christin1225

Whine away, Jimba, any time that you're ready. We're here for you. My most recent reduction (Sunday) just hit this morning. Nausea and headache.

jane_668

You're most welcome my dear Christin. I am glad I can help.

Concerning my experience with sub, well my doctor first put me on subutex for two months. I couldnot believe how good I was feeling especially at 2mgs. I thought that I finally got over my addiction since they told me that subutex heals receptors. I took my recovery for granted so ,ofcourse, I relapsed for a week and then I went back again on subutex for another 3months. This time I started working a recovery program, got a sponor and attended meetings. I tried to put aside all my old ideas.

While on subutex, I was feeling good all the time. I had headaches so I never thought of myself clean. It's like I had a constant good life and this not normal. Nobody is supposed to feel good all the time. I was so eager to get off sub to experience true feelings. I wanted to have drug free emotions. I would like to point out that my DOC was tramadol. I was using anywhere between 20-25 pills a day combined with alcohol and benzo. I was in a deep depression and was feeling so down. I was thinking of suicide daily but I never dared to try. I was so miserable and couldnot gett of Tramadol for more than 20 days. So when I get on subutex I couldnot believe it. I felt so good. My doctor first put me on 8mgs pills but I stayed on it for one week only then cut it down to 6mgs and afterwards I started a very slow taper. I would cut down my dose every 3 week. I learned how to go through life without being high . I started working the steps.

However, there's a huge difference between working the step on sub and being drug free. A huge difference!!! subutex curbs the cravings so I felt sometimes that I'm working the steps jsut because they told me so. On the other hand, when I got off sub , the story was completely different. The steps were the only thing that kept me clean. I had a difficult time getting of sub considering the fact that I sometimes snorted sub. That was a very bad idea and it made the wds depsite the fact that I weaned down to 1mg. unbareable. I couldnot move my body for the first 8 days. i had a very bad flu like wd with watery eyes and zero energy .My doctor put me on xanax and stilnox for 30 days. I had bad anxiety. After 30 days I started feeling better and i got off xanax. I changed my clean time too. The good thing about subutex is that it helped make the transition between being high and clean easier. I didnot know how to deal with stress and daily life without pills.Subutex helped me cut my habit.

jane_668

I agree with Christin, keep whining if it helps. Just hang in and stick to your taper schedule. So whatever you're doing that's helping then keep doing it. It would help if you have soem support. Perhaps it's the best time to start going to meetings. This way you'll be accountable . It will be get pretty bad as you cut down your doses. You'll need support and there's no place better than meetings to lift your spirit when you feel down having aches from wds. These people understand. Why don't you give it a try? Subutex alone is never enough. It should be only a part of your recovery program .

Tish28

Wow!! That's some of the best information I've ever had. Thank you Jane (as always, from the beginning!!), Jimba and Christin. You've all cleared up many questions for me.

Christin, you and I are in exactly the same boat. I'm desperately lacking in a sponsor though. I can't do the steps on my own - that would be too easy. I am so afraid of PAWS, as I've been on subs for longer than I can remember. That's what's really stopping me. Oh, to live the life drug free and feel my emotions in the raw....but can I deal with the pain of life?
Jimba, you're doing so well, I've been following your other thread, missing this one. I haven't had much time to get on the computer, but I've suscribed to this thread now and will follow it. Let me know if you start a new one!
It's May day tomorrow, so no-one is at work. Is it the same in the States? Stay with me my friends, I need you. Who's hijacking now?!

Hope to hear from you soon,
Tish x

Jimba

8th day at 4mg, I take 2mg in the morning 2 at night, it is getting harder to give up mgs. Althought I'm not feeling anything but a little relief from my evening dose. I have some flu like stuff going on which actually be the flu not sure. I got some d today been congested, which the sub gets rid of but if there is a grande finale of a month after 1mg I gotta keep going. I took some time off after my last project. I screwed around for 2 months now I'm at a month of really trying to figure things out and projecting by the time I get to the end of the sub and ready to look for the next project it will be a 6 month ordeal. I've been blessed with the resources but I gotta get back to work.

christin1225

I put in one sh!tty day. I'd be more tolerant if I could better plan for them. I faked a horrible migraine with nausea at work. At least no one expected me to be gabby or to smile. I fought wanting to curl up in a corner and close my eyes. I had expected that I would be sick YESTERDAY (that is if I was going to feel something with this reduction as I had the last).

Well, at least the day is almost over. All that's left is a very slight nausea and my typical fall-asleep-when-I-sit fatigue.

Here's to new day tomorrow.

Jimba... if you get too sick on 4mg/day, maybe you'd prefer to alternate days of 6mg and 4mg for about a week. Though, you seem quite determined to stick out 4mg. Whichever you do... (that's for today).

Tish... glad to get the doc news.

Jimba

Thanks I needed that. That is for today and tomorrow who know as long as we make it a habit to improve as we can.

I just built a 7 story building(apartments). I was the superintendent. I was responsible for the goings on of 100 to 250 individuals everyday. It takes tenacity and the ability to run yourself into the ground without a wince to manage something like that. The city the owners the company I worked for and one guy ***** on a wall because he lacks respect and the whole world blows up. I wanted to be an artist for god sakes. To create and live with beautiful things.

Thats another story.

But "buts thats for today" I needed. Now I need to go to sleep. I have to help my uncle who is my idol. Makes the best out of everything, everything exciting, he older like a grandpa. But he almost gone, hes 82 just had a massive heart attack and hes out for a month and wants to build patio cover. Aunts outta town So I gotta go make sure he doesn't so anything crazy. Design it and build it. Maybe his attitude will help with me going through a reduction a little natural happiness.

Jimba

No may day for us, bring to france I ant to be a gypsy too!!!!

Tish28

Me too, Hun.

[QUOTEThats another story.
][/QUOTE]

Tell us, I' d love to hear it.

The gypsy culture is not so bad. One day I'll tell you more. Wouldn't it be great to detox together? We'd tell eachother stories into the night, you, me and Christin!!
I'm the farthest behind, as I'm still on 8mg of Subutex, but stick with me guys - I'll get there.

My favourite song is " What a wonderful world" by Louis Armstrong. That is where I got my 'signature' from. Listen to it if you can. It always gives me a great warm feeling inside.

Hugs Jimba, and speak to you soon.
Tish xxx

jane_668

Tish, I missed you. How are you doing?

Jimba , you're so determined. You're doing great. I know it's getting harder but it's Worth it. There's no taste better then the taste of freedom. So hang in!!

Christin, my sponsor used to tell me " a clean day is always a good day". So don't worry girl. YOU can make it!! Try not to focus too much on your feeling. They will change from day to day. All it takes is 3 days for you to feel better and stabalize on 6mgs. Whenever I was feeling down, I used to tell myself that I have to do is get through today. Forget about the next day, next week. ...focus on Today!!!

I read this somewhere and I thought it may help:

Love
Jane

Jimba

Tell us, I' d love to hear it.

The gypsy culture is not so bad. One day I'll tell you more. Wouldn't it be great to detox together? We'd tell eachother stories into the night, you, me and Christin!!
I'm the farthest behind, as I'm still on 8mg of Subutex, but stick with me guys - I'll get there.

My favourite song is " What a wonderful world" by Louis Armstrong. That is where I got my 'signature' from. Listen to it if you can. It always gives me a great warm feeling inside.

Hugs Jimba, and speak to you soon.
Tish xxx[/QUOTE]


Ahhh! Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Stan Getz, Gilberto Autaud, Listen to desafinado Miles Davis. You got it man. I took 3mg this morning going to try to skip tonight and go to bed early.

Maybe we should all come, how about you Jane you ready to be a gypsy for a time?

Jimba

Tell us, I' d love to hear it.

The gypsy culture is not so bad. One day I'll tell you more. Wouldn't it be great to detox together? We'd tell eachother stories into the night, you, me and Christin!!
I'm the farthest behind, as I'm still on 8mg of Subutex, but stick with me guys - I'll get there.

My favourite song is " What a wonderful world" by Louis Armstrong. That is where I got my 'signature' from. Listen to it if you can. It always gives me a great warm feeling inside.

Hugs Jimba, and speak to you soon.
Tish xxx[/QUOTE]


We are all close in our detox your not so far behind. Good days and bad days are coming back. I did some landscaping today it felt good for my body to hurt again. I'm a little grumpy and the ox tail is ready so, Ill have to tell my story later.

christin1225

With everything in me (even if I have to beat it into submission), I'll agree with this.

Thanks, Jane.
What do you mean by three days? Three days once symptoms start? I decreased on Sunday, thought that I might be sick on Tuesday (that was what hapened with the last taper) but I didn't get sick until yesterday and I was sick most of the day. I thought I was all better today but was dry heaving at 10:30 this morning and, though I'm a bit better than yesterday, I'm still sick (Last taper, I was sick for only a day). So that I don't have to act pleasant at work, I've been faking a severe migraine with stomach issues (I become so nauseated that I need to close my eyes). Fortunately, I was left mostly to myself at work. I don't think that I'll be reducing on Sunday again.

I really want to be upbeat about this, guys. I'm sorry. It's just that this has sucked from the first taper, even though I read that there should be no symptoms until 4mg. (I must not forget, however, that I haven't experienced any anxiety with this taper! I am sooo grateful for that!)

Jimba

I felt different symptoms at every taper and they are lasting a little longer than expected. but, they are not severe, i do have flu like symptoms some D but haven't thrown up yet. Make sure you are getting lots of sleep, this is key for your brain to rebalance each day, nap if you have to and sleep at night. When I go down a mg I am getting 12 to 14 hours of sleep then after the 3-5 days I seem to normalize a bit. Stress will also effect your symptoms minimize it. I think dranamine or benidryl ( I screwed both of those up so ). If you ache advil etc. If you can get it while your detoxing xanax or valium for sleep and anxiety but be carful with those.

Jane may have some better input.

Jimba

I am very sad too hear you are not feeling good I want you and I to make it together.

jane_668

Chrsitin, oh sweetie you're doing awesome. You're hanging in!!! I'm so Proud of you. Remember ,every one reacts differently to Sub. Focus on the outcome. You'll finally be drug -free yay. I know it's be hard and really exhausting but all it takes is getting through today. Focus on Today ,okay!! Promise yourself that no matter what happens you'll stick to your taper. Honey, you're NOT alone. You're in my prayers and I'm have Faith in you. YOU can get through this. Baby steps. Just put one foot infront of the other. If you want, read my old threads and you'll know where I'm coming from. If I can make it so Can you. Everyone can recover but you have to work it.In my AA homegroup we close the meeting by saying "It works , If you work it, So work it, You're worth it". I loved it. Try to go to as much meetings as you can . You need support especially when you're in wds. Don't be afraid to tell them that you're on sub and you're weaning down. It all starts with honesty. I learned that everyone can share their wisdom and experience but they cannot get me clean. I have to do the hard work. It's not easy but WE Have NO OTHER OPTION. It's either recovery or jails,institutions and death; oh and please don't forget to add misery,lonliness and isolation to the list. You know what? You can write down all the reasons why you want to stay clean; all the jams you get yourself into because of drugs. That's what they told me to do. It helped me a lot.I keep this list in my wallet.

I meant that the worst sypmtoms peak at day 3 then they would decrease gradually. So if you can hang in 3 days after each dose reduction then personally I think you would be fine. I also believe that while tapering many of the sypmtoms would be psychological. We would be expecting to have wds and any heache or stomach ache would be interpreted as wds.

IMHO, you shouldnot reduce any more doses till you stabalize on 6mgs. That's why you said you felt it sucks from the beginning. You're not giving yourself enough time to feel some comfort. Ofcourse you'll feel exhausted. My dear Christin, somehwere along the journey we have to rest somewhere before we can continue our trip. As Jima said, this is not a race . if you fear PAWs ,donn worry. It's better to have a mild PAW then relapse. Wds at 6mgs sometimes means you're weaning down too quickly.

PS-don't self-medicate. If you are really feeling bad then perhaps you can talk to your doctor who can prescribe something non-addictive. My sponsor used to tell me that I'm a pill addict and my answer to life was in the form of a pill. I don't think you would want to detox from xanax/valium in addition to sub. Their wd is even worse. Keep your doctor informed. Always ask him for advice whenever you're feeling any discomfort. There may be another medical issue which is not sub related. We're Not doctors here. We merely share our experience so that it can give hope to others. Only he can know what's going on with you excatly. That's why you're paying him money. There's no easy way out here. However, you can make sure to do this Only once. I am here for you. PM any time you want:praying

Love
Jane

jane_668

Jimba, I'm perfectly ready to join you guys with this gypsy thing. I guess it would be fun. Perhaps we should start advertising here on SR for a gypsy journey(lol) and the destination would be France. Tish, you should spare us few places or it's ok. We can stay out enjoying the stars.

Tish28

Bonjour, my friends,

You can all come, anytime. I'd love to see you. Perhaps, in the future we could rent three old gypsy caravans,painted in vivid colours, drawn by horses and travel, free to visit all the beautiful and wild corners of France together. Bliss.

Jane, I promise that I'll write you a long letter soon. I miss you.

I'm feeling loads better today, perhaps I will try to taper on Monday, to 6mg. I'll see what this new doctor says, I think I'm ready and I want to catch up with you!!:ghug I love you all, to bits and pieces.

Tish xxx

Jimba

Christin, how are you doing today? Better I hope! I feel like you might be or on the verge of the upside. Jane is right about listening to the Dr., she's also right about the Xanax and the Valium. We are adicts and we have to be careful, but you have to fight the fight with whatever you can and yes any more than taking care of the bad days with those would be a horrible idea. I would not get caught up with any other of the options I was offered because of the long term consequences, effixor which some people swear by has been found to cause people with depression to progress to manic depression. I have a friend who will never be able to live with out the pills as far as I can tell. She stopped and spent almost a year hiding in a closet or on drug binges. All anicdotal and I put less faith in the pros than Jane, unless you are at ucla medical, adiction is a new disease and only recently been treated as such. Hell psycology is still merely a century old. Do what you have to do. Be aware of what you are doing, there are no magic bullets. We have all formed a bond and we will make it together. I'll wait at 3mg if you want. I know you will be here soon and feeling good. I am on day 2. I'm taking all three in the morning which makes me feel good all day but when I wake in the morning I need my dose to get my ass moving and to stop sniffling and coughing. I've got a couple of more days of things being rough or getting rougher and may need to employe your alternating method at the lower doses, it seems to make sense.

christin1225

I try to appreciate psychosomatic illness. However, when things are happening unlike what I thought I might expect, it leads me away from thinking that the symptoms are purely psychological. I sincerely expected to be sick the day before I was (and the taper previous to this one, I was shocked to be sick because I was mainly anxious and fatigued the one before). So, nothing has gone according to what I anticipated for these past two tapers. Ane when I began the tapering process, I had anticipated no withdrawal at high doses and, therefore, went posting on several opiate boards looking to find anyone who had any idea what was happening to me. Maybe it's still psychological. The mind is an amazing thing.

Last night, I ended up taking another 4mg for a total of 8mg. At nightime, there was a weight on my chest that was unbearable. I was having difficulty breathing and was getting dizzy. (That's how my anxiety presents.) I finally decided that another 2mg to help ease this taper was necessary. This is hanging on so long that my husband is taking notice. The fatigue is setting in today, along with mild anxiety. This has been a tough reduction.

I'll say one thing: there is a benefit to the stomach distress and cramping. I can actually have a BM without help when I'm feeling like this. (Sorry for the subject matter, but it's one thing that I can say is good about this!) Same thing last month. I just chalk it up to the closest that my system can get to having a case of diarrhea while still on this much opioid.