You'll see that there's no analysis or predictive conclusions draw from the survey.
As for the rest of the claims to success of different approaches/programs out there, I take them with a dose of salt. AA has been around for 74 years, so it must be doing a few things right. But as Bill Wilson said, AA has no monopoly on sobriety. So if you're not successful with the program, try something else.
But let me emphasize that the success of your personal recovery depends 100% on you, not on any program. And how you measure your own success is up to you. I measure mine by staying sober today. So today I've been successful. I'll face tomorrow when it gets here.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
The frequent debates here on SR that take a wide variety of topics and boil them down to the either/or AA debate..... it gets a little tiring!
In answer to the original question, yes, I know two people who quit drinking without a program. Any kind of program. One has 19 years of sobriety this year, the other I've lost contact with, but he had about 10 years when I knew him.
I can completely understand the frustration of people achieving success outside of AA when their success and/or the "validity" of their alcoholism is questioned.
My views are very similar to sfgirls in that I am drawing from a variety of sources for my recovery. I think however that I am also in a unique situation. I live in Sweden and take advantage of an outpatient rehab center that is cost free (if you consider the tax rate here, "free" is a word with some retainers) and that includes a variety of medications made available, including naltrexone plus individual and/or group therapy plus doctor care and lab services. The addiction recovery care system is widely used here and it is the receptor for patients that would otherwise end up in court appointed AA programs if they were in the states.
I think the AA system here differs in a few respects, the important aspect that people are never court appointed to attend AA meetings here. I can't help but think that makes a difference: everyone coming into AA wants to be there, no one has been sent there. Add to that a somewhat mild approach to religion in general among the general population and you have a highly secular attitude in AA meetings.
There isn't an attitude here that it has to be "either/or". My therapist and physician at my rehab center encourage and support AA but they have the view that they are also providing their patients with a successful program, IF their patients are committed to do the work.
My sponsor at AA knows I continue to use my rehab center, she respects their methods and and she does not give me the ultimatum that I must choose AA or my rehab center.
So, it is interesting to see that people here seem to be suggesting that it has to be one or the other. I am experiencing the reality of one AND the other and I feel extremely grateful to have both.
I want to stay sober, so I use anything within my means and available to me to do so.
In answer to the original question, yes, I know two people who quit drinking without a program. Any kind of program. One has 19 years of sobriety this year, the other I've lost contact with, but he had about 10 years when I knew him.
I can completely understand the frustration of people achieving success outside of AA when their success and/or the "validity" of their alcoholism is questioned.
My views are very similar to sfgirls in that I am drawing from a variety of sources for my recovery. I think however that I am also in a unique situation. I live in Sweden and take advantage of an outpatient rehab center that is cost free (if you consider the tax rate here, "free" is a word with some retainers) and that includes a variety of medications made available, including naltrexone plus individual and/or group therapy plus doctor care and lab services. The addiction recovery care system is widely used here and it is the receptor for patients that would otherwise end up in court appointed AA programs if they were in the states.
I think the AA system here differs in a few respects, the important aspect that people are never court appointed to attend AA meetings here. I can't help but think that makes a difference: everyone coming into AA wants to be there, no one has been sent there. Add to that a somewhat mild approach to religion in general among the general population and you have a highly secular attitude in AA meetings.
There isn't an attitude here that it has to be "either/or". My therapist and physician at my rehab center encourage and support AA but they have the view that they are also providing their patients with a successful program, IF their patients are committed to do the work.
My sponsor at AA knows I continue to use my rehab center, she respects their methods and and she does not give me the ultimatum that I must choose AA or my rehab center.
So, it is interesting to see that people here seem to be suggesting that it has to be one or the other. I am experiencing the reality of one AND the other and I feel extremely grateful to have both.
I want to stay sober, so I use anything within my means and available to me to do so.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 12
an interesting thread and one where I find myself in agreement with many who've disagreed with me elsewhere 
To answer the original poster, I'd say the following:
Yes, I think it is possible, but like any method of conquering an addiction it will be hard work and need commitment and resolve on behalf of the addict. I think the purpose of a recovery program (of whatever nature) is to define a roadmap and provide support towards a recovery. What the exact route and mechanisms of support are will vary from program to program - and some will be unpalatable to some people. Some will have uphill stretches at different points to others, some will have longer routes.
I personally don't like the way some AA people proclaim (something approaching) "100% success as long as you follow the steps thoroughly" as it seems a circular definition to me. That doesn't invalidate the approach though - it just shows that getting recovered is hard work. Maybe some other programs are less hard work for some people, but harder for other people
littlefish - I was interested in what you said about the Swedish model. Do you know what protocol(s) they supply naltrexone under?
a) given while abstinent to prevent cravings
b) given while drinking to assist in quitting/moderating
I ask because I know they use the latter protocol extensively in Finland - which I appreciate is a different culture and language, but is at least geographically close!
To answer the original poster, I'd say the following:
Yes, I think it is possible, but like any method of conquering an addiction it will be hard work and need commitment and resolve on behalf of the addict. I think the purpose of a recovery program (of whatever nature) is to define a roadmap and provide support towards a recovery. What the exact route and mechanisms of support are will vary from program to program - and some will be unpalatable to some people. Some will have uphill stretches at different points to others, some will have longer routes.
I personally don't like the way some AA people proclaim (something approaching) "100% success as long as you follow the steps thoroughly" as it seems a circular definition to me. That doesn't invalidate the approach though - it just shows that getting recovered is hard work. Maybe some other programs are less hard work for some people, but harder for other people
littlefish - I was interested in what you said about the Swedish model. Do you know what protocol(s) they supply naltrexone under?
a) given while abstinent to prevent cravings
b) given while drinking to assist in quitting/moderating
I ask because I know they use the latter protocol extensively in Finland - which I appreciate is a different culture and language, but is at least geographically close!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by Boleo
I once read a story about an Irishmen (can't remember his name) who stayed sober over 20 years by wrapping tight chains around his waist, thighs and biceps (self-mortification).
This was in the 1800's before there were any recovery programs. He was famous in Ireland for being the only Irishmen to beat dipsomania (alcoholism).
This was in the 1800's before there were any recovery programs. He was famous in Ireland for being the only Irishmen to beat dipsomania (alcoholism).
Matt Talbot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
you might want to consider your last sentence too, as it is more than a little insulting to those of irish descent.
If I said "X was famous as the first black man to beat crack addiction" I'd (rightly) expect to be pilloried.
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
littlefish - I was interested in what you said about the Swedish model. Do you know what protocol(s) they supply naltrexone under?
a) given while abstinent to prevent cravings
b) given while drinking to assist in quitting/moderating
I ask because I know they use the latter protocol extensively in Finland - which I appreciate is a different culture and language, but is at least geographically close!
a) given while abstinent to prevent cravings
b) given while drinking to assist in quitting/moderating
I ask because I know they use the latter protocol extensively in Finland - which I appreciate is a different culture and language, but is at least geographically close!
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by liquidfireangel
whatever... AA is for quitters
thank God
i'm a quitter !!!! that has such a nice ring to it !!!!
Last edited by barrylane; 09-17-2009 at 01:26 PM. Reason: i want to track the thread
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
Posts: 1,417
If, by the term "Program", do we mean "Go to Meetings"?
It is a fact that we can take the steps and get sober through the principles of AA without ever setting foot in a meeting. Just as we can sit in meetings every day of the week and never do the program. In the same manner we can worship God and follow The Ten Commandments without going to church. Does not going to Church make us any less children of God?
The "Program" of Alcoholics Anonymous is not a place to go for cheap coffee and good conversation. It is a way to live your life. Damn the meetings if that's what is causing people to avoid A.A.
It's still a good book and an excellent way to live your life.
It is a fact that we can take the steps and get sober through the principles of AA without ever setting foot in a meeting. Just as we can sit in meetings every day of the week and never do the program. In the same manner we can worship God and follow The Ten Commandments without going to church. Does not going to Church make us any less children of God?
The "Program" of Alcoholics Anonymous is not a place to go for cheap coffee and good conversation. It is a way to live your life. Damn the meetings if that's what is causing people to avoid A.A.
It's still a good book and an excellent way to live your life.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
If, by the term "Program", do we mean "Go to Meetings"?
It is a fact that we can take the steps and get sober through the principles of AA without ever setting foot in a meeting. Just as we can sit in meetings every day of the week and never do the program. In the same manner we can worship God and follow The Ten Commandments without going to church. Does not going to Church make us any less children of God?
The "Program" of Alcoholics Anonymous is not a place to go for cheap coffee and good conversation. It is a way to live your life. Damn the meetings if that's what is causing people to avoid A.A.
It's still a good book and an excellent way to live your life.
It is a fact that we can take the steps and get sober through the principles of AA without ever setting foot in a meeting. Just as we can sit in meetings every day of the week and never do the program. In the same manner we can worship God and follow The Ten Commandments without going to church. Does not going to Church make us any less children of God?
The "Program" of Alcoholics Anonymous is not a place to go for cheap coffee and good conversation. It is a way to live your life. Damn the meetings if that's what is causing people to avoid A.A.
It's still a good book and an excellent way to live your life.
You've brought up an interesting point Pinkcuda.
Hmm, for me....although the AA literature is a great guide for staying sober, the comments people have made in AA meetings have been invaluable for me.
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by NeedHappiness
He has amazed me so far because he doesn't show any signs of a dry-drunk, nor has his attitude or personality turned nasty from cravings.
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: England
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Pinkcuda
If, by the term "Program", do we mean "Go to Meetings"?
It is a fact that we can take the steps and get sober through the principles of AA without ever setting foot in a meeting... Damn the meetings if that's what is causing people to avoid A.A.
It's still a good book and an excellent way to live your life.
It is a fact that we can take the steps and get sober through the principles of AA without ever setting foot in a meeting... Damn the meetings if that's what is causing people to avoid A.A.
It's still a good book and an excellent way to live your life.
It all makes sense to me BUT
I don't enjoy meetings. I resented having to spend all my waking hours thinking about alcohol. Does this mean I don't take recovery seriously? I hope not.I wish I did enjoy, or could at least tolerate, meetings. I've tried lots of different ones. I resent having to sit there for 1 and a half hours when I could be diggin the allotment or going for a walk.
I don't mean this to offend anyone. The people I met in Aa have got what I want!!!
Is it just me? What do others' do?
Thanks
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 271
Originally Posted by lulamay
Is it just me? What do others' do?
Thanks
Thanks
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The beautiful Midwest
Posts: 202
Thanks for all the replies and discussion about my question.
I am sad to report though, that after 110 days of sobriety, my ABF has fallen off the wagon. He was so drunk Friday night that he could barely speak! I was devastated when he called me!! Sat-Mon.......no drinking. Last night, drunk again.
I am besides myself now and to the point of not caring anymore. I think a split is going to happen again, as I cannot mentally handle it anymore.
I am sad to report though, that after 110 days of sobriety, my ABF has fallen off the wagon. He was so drunk Friday night that he could barely speak! I was devastated when he called me!! Sat-Mon.......no drinking. Last night, drunk again.
I am besides myself now and to the point of not caring anymore. I think a split is going to happen again, as I cannot mentally handle it anymore.
The New Me starting 1/11/09
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: California
Posts: 678
NeedHappiness - My view is that a person who is an alcoholic must develop the life tools to resolve their problems (stress, anxiety, fear, anger, whatever) for which alcohol is their solution. I think that some people have a personality which naturally allows them to do this without a program (but from anecdotal evidence, there aren't many of those people). I suspect that many of those people just grow out of their alcohol abuse stage (like most college students) and become normal drinkers.
But, I am defining "program" pretty broadly here. For some it is AA (like me), but for others there are non-AA 12 step program, actively posting on SR, etc. They key is that you can't just not drink and do nothing else. From our experiences, it doesn't work too well for most.
Since alcoholism is progressive, it continues to get worse, and can get to a point where a person cannot ever drink. I believe that a person should try moderation first (e.g. set specific goals for the number of drinks that they will have and then be honest about how they did). If they are successful and can continue to drink at this level, then ok, fine. But, for an alcoholic, there is no way that they can do this. So, with this knoweldge in hand (that moderation didn't work), then they must accept that they are alcoholic.
Once they are alcoholic, then they must work on the root cause problems and not get complacent and listen to the voices in their head saying that they can drink again. Whatever "program" they choose to do this is up to them - as long as it is helping them to not drink.
I wish you the best.
But, I am defining "program" pretty broadly here. For some it is AA (like me), but for others there are non-AA 12 step program, actively posting on SR, etc. They key is that you can't just not drink and do nothing else. From our experiences, it doesn't work too well for most.
Since alcoholism is progressive, it continues to get worse, and can get to a point where a person cannot ever drink. I believe that a person should try moderation first (e.g. set specific goals for the number of drinks that they will have and then be honest about how they did). If they are successful and can continue to drink at this level, then ok, fine. But, for an alcoholic, there is no way that they can do this. So, with this knoweldge in hand (that moderation didn't work), then they must accept that they are alcoholic.
Once they are alcoholic, then they must work on the root cause problems and not get complacent and listen to the voices in their head saying that they can drink again. Whatever "program" they choose to do this is up to them - as long as it is helping them to not drink.
I wish you the best.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Heywood,Gtr.Manchester
Posts: 242
Very puzzled.
661 days ago, courtesy of the Sober Time clock, I had a,'spitritual' experience resulting in the fact that not only my that my addiction to alcohol was removed but I cannot imbibe any alcohol for now my mind and body reject it completly. No other person has been involved in this event, I am still getting mentally and physically better day by day and am not complacent but to a certain extent , working on the basis of,'if a wheel ain't broke, don't fix it'at times I am still puzzled although I have no intention of falling into any retrogressive groove,(See, 'The Keys to the Kingdom, p.268 of the,'Big Book'.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: England
Posts: 89
Hi 43395,
I'm so glad to hear that you have clocked up 2 years of sobriety.
Do you go to AA? I'd like to hear more of your story.
I read about spontaneous recovery but never quite believe that it could be true. Is there more to it?
I'm so glad to hear that you have clocked up 2 years of sobriety.
Do you go to AA? I'd like to hear more of your story.
I read about spontaneous recovery but never quite believe that it could be true. Is there more to it?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Heywood,Gtr.Manchester
Posts: 242
A 'psychic change'
If a person is drinking heavily enough and is perhaps, alcohol dependent, as it says in the ,'Big Book' some life changing event, falling in love, a new job etc. can bring about sobriety, but and there's is unfortunately always buts if that person is a,'real alcoholic' and therefore suffers from, Alcohol-ISM such change is unlikely to occur.
Alcohol is but a symptom, it's the -ISM's that cause the problem, accepting the fact that alcoholics are physically,( they don't digest alchol at the same rate as ,'normal social drinkers) the acetone doesn't break down the carbohydrates, the acetone builds up, so does the craving, and before you know it, the vicious cycle of drinking kicks in and you're back where you started from, the aging factor will eventually make it much worse.
But if ,'the wheel ain't broken, don't fix it!' let him be his sober self, may be there will be new horizons for both of you.:praying
Alcohol is but a symptom, it's the -ISM's that cause the problem, accepting the fact that alcoholics are physically,( they don't digest alchol at the same rate as ,'normal social drinkers) the acetone doesn't break down the carbohydrates, the acetone builds up, so does the craving, and before you know it, the vicious cycle of drinking kicks in and you're back where you started from, the aging factor will eventually make it much worse.
But if ,'the wheel ain't broken, don't fix it!' let him be his sober self, may be there will be new horizons for both of you.:praying
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