jluke

Christin, my plan is to wait at least 24 hrs, the 8 hours I wrote was from what jimba said he did. 8 or 12 hours is to soon for subs, I know. Thanks for the chart and I think I will be at the appropriate wd state tomorrow around noon if I don't take anymore today or tonight. Only 3 vikes today and I don't feel bad yet - amazing. But like I said, I know there is a light at the end of this crazy tunnel, hopefully this will stop me from taking anymore pills for another 20 hours. I think it will, plus I will take xanax to help me relax.

Yes, the 90 tabs plus a refill with only 1 (1 hour) visit too. I was surprised myself. First Dr I saw also.

christin1225

When is your next visit? I know that many doctors induct at 24mg because they want to saturate the receptors. Many people have had equal (or better in the long run?) success with not doing it that way but by inducting with low doses.

WARNING!! Post taking a frustrated turn...
I won't pretend to know what to tell you. Although I've read and I've tried to learn and, as you probably have noticed, am tapering, I have no advice today. All I can say is that I'm doing this stinkin' Sub thing because I'm an addict, right? I can't figure this stuff out and I'm tired of trying. I need a doctor who will be a doctor and not just a script writer. Jluke, I hope that the 90 tabs plus a refill is not and indication of the level of care that your addiction is going to receive. That sounds even worse than what I currently get.

Jimba

8 was plenty for me and you are taking far less than I. The 12 to 24 hours is for those on opiates that stay in your system for a very long period of time. I looked this up a hundred different ways talked to 3 doctors live and asked what amount of sub is equal to what amount of vic.. What I was told and what I have seen on the net is 1mg of sub is about equal to a 5/500 vic.. Heres he catch though the half life of sub is 37 hour. So if you take 8mg of sub in 37 hours you still have 4mg of sub in your body. This is not the case with vics.. Right now you feel like you need a vic every 6 or 8 hours to stay comfortable if you are addicted, not so with sub you don't start to feel the need for a sub for a day or two once you stop. Christin has a way different experience and history than what you have told. The doc may have given you so much because people go in and lie because they are embarrassed.

Words of wisdom if you are only taking three vics a day, you have the wrong program and I would talk to your doc. You are almost off. If you dont educate yourself now you are going to end up with sub being you DOC.

Post a thread and tell your story, I want to save you some pain.

I am not a doctor just someone who has experienced sub and spent time listening to other and talking to 4 different Dr.s in office visits.

Jimba

Thumbs up on the last one about his care level!!!!! He is headed down the wrong road I agree. I did not mean to besmirch you in my last post, Just my opinion 8 is enough if he is taking three vics and feels fine.

Oh and by the way if the vics are for fun flushem dude!!!!!!

jluke

Jimba I went from 15-20 and sometimes more a day, tapered down to 3 in 2 days and feel really bad right now. Nothing in 6 hours, just the 3 vikes in the morning to get me thru work. I going to try the 3 subs as prescribed because I have been taking this stuff daily for years and the wd will be bad tonight, I'm sure much worse the last time I tried to stop 2 years ago, and I only lasted a few days. 24 hours or more if possible w/o vikes and take the subs and see. I will look into a quick sub reduction after the weekend with the next appointment.

jluke

Jimba, why the flush the vikes? I can simply get them anytime I want. I feel that if I can't have them and not take them this will never end. Just a test for myself.

Thanks all for the advice.

Jimba

I suppose it won't matter, you'll have no desire after you start taking the subs. It is an addicts behavioral pattern to want to save them. The very thing thats fucting up your life and you want them in your house. I understand a it's a waste and b once you start taking the sub you'll be suprised at how much you don't want the vikes. c it will take a **** load of vikes to get you even close to high and sick if you IV. Wasn't really thinking. If you have a long history as you say and think relapse is going to be a problem and need the sub to get started in a program you may not to go for the rapid detox. I just thought if your down to 3 a day your almost tapered. In any case keep the sub levels as low as you can to stop cravings and it has a half life of 37 hours not 8 like the vikes.

Sorry if I'm splintered I'm writing this on the fly.(phone)

christin1225

Gentlemen... the number of pills doesn't mean squat. It's the total milligrams. Are we talking 20 5mg vic? (I'm used to hydros 7.5, 10, etc.) Before quitting, I was taking 20 5mg perc (5mg perc = 7.5mg vic). There was no way that I would be able to "taper down" to 3 a day and work, simply would not happen. I could take 5-6 oxys in the morning and be able to function sick (which is what I think that jluke is saying that he has done but has been able to do one 3?).

As far as starting dose, my opinion is that 24mg is overkill. But, I've read about 16-32mg being used to saturate in the beginning. The ceiling effect is reached at 4mg, so the brain is really not receiving any more opiate benefit with anything over 4mg. I don't understand the pharmacology exactly, but I think that the saturation is to help with preventing abusing the sub in the beginning (which I did and got sick) to feel any additional high and to keep the level above the saturation amount so that there is no risk of it being below it (I really was going to stay out of this because I've been too stressed trying to play my own doctor.)

This is another purpose for the Sub. There are those who don't understand going on Sub after someone has been of H for 3 or 5 days. Well, it's to help with cravings and to keep people from going back on their DOC while starting a recovery program. I'm understanding this purpose more today than I ever have.

As long as your doctor will discuss your care with you, you've got a good start.

christin1225

Why? Because the battle against addiction and sobriety is in your head! Jluke, ask most anyone serious about recovery and they will tell you that they have gotten rid of their DOC. Me? I have mine, "just in case". The fact that I can't get rid of them, though, has shown just how strong of a hold my addiction still has on me.

Forgive me for being blunt but that's just plain stupid, my friend. You don't need to test yourself. Your addiction will do that sufficiently (and pray that you will be strong enough to pass).

If only you could have spent the day in my shoes, taking a parent to the oncologist from whom you used to get your oxy script. The battle that waged in my head to keep me from getting a script was tremendous! The hydros will MESS WITH YOUR HEAD, my friend, and it will only get harder to get rid of them because, as time passes, you will assure yourself that you NEED to have that net. The idea of getting rid of the net will cause you terrible anxiety. Just my experience, just my struggle.

When I kept them, I promised myself that I would just save what I had. Then, I realized that I wouldn't be able to turn down an offer for a script. That was okay, after all, I already had some and as long as I didn't actively seek out a script, it was no different. Well, I forgot that last clause and, when I was upset by something, I did call for a script, justifying it by saying that I'm not going to take them anyway. Then today, (as I mentioned) I spent all day fighting not to get my favorite script of oxys (#360!!!) from my dad's oncologist. I'm so stressed out tonight. There were times today that I wanted to say to hell with it! Who am I kidding? This is freedom? No, jluke, this is not freedom. I'm still working for it and, you can too, just do like I did... keep those pills.

Have you been to any 12-Step meetings, jluke? AA? There's something that is read at the AA meetings about giving ourselves completely to the program, half-measure avail us nothing. I can't tell you how to get to the point of flushing your pills. I can't get there. All I can do is tell you the struggles that I'm having. I believe that they are in part due to not being able to make that break with my DOC. The relationship that should have been ended wasn't ended.

I know that Jimba said that you won't be tempted to take them because of the Sub. Ummm... I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Jimba

Ahhh, I knew I liked you. You think your not tough, your tough as nails you just have just run into something bigger than what you thought and are realizing the scope of what is really happening.

NO SHAME, LADY!!!!!! ITS THE **** IT AINT YOU! BIT OF A PARADOX, BUT IT'S TRUE. I BELIEVE YOU HAVE GREAT CHARACTER, YOU JUST MADE A MISTAKE. REDEMPTION IS AT YOUR DOORSTEP, PLAY IT SMART NOT TOUGH OR MAYBE SMART AND TOUGH.


4mg is not the ceiling its 40 something. If you took 4mg you would hit the ceiling because of the half life in like a month. Thats taking info directly from the producer and extrapolating, I'm not a pharmacologist or a Dr. Just another assh0le. You can feel that C, at 8mg 70 something% of your receptors are supposed to be covered taken once a day. Some people do metabolize the drug faster, this is what you could be running into if you are having problems up your dose to what it is supposed to be to be comfortable, until you know you are properly equipped.

I feel the same way I'm beat down, better today though and tomorrow will come soon enough along with better days.

christin1225

Now THAT makes sense! It explains why the saturation doses in the beginning. All I can say is that there are a couple doctors who could benefit from this post.

Thanks for the lesson, Jimba.

Jimba

You can't begin considering the problem of defense without first understanding the problem of attack!

This could be part of what you are experiencing along with some sort of anxiety disorder.

I am not a Dr. this all anecdotal and I am just giving the next guys opinion.

Jane does it get worse from 3mg or is about the same???

jane_668

Jimba, you're doing so good.

No, it gets better. With Sub, the lower the better. At 3mgs, you'll start feeing you again but with no cravings. I felt the best ever at 2mgs. They even said that 2mgs dose can heal the receptors. But don't ask me how because I donnot know. I'm just telling what I heard. Personally, as my doses were reduced I was feeling better everyday. I would feel discomfort for the first 3/4 days then I would be feeling soo good with a clear mind. Honestly, I still miss these days as they were even better than now. Jimba from now on it will gets better. You just have to reide it through the first 3 days and don't wean down to quickly. Even if you have to cut down your dose in o.5 mgs. try to make the taperinga smooth as possible by listening to your body. Try to get down as low as possible. The hardest will be decreasing your dose below 2mgs. At that point , Don't QUIT CT. The lower you go down with your doses the less painful the wd would be after you quit.There a huge difference between going from 2 to 1mgs and from 1mgs to 0. A huge difference.

Christin, how are you doing today? Have you thought about changing your doctor. You will need a very good doctor who understands addiction. He can give you some anti-anxiety meds that are non-addictive.

christin1225

Jane,
I started thinking about switching doctors after the first month. But, none of the three in my area were accepting patients. I finally got an appointment with another doctor (for next week). He's a psychiatrist who specializes in alcoholism. To be perfectly honest, the first part of that scares me, but the second part gives me some hope. His receptionist told me that his appointments are scheduled for 30 minutes. (I teared up when I heard this.) I have all my fingers crossed.

Jimba

You're like super girl or boy for all I know. SO I am not though the worst of it but 3 to 2 should be easier. I wish the 2mg were as big as the 8s is would make this a lot easier. Cutting them in half is a breeze but quarters are going to be tough.

I'm think about dropping to 2mgs right away I have 7 days at 3mg (I think) I got tiered today and it was just crazy the way I felt like ripping heads. I gotta get this over with before I get back to work after I get too 2 then start with the halfs and quarters and chips and dust?

Thank you for keeping up

Jimba

Hope all is well today Christin.

christin1225

Thanks, Jimba. I hope that you are well too. Yesterday was emotionally tough, but I'm able to post today and say that I didn't use or drink (which was right on the line last night). I slept from 10pm - midnight. I need to get back to bed. It's 4:45 and I have to be up in an hour.

I'll check in later. Why don't you post about how you're doing. It'll give me something to read when I wake up again.

jane_668

You're most welcome my friend, Jimba.

As for the 2mg pills, I had a pill cutter. It was very easy to cut it into half. I would ,however, suggest you stay another week on 3mgs. This way you can stabalize enough so that you can spare some energy for your next dose cut. Relax and don't rush it. The easier the weaning down the less the chance for a relapse. The ultimate goal is to leanr how to live a sober clean life so that the transition to a drug free world would be easier; it is not just to detox off drugs. So it would be helpful to start going to meetings. You'll need these folks as you detox. Weaning down to 0.5mgs will make the wds less but you'll definately have to go through some sort of wds. You'll have zero energy and anxiety. Some people don't suffer any wds. It depends on the person. However, the wisest decision would be to prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best. You should start by now to have a f2f support system other than SR. Someone who can be there for you when you need to talk. Trust me, I've been through that. It's extremely helpful.

Christin sweetie , a clean day is always a good day. So yesterday was a very good day.The most important thing is that you didnot give in!!!You're still hanging in. Good for you. Just baby steps; one foot infront of the other. That's all what it takes. Don't think about tomorrow. A woman told me, "oh tomorrow is so scary. We don't guarantee that we'll even have a tomorrow. A rocket may hit Earth and we may all vanish or the Earth would warm up... why bother think about tomorrow. It's too much of a burden" So let's focus and live in today. That's all what we got. All what we can do is make a better day of today. Try to get out of yourself and do some servcie or charity work. Try to help someone you know. That will help shift your focus to someone else. Stay busy!! Don't keep thinking about your mess or how difficult it is. Remember I cannot do it but We can.

Jimba

Today is better so far, I wake up a lot during the night, I have nightmares, stormy horrible nightmare of powerlessness and water and boats, I have always had them. The drugs took care of them and now there back. They are part of who I am, just need to get used to them. Luckily I can go back to sleep right away , but a restful night would be nice. I started at one point getting up and smoking. It's funny my body began to want the nicotine each night so I would have a nightmare at exactly 1:14 and 3:30 in the morning every night. I have broke that habit no smoking at night, so the time are just her and there and normally Ill have two or three good nights of sleep.

Starting to lengthen my days too I'm waking up at 8 instead of 10. Its along way from my usual 5 am but I'll get there. If you read the wall wall street journal at all you can see how my industry is going by the article they had front page on monday. They are tearing houses down that are finished or nearly finished and taking the losses because it makes more since financially. My family is in building and it was my turn I'm 37 to make my first million. The way it looks now all my experience is worth squat for at least 10 years. Maybe I'll move to the UAE but US cache has dwindled and I'd probably be looked on as worse than a north African. Blah, Blah, Blah.

I have to go I'll write more later.

christin1225

Jimba,
I never had nightmares routinely. Whenever in withdrawal, though, I have what seem to be highly symbolic dreams. I've always been told that if humans didn't dream, we would go crazy. Because withdrawal involves so much more than the physical person, I can understand our psyches needing such an outlet to process what the brain is going through.

I'm very sorry to hear this, Jimba. I never looked to "make my first million" (I work for a municipality). I have job security. When the economy is like it is, I am the envy of many. I am very grateful.

Regarding the tapering: are you on 2mg or 3mg? I'm still waiting for my body to adjust to the 6mg and am frustrated enough that I've thought about going back up to 8mg (then I remember how it felt to be sick for almost three days when I cut it to 6mg). Grrr....