NeedHappiness

I used to post on the family and friends of A's area but thought I might get some feedback from here too.
My BF and I have been together for 4 years on and off. His alcohol addiction is what broke us up several times. This past episode we were broken up for a year and he decided he would do "whatever it takes" to get back together. I told him that the number one thing is that the drinking would have to STOP! Well, it did, and that was 18 days ago. He is doing very well with it and he says he CAN do this.
My question to you is: Is it possible for him to actually QUIT all together and not be in any type of program, counciling or treatmenmt of any kind? He has amazed me so far because he doesn't show any signs of a dry-drunk, nor has his attitude or personality turned nasty from cravings. I really don't know WHAT to think. I will tell you that I have found a whole new love for this man since he is so determined to feel better now!
Please feel free to give me any and all input from you recovering/recovered A's. I appreciate all responses.

thank you
allison

mistycshore

Statistically, the success rate of any program does not exceed that of "spontaneous remission," people who stop drinking without outside help. Your doubt in his ability to quit can't be good for him though.

keithj

NeedHapiness,

It's really impossible to say. I'd bet that the folks over on the F&F forum would give you a lot bleaker picture, but without knowing something about his drinking, about how far down the scale he is, anyone is just taking blind guesses.

You know this much, right. He has a good reason to stop drinking in getting the relationship patched up. For alcoholics like me, that reason is far from sufficient to stop. I do know dozens of alcoholics who thought they could stop because of relationship trouble, and subsequently failed over and over. They were even sincere in that belief and desire.

You also know that his alcohol problem has broken you up in the past. What has changed? 18 days is no indication one way or the other. Neither is his mood for those 18 days. Really, all you have is a promise, albeit a sincere one.

This might be a case of wait and see. A quality relationship should be worth taking it slow and easy and seeing where it goes. See how he does.

bugsworth

NeedHappiness...I agree with Keith...only time will reveal the truth. 18 days is still quite early but is a huge step in the right direction. Many people do quit without any type of "program" and are highly successful in maintaining their commitment to a life of sobriety.
There are numerous articles written about this subject and many of them conclude that most people do eventually quit without the aid of formal programs. I believe that it all boils down to the individual. I wish you and your BF much happiness.

Pinkcuda

I concur! It happens all the time.

Boleo

MANY? Maybe, if you call a "Spontaneous Remission" rate of 1 in 20 MANY.

Most? Far from it. A "Spontaneous Remission" rate of 1 in 20
means 19 in 20 fail.

Wolfchild

If it will not cause any problems with personalities or privacy, why not
suggest to him that he register for membership to the SR community?

mistycshore

But the rates are the same across the board. Many people find sobriety in AA, about 5%, or 1 in 20. It's hard to know what "most" means, but I'm guessing it means "most of the people who remain abstained from alcohol." Of course, some people never recover.

Anna

Of course, people do stop drinking and recover without a specific program.

I have used boolks and SR and have been in recovery for a long time.

keithj

I want to leave this alone because you've been so nice, mistycshore, but I can't in good conscience. I feel it's extremely misleading and does harm to someone seeking help. The "rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" is still applicable today.

If I believe that no program is any better than 'spontaneous remission', then there is absolutely no point in having treatment centers, AA, SMART, this website, support groups, etc. With that viewpoint, the only thing a recovered person has to offer is "good luck". My experience runs counter to that.

Personally, I tried quitting by will power a day at a time, the doctor/anti-depressant route, counselling, outpatient treatment, inpatient rehab, and AA w/o the steps. I had brief times of sobriety and always went back to drinking. When I took AA's 12 steps, I recovered. The obsession to drink was removed and I live a life beyond my expectations. That's my personal experience.

But I also have experience in working with others. It's not scientific by any means, but it's a starting point based on my own experience. In the past year, 3 guys I've worked with have made it all the way through the 12 steps. 2 of them have recently celebrated a year sober, and the other has 10 months or so. Not a certainty that any of them will stay sober long term, but I think they are in pretty good shape if they continue to practice the principles. I belive that because in other years, other guys I've worked with that have made it throught the 12 steps are still sober. Every single one of them. Of the subset of guys I've worked with who have made it through all 12 steps, every single one of them is still sober. That's a 100% success rate and jives with the rarely have we seen a person fail.

Let me clarify that I don't do anything special. I just help them take the 12 steps like I was helped. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, what about the guys who don't take the steps? Well, sticking to that same past year, I've had probably another dozen or so guys ask me to sponser. Usually, we play phone tag for a couple of weeks and they drop off the radar. Maybe they recovered also, but I see enough of them come back around in a few months or a year later to suspect that most of them went back to drinking. Of those dozen or so, I know at least 5 that relapsed and came back to the program. Another that balked at the 4th step is still sober in a drug court program. The others I don't know about.

So, if I tally up the known cases, 3/3 for those taking the steps, 1/6 for those not taking the steps. That 1 is suspect because I see a ton of the drug court folks relapse a few months after they 'graduate'. The others in the sample are unknown, but past observation does give a clue. They will be back.

That's my past year experience mistycshore, and it's consistent with any other year I look at. It's not scientific by any means.

Here's another way to look at it: I started working with 2 guys in the last 2 weeks. Sat down with each, same discussion, same directions. One of them has met me every couple of days with completed work out of the Big Book. He is actively taking the steps. The other I've left messages for that don't get returned. I'll take his call if he wants to start over, but otherwise I can't help him. He is doing nothing towards taking the steps. The 'any program as successful as spontaneous remission' idea would have me believe that those two have an equal chance at recovering. Do I believe that? Absolutely not.

Those who take the 12 steps recover. Those who do not, well, maybe they'll get lucky and spontaneously remiss.

Please share if you have experience that indicates otherwise.

mistycshore

Hi Keith. I'm glad you think I'm nice.

I wasn't sharing experience but known statistics that are well published. You are offering personal testimony, and that's great too. But just because the BB says something does not mean it is or ever was true, and AA is not the end-all, be-all of recovery - thank goodness!

I think you are nice too.

bugsworth

The original question was can someone quit without any formal program...the answer is a resounding yes. SR is a wonderful example of this truth...many wise and sober people here have beaten their alcohol and drug addiction without any "formal" program at all.
Once again it all boils down to the individual and their commitment to living a sober life.

cassandra2

Program or not I am not sure that it matters. It has been my experience that an addict HAS to quit for THEMSELVES and no other reason. I think that is why relapse is so common. They quit for the wrong reasons or for people.

Thats just my opinion. Not based on statistics. Just life experience. I do believe its possible for people to stop and continue to be clean on their own but I think the big IF is the reason they quit.

Anna

Keith,

I want to clarify that, although I am not AA member, I have never 'spontaneously remissed', nor have I been 'lucky'. I work hard at my recovery every single day, without fail, and have done so for more than 8 years. My recovery continues today, and I enjoy the benefits.

mistycshore

I read an article some time ago that stated the people who stopped drinking without participation in a program did better if they had emotional support through family or friends. Of course, I imagine the same is true for people who do participate in a program, so I'm not sure how its relevant. I am certain that Bill W. was not the first person in the history of the planet who needed to quit drinking and did so. I'm sure that's been happening "since man first crushed grapes," some 10,000 years before Bill was born.

least

Tho I sometimes attend my homegroup AA mtg, I'm not 'working the steps' nor do I have a sponsor. I'm staying sober with the help of SR and my alcohol counselor, and my own sincere desire to stay sober and live a better life.

keithj

Kind of preaching to the choir Anna. I don't know what this spontaneous remission is, but most people I know that have successfully stopped drinking, have done so by taking some kind of action.

Apparently though, dilligently working some kind of program has no better success than 'just quitting'. Doesn't match my experience, or yours. The original post was asking if its possible to quit w/o a program. Sure it is. My experience shows that dilligent adherence to a program has a much higher success rate than quitting w/o a program.

Dee74

Entirely possible Need happiness. I suspect millions of people did it before the formation of AA, LifeRing, SMART, modern psychology etc, and I know many continue to do so today.

But it needs hard work and absolute commitment. Like Anna, I've used SR as my support, I've been here for over 2 years....I work hard everyday on my own recovery, and helping others with theirs.

Eighteen days is very early in to make any kind of judgements, but I wish you and yr bf well

D

mistycshore

Of course, you would have no first-hand knowledge of those who quit without a program.

keithj

Mistycshore,

I get your point. My experience is limited to those that walk into the rooms of AA, or those in half-way housing, jails, and the occasional aquaintance.

I'd also like to aplologize for coming off harshly to those that have found sobriety on their own means. I don't mean to be disparging of their hard work and efforts. I don't really mean to make any claims whatsoever about those who are able to stay sober by other ways.

I'll limit it to AA. Telling someone they have an equal chance of staying sober through spontaneous remission or by taking AA's 12 steps is doing them a disservice, and it doesn't match reality. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the people that thoroughly do the AA program recover. Take Anna as an example. She recovered by hard work and dilligent effort and whatever else she does. I'm confident that had she put her hard work and effort into AA, she would have recovered also. So will most everyone else that puts their effort into AA. The idea that those people putting their efforts into AA will have as much chance of long term sobriety as the 1/20 spontaneous remission stats needs to be challenged.

I see many people in the rooms of AA that are able to stay sober by doing little more than having the support group, learning how to have fun sober, finding new activities, and really applying themselves to not drinking.

But I also see many people in the rooms of AA for whom that approach fails over and over. Those people need something else. It's to those people that I feel your message is defeatist. Without any real exceptions, those people can recover if they work the AA program.

I look at the Newcomers forum on here as a fairly representative cross section of people that are genuinely interested in getting and staying sober. How many of them come back month after month starting from scratch with trying to stay sober? Bugsworth pointed out that many of them stay sober with the support from SR alone. I agree. I'm generally a glass half full kind of guy, but I do see many of them that don't stay sober.

I think your message is that they have no better shot of staying sober than the 1/20 rate. My message is that they have a near 100% chance of long term sobriety and happiness, provided they do certain things.

I'm not in any way implying that many people can't stay sober with other methods or by just applying themselves. I see many examples of that. What I am saying is, there is hope for those that have not been sussessful on their own.

Hope that makes sense.