Jimba

I am on my second day at 4 mg and I am feeling famously great. Just an update. Some of that stinky film that cover and inhibits every pore of the world is coming back and I woke up with an achy body. I felt a little bit bitchy so life is getting back to where it should be. I got a ways to go, 3 more on 4mg and then down to 2 mg unless I have some troubles. I am watching for the signs, cravings and other addictive behaviors. I do need to get into behavioral treatment NA AA etc.. But I cant get motivated any help with that???

Jimba

spell check did some funny things on that post. Thats inhabits and covers

Shellslove

sometimes you just gotta go with a 'fake it till you make it' attitude. You're putting alot of hard work into this jimba - even if you cannot muster up the 'motivation' to go - make like nike and JUST DO IT! Going to an AA/NA meeting is simple - you're at your computer anyway so look up meeting times and just go to one. Don't even have to say anything, just GO! Don't think - just do....It's better than sitting around waiting to see if you're going to feel any better 5 min from now. Better to spend your time productively! You're really reaching out for inspiration right now, and I think a meeting in itself would be the 'motivation' you're looking for - ya know?

Jimba

3rd day not feeling so great today. Blah. Its gonna start getting tough now I think. I did well I didn't want to leave the house, ended up pulling it together and went downtown with my mom to Olivera st. took some photos and ate.

jane_668

Jimba, you're doing great!!! one of the things i used to do is listen to my body.When I feel I'm starting to have wds i would increase the dose by 1mg then decrease again the next day till I feel comfortable enough at a specific dose. The reason is because it takes usually 3days to feel any wds duse to the half life of subutex. Afterwards , i would stabalize myself for 3 weeks before weaning down any further. I told before that tappering would get harder as you get below 4mgs.So don't worry.just try to pull it together.All what you have to do is bare some pain for 2 to 3days and you'l body will get used to it. YOu're doing so greattttttt Jimba. just find yourself some face to face support. Someone you can be accountable to.It helps if you let someone hold the pills for you. We're here to support you.:ghug2

Jimba

I have discovered what you are talking about. I did the research on the drug its self and figured the through the half life cycles I should feel crappy when I down dose for three or 4 days, then turn the corner. I had considered on the day that I down dose to up dose to my previous level for one day and then the next day to begin with the lower dosage. That way durning the detox I would actually have a softer transition, which it sounds like you are saying. I haven't tried it yet because intellectually it makes sense to me but denial is strong and I am still thinking from the groin and the stomach rather than the heart and the head. Sounds like I was on the right track though. I saw a new doc last week I am going back to see the old doc next week to give him an update on where Im at and get some lower dosage pills. Its getting tough to cut the 8s up and for some reason I alway wanna take the big piece now. LOL!I've prepared for this so I am living with someone who can help me with the pills. I have a strong resolve, I am more worried about two years from now. I know I can make it through this.

Thank you for keeping up with me Jane you have helped a great deal. You seem to be a straight thinker, analytical. That helps.

Jimba

By the way day # 4 hard to get out of bed, feel better now. That stinky film that covers the world is becoming more apparent. I think its time to look into starting some Advil and B vitamins. Showers do help as, well. Im generally still alright I cant complain to much, Ill save that for a couple of weeks when I really need it.

jane_668

Thank you Jimba. I prefer to call it slitening to my body. i know that i don't endure much pain and wds so I try to minimize them .It took me two months to detox completely. So i think you should give your self more time. The point from subutex is to stabalize enough on a certain dose so that you can live almost normally. If you keep cutting the doses too quickly you won't stabalize. Take your time. learn how to go through days without wds or urges to use. You won't cut your habiy if you're constantly in wds. Also, at 4mgs I cut my dose to 3.5 only then 3mgs and so one. Remember easy does it. As stupid as these slogan may sound sometimes,they're also very true. Are you going to any meetings for support. This could be the Best time to start going to meetings. You're doing great Jimba.

Jimba

#5 Hard to get out of bed after I did at 9:00 I felt better, I sleep for 10 hrs so I thinks its a long stretch between doses. But I have turned the corner, Im feeling normal again. More normal than ever BMs every day YAY(sure you wanted that info but that was a problem through out, I'm starting to have my smokers hack dance each day when I get up, body aches ( I'm 36 so thats normal) all the stuff that went along with being sober is coming back. I know theres a time when it will be worse than what it should, but the doped up feeling is waning now. I'm going to see my DR. manana. I think he's going to agree with you Jane to take it easy on the taper and I was feeling like the last taper I'd hold at 1mg for a month. I am going slisten to my body though. I don't think I am much danger of relapse at this point. I know myself and my cycles at this point I have a strong resolve and am just sick of it, it makes me sick to my stomach to even think about.

jane_668

Jimba, I'm glad you're still hang in. you can ask your doc for 2mgs pills. This way you can take 2mgs in the morning and 2mgs in the afternoon. That helped me too. Try it.

Jimba

Im going to do that this afternoon, and plan for a step down in a week maybe less. Ill put my foot in the water and see how it fly's sooner than later. I gotta get back to work soon.

christin1225

Jimba,

Sorry for falling out of your posts. Last week was a real hard week for me. My taper to 8mg was very hard emotionally. At least that's what I think everything was all about. First physical and then the depression. So, I stayed on 8mg for a week longer than I had planned. My head is more stable now. I decreased to 6mg on Sunday and, so far, this has been the easiest decrease (of course tomorrow will be the 36-hour mark).

All that to say that you didn't lose my interest, I was just too messed up to keep up. I'll subscribe to this thread so that if I go haywire again, I'll have the notifications to remind me of where your thread is at.

My goodness, you've got two docs on the payroll! WOW!! (Actually, that's what I'll have for two weeks in May. I'm hoping to switch over to a doctor who actually talks to his patients). It sounds to me as though you've really gotten a good grip on the best taper for you. That's great, Jimba. I was really excited to see that you have someone to help you with the pills.

Last week, I had a horrible time getting motivated. This week, I seem back to myself. Do you have a list of NA meetings in your area, Jimba? There's no better time than the present to sit in on a meeting or two or three .

Jimba

got my 2 mg pills today they are tiny. Before I always got ready with a hot cup of coffee to open all the pores in my mouth, today I was uh whatever I could live without it.

I am at the end of my first week on 4mg not sure if I should start stepping down a MG at a time or spending more time letting myself level I feel like 4 to 2 is going to be ugly,nothings been ugly at this point anyhow, but I have no idea, I am at home with no responsibilities at this point, so it may be better to go for it and if it don't work use janes teqnuqie up one one day.

Jimba

Thanks good to see your down to 6mg just get past the 5 days and you'll be good.

I did miss you.

christin1225

Jimba, Although the following schedule that I copied from another opiate forum with buprenorphine subforum, indicates that 2 to 1 is where you'll probably "feel" the reductions, I've heard that going under 4mg is where you'll really notice that you're decreasing it. I highlighted the comment that agrees with Jane's suggestion.

Okay... so, here's what I have to share. Thanks for posting your experience.

Everybody is different, so if you really begin to feel wd symptoms when trying to taper, just take a little bit more to make yourself comfortable. For most people initially taking sub, a dramatic reduction will rarely be felt at all, and like previously mentioned..if it does, just take a little more!

A pill cutter or razor can be used to achieve the lower dosages, sub is also available in 2mg pils.

Day 1 (8mg to 12mg) - If all you needed was less than simply find your dose and reduce a little slower or in 1mg doses.
Day 2 (8mg to 12mg) Once a day.. or split into (2) 4mg or 6mg doses
Day 3 (8mg to 12mg)
Day 4 (6mg to 10mg)
Day 5 (6mg to 10mg)
Day 6 (6mg to 8mg)
Day 7 (4mg to 8mg)
Day 8 (4mg to 6mg)
Day 9 (4mg to 6mg)
Day 10 (2mg to 4mg)
Day 11 (2mg to 4mg)
Day 12 (2mg to 3mg)
Day 13 (1mg to 2mg) (at around this point you may start to feel the reductions)
Day 14 (1mg to 2mg)
Day 15 (1mg to 2mg)
Day 16 (.5mg to 1mg) (you can stop at this point if you are ready)
Day 17 (.5mg to 1mg)
Day 18 (.5mg to 1mg)
Days 19 to 21- (.25mg to .5mg) if you can break/cut the pills this small, this low amount will make the wds as mild as possible. A long drawn out taper is not really needed if you are not yet physically addicted to the sub, so feel free to make up your own plan, just try to jump at around the 1mg mark for the easiest overall time. (Short term sub detoxes only)

FOR LONGER TERM USE TAPERS- You can follow the same schedule as above, due to the long half life sometimes it takes up to three days to feel dose reductions. Also try to drag out the .25 and .50 mg as long as you can, if you can get away with every other day dosing that would be even better. The reason for such a long drawn out taper towards the end is to reduce the amount of sub you have in your body when you do finally stop. People have reported much milder wd symptoms that have used sub for longer periods of time if they paid their dues with a long drawn out partially painful/uncomfortable taper at extremely low doses. These low tapers lasted weeks up to a month at .5mg doses. For a lot of us addicts, this method for controlling our dosages is pretty difficult. If you just jump when you get down to .5mg your wds wont really be too bad. The problem with stopping sub is not really the severity of the wds, but the length of time they last for. And then there is always a very good chance that the PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms) will follow after the acute wds have subsided or stopped.

I have been keeping a diary of sorts on my blog with what is happening with my tapering. Have you ever considered doing the same? If you do, please let me know. I'd like to keep track.

jane_668

I'm sorry christin for having a hard time tapering. Don't worry if it takes one week longer. Just listen to your body. That's what I used to do. Don't rush the taper. Sometimes I had to decrease my dose by 0.5 mgs. I did it really slowly. The hardest part was tapering below 4mgs. I would decrease my dose every two or three weeks. However, what realy helped me was the fact that I ddinot let my doctor put me on 8mgs for more than one week. Then I cut down to 6mgs and so on. BV told me a very good advice; the less sub the better. I felt my best days ever on 2mgs dose. I felt so good. So believe me when I say that as you decrease your dose you'll feel happier and better. Just try to stick to your schedule taper. Sub is a great tool. It's worth it. Here I am 64 days clean.


Jimba, I'm glad you're doing ok. I think it's going to be hard cutting down to 2mgs. Why don't you try decreasing your dose to 3mgs. If you felt comfortable enough than go ahead and decrease it to 2mgs. I just have to tell you that I had a great difficult decreasing my dose from 3mgs to 2 . I had to go down to 2.5 then 2mgs. So it's going to get harder as you get down in the dose. Just hang in. If it takes you one extra week or two then it's ok. The ultimate goal is to taper with minimum discomfort. Good Luck Christin and Jimba!! If you need to talk pm me any time :praying

christin1225

Jimba... gonna hijack here for a moment. Sorry.

Jane, I'm trying to decrease my Sub as quickly as possible for a couple reasons.

1) PAWS. This is what I've read on the subject and Suboxone:

A long drawn out taper may reduce or eliminate the acute wds, however anyone that has tried this method has still reported the inevitable PAWS.

A less than 21 day detox usually yields a 3 week recovery period ( a week or more of PAWS)
A 21 day to 3 month stay on sub yields about a 4 to 6 week recovery period, some PAWS
A 3 to 6 month stay on sub yields about a 4 to 8 week recovery period, PAWS
A 6 month and longer stay on sub yields about a 6 to 10 week recovery period, and 3mos to 2 years of PAWS

My main reason for getting on Sub was not to avoid withdrawal but to give myself enough time to get myself together enough not to have a high risk of relapse. However, when I made that decision, I had not heard anything about a relationship between Suboxone and PAWS. I'm at the point now, where I'm as afraid to stay on Suboxone as I'm afraid that coming off would be to risk relapse. Currently, I'm trying to muster the courage to face recovery with the same challenges that the many addicts quitting without replacements face.

My second reason is one of even having the possibility of recovery. My sponsor (whom I trust with my life) suspects that Suboxone might be interferring with my recovery on a spiritual level. Because she has no personal experience with replacements, she has spoken to someone with experience and I've been reading some things that confirm her concern.

Although I don't want to taper too quickly and doom myself to relapsing, I don't want to be kicking myself two months down the road when I'm depressed and battling a fatigue that won't quit.

What was the total amount of time that you spend on Sub, Jane? Did you experience any PAWS afterward? Also, if you don't mind sharing, were you working a step program during that time? If so, do you think that you made good progress while on the Suboxone.

Thanks so much for looking at this for me, Jane. And Jimba, thanks for allowing me to borrow your thread.

Jimba

Thats fine I thought this was what it was all about anyway. Hijack away any time you please!!

Jimba

That a ******** it statement, because you may already be in for PAWS from you DOC, not just the sub. I read the thread that came from and although he had good, really good info some was sort of just anecdotal. Especially the statement that Sub was never developed for a quick WD. If you try to taper and are successful and a month down the road you relapse, relapse to the sub you know it works. If you know yourself you know when these things are coming. I have in the past and just said **** it. With the opiates if I cant make it Ill go back to the sub. Life isn't easy and depression sucks, but no way around it its all part of recovery for all of us one way or another.

Your sponser is right sub is a drug and your are not feeling what your body gives you to feel you are feeling the effects of a drug.

If you were a 25 year heroin veteran I might have some different advise.

Besides you can fight PAWS by getting off your ass and running around the track, set up any exercise.

Im still on drugs too so maybe Im not the best to judge, and Jane you do have a great insight.

Jimba

Im just having the hebegeebees its mental. I am feeling like good good again like hey lets go out and wash the car good. Which is not normal for me to wash my own car, but I do take pride in my appearance and feel good in a suit that part is coming back too. I think Ill try 3mg maybe 2mg tomorrow I dont want to float too long I have 7 days now and 12 since I took 4 8s in a days, when you guys pulled me back from my jump. Something like that anyway. So get ready for some more whining. My last girl said I was good at that and men had a low pain threshold, I think Im pretty tough!