Frustration or Insensitivity?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic USA
Posts: 2,441
Originally Posted by Boudicca 
Is it strange or odd to have feelings of frustration while reading some threads/posts on SR? I am not sure why, but I am really starting to feel irritated by many of the posts I read.
However it seems not all individuals approach it from this perspective. There seems to be quite a bit of whining, excuses and such from those using a different treatment model. Also the constant relapsing is disturbing.
Is it just me? Am I being insensitive? Is there something I am not getting here?
However it seems not all individuals approach it from this perspective. There seems to be quite a bit of whining, excuses and such from those using a different treatment model. Also the constant relapsing is disturbing.
Is it just me? Am I being insensitive? Is there something I am not getting here?
IMO the Western (and particularly American) recovery model predominates, so I'm not surprised so many individuals on SR speak that language. Personally, I'm working very hard to avoid pointing out or discussing why "I" feel someone is having trouble (although, I'm not always successful at keeping myself in check). I can only offer my experience and what worked for me. I can point people to the literature and discussions that pertain to my approach. They will either take the initiative to explore the options or they won't. And of course, many of these individuals will find that one of the more common methods do work for them.
However, I will readily point out that doubling down on one's current method may not be the best approach, and that trying another option may be in order.
I was certainly on the other side of the fence, floundering around, asking why, attending meetings, trying to make some sense of the 12-Steps, working on my "recovery" in the hopes my desire for alcohol would simply disappear (or that God would take it away). But none of that worked, and I finally decided to give serious consideration to this AVRT stuff. For me, the logic behind AVRT simply made sense and fit almost perfectly with my world view and past experiences with overcoming big obstacles.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic USA
Posts: 2,441
Originally Posted by desypete
you have to learn how an alcoholic works THERE [sic] ALWAYS RIGHT : ) they know whats best for them, no one can tell them what to do or how to do it hence we learn the art of suggestions rather than telling.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by FeenixxRising
desypete, it's been my experience that addicts and alcohol abusers are in no way unique in this regard. It seems to me that most people feel they are correct, and know what's best for them, sober or not. In my experience, it's just human nature, and chemical substance abuse has nothing to do with someone's stubborn beliefs.
even with drink we try with all our might to control it as thats what we are like but we can not control it, it controls us
normaly people dont need to control there drinking same as they wouldnt go to the lengths i would of gone to just to be right
of course people can be stubborn but many people know how to stop being stubbon and let it go
i had to learn that skill same as i have to learn all basic skills that normal people have a good handle on
jealousy, controling, obsessions, anger, you name it i have no control over them all
normal people dont go around with a base ball bat to scare the hell out of others who might of parked in my parking space
they seems to have a better way of dealing with things
there are a lot of things that are human nature but then i am a human being so its hardly surprising, but its the fact all these strong powerful emotions for me as an alcoholic are all so out of line with how my friend who are not alcoholics can handle with ease
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,937
Originally Posted by Boudicca
Is it strange or odd to have feelings of frustration while reading some threads/posts on SR? I am not sure why, but I am really starting to feel irritated by many of the posts I read.
Maybe it is because using AVRT has been so easy and simple for me. I truly feel liberated from alcohol and have not found it very difficult to remain abstinent because I have decided to NEVER drink again and NEVER change my mind. This technique is incredibly effective.
Maybe it is because using AVRT has been so easy and simple for me. I truly feel liberated from alcohol and have not found it very difficult to remain abstinent because I have decided to NEVER drink again and NEVER change my mind. This technique is incredibly effective.
I certainly understand your feelings. I try not to be frustrated because we're all different. Yet I too found it very very easy to quit once I discovered AVRT. I drank like a fish for 25 years so it's not like I barely drank- believe me, things were bad!
We all have a different path. I often wonder why I have found it relatively easy to stay stopped (going on 20 months or so) while so many have struggled.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Many Thanks
I could sincerely 'Like' about every Post on this Thread. Many thanks to the OP.
I could write a Book while typing at ~80 WPM, but I'll try to contain myself. NOT! I Detoxed myself at Home. A few months later, I found and joined SR. A few months thereafter, thanks to soberlicious and others I dearly appreciate, I got around to checking out AVRT concepts. Loved it, since it synchronized well with my World View. I have to disengage periodically from the otherwise-helpful SR in order to 'keep my Eye on the Recovery Prize'. I'm 61. I sobered up at 60 after 42 years of Drinking. I don't have time to waste arguing the obvious. You can just quit.
1. When I read, as I did here last week, all-knowing lines like 'Willpower alone will never work' [to sober up] I write off temporarily what else that Person has to say. Without regrets. A wry Physics Pal has forever joked with me about the innate non-truth of any such black-and-white, 100.dot.zero percent 'truisms'. Such declarations are in the same League as Political POVs like 'ALL Liberals think thus-and-so'. Oh really? That first requires meeting all Liberals. This might take a while. From this naive premise re: Willpower, I suppose we can go on to make observations about ALL Italians or ALL Minorities of a certain type. Or, more to the point, all AA Participants are thus-and-so. Rubbish. The actual statement is more accurately put as 'Willpower alone will never work for me'. My Life is not now some Grand AV Struggle. I'm not going to make it appear more than it is for the sake of drama.
2. To a depth that's difficult to communicate, I reject the 'Fallen Angel' Model of Man endemic to many conventional Religions. As a subset of that, I reject the notion that only surrendering to some Cloud Spook can keep me from drinking. Um, no. Ironically, the Mind that conceives of a God in any manifestation is - ta da - Man [Human]-based. I am not powerless. Spare me. I will not argue this point. If that closes me off to Alt POVs I'm supposed to go to Meetings and torture myself sitting through while listening to such assertions, I'm done. That entire Model reminds me of when Women were supposed to be frail Creatures too emotional to vote, and would faint at the least little perturbation in Life.
To the contrary, me, myself and I alone summoned strength internal to me and stopped getting hammered long enough to de-Fog my innate Human power. It's been a straight-line Path from there with some not-Earth-shattering bumps. Frankly, I never tried very hard or very often to Sober up before. It simply wasn't important to me. Now, it is. I don't have innumerable Relapses under my Belt. I certainly don't take issue with those that do. Hopefully, they hit their critical point to sober up as I did. That's an individual a point as I can imagine. Why second guess the relative 'ease' of me - and others - reaching that tipping point to forever 'Firewall' Drinking? It's not as if I'm lying about it.
3. In the ongoing ~2,500 Post Thread about the 'Success Rate Of AA', it appears that one essential Statistical truth is generally overlooked. If only one UFO were ever recovered and analyzed, then UFOs exist. Period. Substantiation doesn't require that hundreds are recovered. In a like manner, if only one Person recovers via AVRT, it can no longer be dismissed as 'not viable'. AVRT doesn't become viable only when it works >51% of the time. This AA Thread had that feel to it. It reminded me of the ancient 'Ford vs. Chevy' Truck pissing contests that Testosterone-laden Guys got into in High School.
4. In some cases, the very heavy-handed Stepper Dogma being shilled tries to frame and control/define the discussion. Those who know their Boundaries and refuse to tolerate 'excess' BS are labeled as 'Resentful'. I would suggest instead that 'experienced' or 'not Weasel-like' replaces the word 'Resentfull'. This-or-that Step is invoked as some 10th Commandment and used to frame an entire Post or POV. I stop that presumptuousness in it's tracks. That Parlor Trick speaks only of the limited POV of the Critic. There's a lot of pretty marginal Amateur Psychology floating around. I don't feel 'bad' for seeing that for what it is, and calling it out. Otherwise, such invasive Forum Behavior carries on and, IMO, impedes true Recovery.
I am of the Genetic Predisposition to get good and high. I'm not a 'Normie'. I'm also not of the size or weight to ever be a Horse Jockey. Those are two equivalent, Guilt-free statements of fact. Just as erecting a Firewall against drinking again significantly eases the Mental burden, accepting my Genetic nature eases the burden. Elephants can be seen getting hammered on fermented Fruit in some YouTube Clips. So, what, do Elephants therefore have Character Flaws? Getting high, or at least drinking Wine, can be seen in Cave 'Paintings'. We're part of a long tradition.
My HP is Comedian Henny Youngman. He says it all to me about the binary choice of quitting drinking forever...
Patient, while lifting his Arm: 'Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do that'.
Doctor: 'OK, so don't do that'.
Thanks in large part to AVRT, now I don't do that. I agree that Recovery is lifelong, as is Addict_ism [being an Addict]. I'm growing weary of defending my Methods. We were married in a Buddhist Church. I've hit a nice 'Zen' on not struggling. So, I check out from SR more frequently, and am more serene for it.
I could write a Book while typing at ~80 WPM, but I'll try to contain myself. NOT! I Detoxed myself at Home. A few months later, I found and joined SR. A few months thereafter, thanks to soberlicious and others I dearly appreciate, I got around to checking out AVRT concepts. Loved it, since it synchronized well with my World View. I have to disengage periodically from the otherwise-helpful SR in order to 'keep my Eye on the Recovery Prize'. I'm 61. I sobered up at 60 after 42 years of Drinking. I don't have time to waste arguing the obvious. You can just quit.
1. When I read, as I did here last week, all-knowing lines like 'Willpower alone will never work' [to sober up] I write off temporarily what else that Person has to say. Without regrets. A wry Physics Pal has forever joked with me about the innate non-truth of any such black-and-white, 100.dot.zero percent 'truisms'. Such declarations are in the same League as Political POVs like 'ALL Liberals think thus-and-so'. Oh really? That first requires meeting all Liberals. This might take a while. From this naive premise re: Willpower, I suppose we can go on to make observations about ALL Italians or ALL Minorities of a certain type. Or, more to the point, all AA Participants are thus-and-so. Rubbish. The actual statement is more accurately put as 'Willpower alone will never work for me'. My Life is not now some Grand AV Struggle. I'm not going to make it appear more than it is for the sake of drama.
2. To a depth that's difficult to communicate, I reject the 'Fallen Angel' Model of Man endemic to many conventional Religions. As a subset of that, I reject the notion that only surrendering to some Cloud Spook can keep me from drinking. Um, no. Ironically, the Mind that conceives of a God in any manifestation is - ta da - Man [Human]-based. I am not powerless. Spare me. I will not argue this point. If that closes me off to Alt POVs I'm supposed to go to Meetings and torture myself sitting through while listening to such assertions, I'm done. That entire Model reminds me of when Women were supposed to be frail Creatures too emotional to vote, and would faint at the least little perturbation in Life.
To the contrary, me, myself and I alone summoned strength internal to me and stopped getting hammered long enough to de-Fog my innate Human power. It's been a straight-line Path from there with some not-Earth-shattering bumps. Frankly, I never tried very hard or very often to Sober up before. It simply wasn't important to me. Now, it is. I don't have innumerable Relapses under my Belt. I certainly don't take issue with those that do. Hopefully, they hit their critical point to sober up as I did. That's an individual a point as I can imagine. Why second guess the relative 'ease' of me - and others - reaching that tipping point to forever 'Firewall' Drinking? It's not as if I'm lying about it.
3. In the ongoing ~2,500 Post Thread about the 'Success Rate Of AA', it appears that one essential Statistical truth is generally overlooked. If only one UFO were ever recovered and analyzed, then UFOs exist. Period. Substantiation doesn't require that hundreds are recovered. In a like manner, if only one Person recovers via AVRT, it can no longer be dismissed as 'not viable'. AVRT doesn't become viable only when it works >51% of the time. This AA Thread had that feel to it. It reminded me of the ancient 'Ford vs. Chevy' Truck pissing contests that Testosterone-laden Guys got into in High School.
4. In some cases, the very heavy-handed Stepper Dogma being shilled tries to frame and control/define the discussion. Those who know their Boundaries and refuse to tolerate 'excess' BS are labeled as 'Resentful'. I would suggest instead that 'experienced' or 'not Weasel-like' replaces the word 'Resentfull'. This-or-that Step is invoked as some 10th Commandment and used to frame an entire Post or POV. I stop that presumptuousness in it's tracks. That Parlor Trick speaks only of the limited POV of the Critic. There's a lot of pretty marginal Amateur Psychology floating around. I don't feel 'bad' for seeing that for what it is, and calling it out. Otherwise, such invasive Forum Behavior carries on and, IMO, impedes true Recovery.
I am of the Genetic Predisposition to get good and high. I'm not a 'Normie'. I'm also not of the size or weight to ever be a Horse Jockey. Those are two equivalent, Guilt-free statements of fact. Just as erecting a Firewall against drinking again significantly eases the Mental burden, accepting my Genetic nature eases the burden. Elephants can be seen getting hammered on fermented Fruit in some YouTube Clips. So, what, do Elephants therefore have Character Flaws? Getting high, or at least drinking Wine, can be seen in Cave 'Paintings'. We're part of a long tradition.
My HP is Comedian Henny Youngman. He says it all to me about the binary choice of quitting drinking forever...
Patient, while lifting his Arm: 'Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do that'.
Doctor: 'OK, so don't do that'.
Thanks in large part to AVRT, now I don't do that. I agree that Recovery is lifelong, as is Addict_ism [being an Addict]. I'm growing weary of defending my Methods. We were married in a Buddhist Church. I've hit a nice 'Zen' on not struggling. So, I check out from SR more frequently, and am more serene for it.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
Originally Posted by trachemys
And you're right.
I frequent another forum for an activity that involves a lot of gear and gear choices. After a time, the "oldtimers" will occasionally express frustration with all the "newbies" asking the same questions over and over(and over and over and...) There's are the usual "my gear's better than your gear" threads and the occasional "you're doing it ALL WRONG" thread.
Just as in that activity, we should welcome and help every new member we get. In that other forum, new members mean a flourishing activity. And it means the same thing here.
Flourishing sobriety.
I frequent another forum for an activity that involves a lot of gear and gear choices. After a time, the "oldtimers" will occasionally express frustration with all the "newbies" asking the same questions over and over(and over and over and...) There's are the usual "my gear's better than your gear" threads and the occasional "you're doing it ALL WRONG" thread.
Just as in that activity, we should welcome and help every new member we get. In that other forum, new members mean a flourishing activity. And it means the same thing here.
Flourishing sobriety.
Boudi, it can be frustrating. But as you said - and I believe - being done forever is a totally liberating.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,454
Just like to remind you guys of whats allowed in this forum.
Please talk about the secular methods you're using all you like though 
Dee
Moderator
SR
Secular Connections
Alternatives to 12 Step Recovery
Recovery from Alcohol and Substance Abuse
LifeRing-Smart-SOS, CBT, AVRT, Problem Solving, Self Management, Self-Empowerment, Rational Thinking, Positive Lifestyle Changes, Self Assessment, Commitment and Follow-Through, Self-Acceptance, Motives and Goals, Peer Support.
12 Step Programs are off topic for this forum and posts discussing 12 Step Programs will be removed. Please use the Secular 12 Step Forum for positive topics on Secular 12 Step Recovery.
Alternatives to 12 Step Recovery
Recovery from Alcohol and Substance Abuse
LifeRing-Smart-SOS, CBT, AVRT, Problem Solving, Self Management, Self-Empowerment, Rational Thinking, Positive Lifestyle Changes, Self Assessment, Commitment and Follow-Through, Self-Acceptance, Motives and Goals, Peer Support.
12 Step Programs are off topic for this forum and posts discussing 12 Step Programs will be removed. Please use the Secular 12 Step Forum for positive topics on Secular 12 Step Recovery.
Dee
Moderator
SR
Hears The Voice
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
Originally Posted by MesaMan
... it appears that one essential Statistical truth is generally overlooked. If only one UFO were ever recovered and analyzed, then UFOs exist. Period. Substantiation doesn't require that hundreds are recovered. In a like manner, if only one Person recovers via AVRT, it can no longer be dismissed as 'not viable'. AVRT doesn't become viable only when it works >51% of the time.
I originally joined SR in 2010 under a different name. I was hoping to find some new ideas to kick the bottle, because the old ones weren't working for me. After a few weeks of essentially being told to stop living in denial and go back and do the old ones right I gave up trying to find answers here. Partially my fault for not exploring the boards more thoroughly and finding the secular connections section, but it would have been nice to have someone find me in the newcomer's forum and present me with a concept that was new and different.
Presenting newcomers with different options happens a lot more now. When I rejoined in 2013 (my head was banging and I couldn't remember my previous screen name, so I created this one) people in newcomers were mentioning "AV". Never heard that before. Freshstart57 directed me to this section for more information and it was like the door to a whole new world had opened for me. This is where the fresh ideas I needed were hiding.
Alternatives to the dominant recovery programs have come a long way. There is still work to do to gain parity, but I believe it is coming. Social change is hard and takes time. I don't see any value in denigrating other methods, though. As MesaMan said, if it helped one person ever, it's viable and shouldn't be dismissed.
Such an excellent thread.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 306
Thank you again, all. This type of discourse is EXACTLY why I decided to participate in this forum. Get's me out of my own head a little bit and maybe I can learn something.
I have done a bit of thinking about this and perhaps a little "detachment" IS in order. I need to remember that other people's $^&* is theirs to own. I don't have to own it or worry about it, nor should I. I also have complete control over how it affects me. I don't have to be frustrated or irritated, I am choosing to feel that way. I can ACCEPT these feelings then release them. I think I have identified my next mental goal.
The beauty of this is that now I have released alcohol from my life, I have the ROOM to improve many other things! How positive and wonderful that is!
I sometimes forget that growth can be painful. Thank you for reminding me.
You guys rock!
I have done a bit of thinking about this and perhaps a little "detachment" IS in order. I need to remember that other people's $^&* is theirs to own. I don't have to own it or worry about it, nor should I. I also have complete control over how it affects me. I don't have to be frustrated or irritated, I am choosing to feel that way. I can ACCEPT these feelings then release them. I think I have identified my next mental goal.
The beauty of this is that now I have released alcohol from my life, I have the ROOM to improve many other things! How positive and wonderful that is!
I sometimes forget that growth can be painful. Thank you for reminding me.
You guys rock!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 306
"It didn't help me become a better person, though. I needed so much more than to just quit drinking. I needed a plan to change my personality so that I was not impatient and judgmental. I can take the drink out of the b1tch but I was still a b1tch."
Very well said and applies to me, I think. This was helpful in leading me to identify my next mental goal. Thank you!
Very well said and applies to me, I think. This was helpful in leading me to identify my next mental goal. Thank you!
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,449
ha! I liked that quote as well. Hit home bigtime.
SO glad I found this section, stuff is resonating with me. My 60 days is on Monday and I've had A LOT of crap go on...for the first bit, the jail time alone was easy enough to smarten my arse up...but the last few weeks, I feel "stuck". Kind of like, I'm just going through the motions with no real action....
I am ordering this RR book online today.
SO glad I found this section, stuff is resonating with me. My 60 days is on Monday and I've had A LOT of crap go on...for the first bit, the jail time alone was easy enough to smarten my arse up...but the last few weeks, I feel "stuck". Kind of like, I'm just going through the motions with no real action....
I am ordering this RR book online today.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 4,225
Originally Posted by Boudicca
Thank you again, all. This type of discourse is EXACTLY why I decided to participate in this forum. Get's me out of my own head a little bit and maybe I can learn something.
I have done a bit of thinking about this and perhaps a little "detachment" IS in order. I need to remember that other people's $^&* is theirs to own. I don't have to own it or worry about it, nor should I. I also have complete control over how it affects me. I don't have to be frustrated or irritated, I am choosing to feel that way. I can ACCEPT these feelings then release them. I think I have identified my next mental goal.
The beauty of this is that now I have released alcohol from my life, I have the ROOM to improve many other things! How positive and wonderful that is!
I sometimes forget that growth can be painful. Thank you for reminding me.
You guys rock!
I have done a bit of thinking about this and perhaps a little "detachment" IS in order. I need to remember that other people's $^&* is theirs to own. I don't have to own it or worry about it, nor should I. I also have complete control over how it affects me. I don't have to be frustrated or irritated, I am choosing to feel that way. I can ACCEPT these feelings then release them. I think I have identified my next mental goal.
The beauty of this is that now I have released alcohol from my life, I have the ROOM to improve many other things! How positive and wonderful that is!
I sometimes forget that growth can be painful. Thank you for reminding me.
You guys rock!
Some posts/posters or themes that annoyed me in early recovery simply don't now. I understand you NEVER want to drink again, because that is exactly how I felt when I first stopped drinking....but let's remember - you are still very early in sobriety.
Keep an open mind. What irks you today in a post, could be a gem of insight in a month or two.
One thing I've learned in the time I am here, is to be very grateful for the brutal honesty and rawness people share here of their experiences. That is a gift and we all have our own paths and journeys to follow.
Just because someone's journey is different to yours, does not mean it's doomed to fail or is wrong....time will reveal all.
Congrats on your sober time to date!
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,449
Originally Posted by Croissant
One thing I've learned in the time I am here, is to be very grateful for the brutal honesty and rawness people share here of their experiences. That is a gift and we all have our own paths and journeys to follow.
This site is definitely full of very raw and intense emotions from everyone, and we are all so different. All at different stages on this Road to Recovery. Some will find it easier than others, some will struggle more than others. So many variables. But everyday I log on, I read at least one thing that hits me right in face like a bat.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by MesaMan
I could sincerely 'Like' about every Post on this Thread. Many thanks to the OP.
I could write a Book while typing at ~80 WPM, but I'll try to contain myself. NOT! I Detoxed myself at Home. A few months later, I found and joined SR. A few months thereafter, thanks to soberlicious and others I dearly appreciate, I got around to checking out AVRT concepts. Loved it, since it synchronized well with my World View. I have to disengage periodically from the otherwise-helpful SR in order to 'keep my Eye on the Recovery Prize'. I'm 61. I sobered up at 60 after 42 years of Drinking. I don't have time to waste arguing the obvious. You can just quit.
1. When I read, as I did here last week, all-knowing lines like 'Willpower alone will never work' [to sober up] I write off temporarily what else that Person has to say. Without regrets. A wry Physics Pal has forever joked with me about the innate non-truth of any such black-and-white, 100.dot.zero percent 'truisms'. Such declarations are in the same League as Political POVs like 'ALL Liberals think thus-and-so'. Oh really? That first requires meeting all Liberals. This might take a while. From this naive premise re: Willpower, I suppose we can go on to make observations about ALL Italians or ALL Minorities of a certain type. Or, more to the point, all AA Participants are thus-and-so. Rubbish. The actual statement is more accurately put as 'Willpower alone will never work for me'. My Life is not now some Grand AV Struggle. I'm not going to make it appear more than it is for the sake of drama.
2. To a depth that's difficult to communicate, I reject the 'Fallen Angel' Model of Man endemic to many conventional Religions. As a subset of that, I reject the notion that only surrendering to some Cloud Spook can keep me from drinking. Um, no. Ironically, the Mind that conceives of a God in any manifestation is - ta da - Man [Human]-based. I am not powerless. Spare me. I will not argue this point. If that closes me off to Alt POVs I'm supposed to go to Meetings and torture myself sitting through while listening to such assertions, I'm done. That entire Model reminds me of when Women were supposed to be frail Creatures too emotional to vote, and would faint at the least little perturbation in Life.
To the contrary, me, myself and I alone summoned strength internal to me and stopped getting hammered long enough to de-Fog my innate Human power. It's been a straight-line Path from there with some not-Earth-shattering bumps. Frankly, I never tried very hard or very often to Sober up before. It simply wasn't important to me. Now, it is. I don't have innumerable Relapses under my Belt. I certainly don't take issue with those that do. Hopefully, they hit their critical point to sober up as I did. That's an individual a point as I can imagine. Why second guess the relative 'ease' of me - and others - reaching that tipping point to forever 'Firewall' Drinking? It's not as if I'm lying about it.
3. In the ongoing ~2,500 Post Thread about the 'Success Rate Of AA', it appears that one essential Statistical truth is generally overlooked. If only one UFO were ever recovered and analyzed, then UFOs exist. Period. Substantiation doesn't require that hundreds are recovered. In a like manner, if only one Person recovers via AVRT, it can no longer be dismissed as 'not viable'. AVRT doesn't become viable only when it works >51% of the time. This AA Thread had that feel to it. It reminded me of the ancient 'Ford vs. Chevy' Truck pissing contests that Testosterone-laden Guys got into in High School.
4. In some cases, the very heavy-handed Stepper Dogma being shilled tries to frame and control/define the discussion. Those who know their Boundaries and refuse to tolerate 'excess' BS are labeled as 'Resentful'. I would suggest instead that 'experienced' or 'not Weasel-like' replaces the word 'Resentfull'. This-or-that Step is invoked as some 10th Commandment and used to frame an entire Post or POV. I stop that presumptuousness in it's tracks. That Parlor Trick speaks only of the limited POV of the Critic. There's a lot of pretty marginal Amateur Psychology floating around. I don't feel 'bad' for seeing that for what it is, and calling it out. Otherwise, such invasive Forum Behavior carries on and, IMO, impedes true Recovery.
I am of the Genetic Predisposition to get good and high. I'm not a 'Normie'. I'm also not of the size or weight to ever be a Horse Jockey. Those are two equivalent, Guilt-free statements of fact. Just as erecting a Firewall against drinking again significantly eases the Mental burden, accepting my Genetic nature eases the burden. Elephants can be seen getting hammered on fermented Fruit in some YouTube Clips. So, what, do Elephants therefore have Character Flaws? Getting high, or at least drinking Wine, can be seen in Cave 'Paintings'. We're part of a long tradition.
My HP is Comedian Henny Youngman. He says it all to me about the binary choice of quitting drinking forever...
Patient, while lifting his Arm: 'Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do that'.
Doctor: 'OK, so don't do that'.
Thanks in large part to AVRT, now I don't do that. I agree that Recovery is lifelong, as is Addict_ism [being an Addict]. I'm growing weary of defending my Methods. We were married in a Buddhist Church. I've hit a nice 'Zen' on not struggling. So, I check out from SR more frequently, and am more serene for it.
I could write a Book while typing at ~80 WPM, but I'll try to contain myself. NOT! I Detoxed myself at Home. A few months later, I found and joined SR. A few months thereafter, thanks to soberlicious and others I dearly appreciate, I got around to checking out AVRT concepts. Loved it, since it synchronized well with my World View. I have to disengage periodically from the otherwise-helpful SR in order to 'keep my Eye on the Recovery Prize'. I'm 61. I sobered up at 60 after 42 years of Drinking. I don't have time to waste arguing the obvious. You can just quit.
1. When I read, as I did here last week, all-knowing lines like 'Willpower alone will never work' [to sober up] I write off temporarily what else that Person has to say. Without regrets. A wry Physics Pal has forever joked with me about the innate non-truth of any such black-and-white, 100.dot.zero percent 'truisms'. Such declarations are in the same League as Political POVs like 'ALL Liberals think thus-and-so'. Oh really? That first requires meeting all Liberals. This might take a while. From this naive premise re: Willpower, I suppose we can go on to make observations about ALL Italians or ALL Minorities of a certain type. Or, more to the point, all AA Participants are thus-and-so. Rubbish. The actual statement is more accurately put as 'Willpower alone will never work for me'. My Life is not now some Grand AV Struggle. I'm not going to make it appear more than it is for the sake of drama.
2. To a depth that's difficult to communicate, I reject the 'Fallen Angel' Model of Man endemic to many conventional Religions. As a subset of that, I reject the notion that only surrendering to some Cloud Spook can keep me from drinking. Um, no. Ironically, the Mind that conceives of a God in any manifestation is - ta da - Man [Human]-based. I am not powerless. Spare me. I will not argue this point. If that closes me off to Alt POVs I'm supposed to go to Meetings and torture myself sitting through while listening to such assertions, I'm done. That entire Model reminds me of when Women were supposed to be frail Creatures too emotional to vote, and would faint at the least little perturbation in Life.
To the contrary, me, myself and I alone summoned strength internal to me and stopped getting hammered long enough to de-Fog my innate Human power. It's been a straight-line Path from there with some not-Earth-shattering bumps. Frankly, I never tried very hard or very often to Sober up before. It simply wasn't important to me. Now, it is. I don't have innumerable Relapses under my Belt. I certainly don't take issue with those that do. Hopefully, they hit their critical point to sober up as I did. That's an individual a point as I can imagine. Why second guess the relative 'ease' of me - and others - reaching that tipping point to forever 'Firewall' Drinking? It's not as if I'm lying about it.
3. In the ongoing ~2,500 Post Thread about the 'Success Rate Of AA', it appears that one essential Statistical truth is generally overlooked. If only one UFO were ever recovered and analyzed, then UFOs exist. Period. Substantiation doesn't require that hundreds are recovered. In a like manner, if only one Person recovers via AVRT, it can no longer be dismissed as 'not viable'. AVRT doesn't become viable only when it works >51% of the time. This AA Thread had that feel to it. It reminded me of the ancient 'Ford vs. Chevy' Truck pissing contests that Testosterone-laden Guys got into in High School.
4. In some cases, the very heavy-handed Stepper Dogma being shilled tries to frame and control/define the discussion. Those who know their Boundaries and refuse to tolerate 'excess' BS are labeled as 'Resentful'. I would suggest instead that 'experienced' or 'not Weasel-like' replaces the word 'Resentfull'. This-or-that Step is invoked as some 10th Commandment and used to frame an entire Post or POV. I stop that presumptuousness in it's tracks. That Parlor Trick speaks only of the limited POV of the Critic. There's a lot of pretty marginal Amateur Psychology floating around. I don't feel 'bad' for seeing that for what it is, and calling it out. Otherwise, such invasive Forum Behavior carries on and, IMO, impedes true Recovery.
I am of the Genetic Predisposition to get good and high. I'm not a 'Normie'. I'm also not of the size or weight to ever be a Horse Jockey. Those are two equivalent, Guilt-free statements of fact. Just as erecting a Firewall against drinking again significantly eases the Mental burden, accepting my Genetic nature eases the burden. Elephants can be seen getting hammered on fermented Fruit in some YouTube Clips. So, what, do Elephants therefore have Character Flaws? Getting high, or at least drinking Wine, can be seen in Cave 'Paintings'. We're part of a long tradition.
My HP is Comedian Henny Youngman. He says it all to me about the binary choice of quitting drinking forever...
Patient, while lifting his Arm: 'Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do that'.
Doctor: 'OK, so don't do that'.
Thanks in large part to AVRT, now I don't do that. I agree that Recovery is lifelong, as is Addict_ism [being an Addict]. I'm growing weary of defending my Methods. We were married in a Buddhist Church. I've hit a nice 'Zen' on not struggling. So, I check out from SR more frequently, and am more serene for it.
why ?
what has aa done to you that makes you hate it with so much passion ?
all i can say is sorry to you if aa has done you wrong i know aa way of life is to just be there to help if people want it if not there free to find there own way.
one question i have is do you teach your methods and include anti aa feelings ?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 306
Originally Posted by Croissant
Boudicca, I can certainly relate to your frustrations etc....but remember, early recovery is still a very emotional time. Regardless of what program we follow, our thoughts, emotions and responses are still adjusting to the removal of our "drug of choice".
Some posts/posters or themes that annoyed me in early recovery simply don't now. I understand you NEVER want to drink again, because that is exactly how I felt when I first stopped drinking....but let's remember - you are still very early in sobriety.
Keep an open mind. What irks you today in a post, could be a gem of insight in a month or two.
One thing I've learned in the time I am here, is to be very grateful for the brutal honesty and rawness people share here of their experiences. That is a gift and we all have our own paths and journeys to follow.
Just because someone's journey is different to yours, does not mean it's doomed to fail or is wrong....time will reveal all.
Congrats on your sober time to date!
Some posts/posters or themes that annoyed me in early recovery simply don't now. I understand you NEVER want to drink again, because that is exactly how I felt when I first stopped drinking....but let's remember - you are still very early in sobriety.
Keep an open mind. What irks you today in a post, could be a gem of insight in a month or two.
One thing I've learned in the time I am here, is to be very grateful for the brutal honesty and rawness people share here of their experiences. That is a gift and we all have our own paths and journeys to follow.
Just because someone's journey is different to yours, does not mean it's doomed to fail or is wrong....time will reveal all.
Congrats on your sober time to date!
I do understand the concept of adjusting to the neurological changes that take place as my brain begins to heal itself. I am familiar with the PAWS phenomenon and I surely experience some of those effects. The brain science surrounding this phenomenon is well documented and I have done my research I assure you.
"I understand you NEVER want to drink again, because that is exactly how I felt when I first stopped drinking....but let's remember - you are still very early in sobriety."
This comment seems to imply that because I only recovered from alcohol a short time ago that I am somehow "doomed" to fail. RR teaches that time is irrelevant. We don't count days or talk about sober time or early sobriety.
This statement implies my thoughts and opinions are not valid and should not be trusted. It intimates that I do not have the strength and power within me to succeed. That diminishes me and the power of my mind. I categorically reject this thinking and respectfully disagree with your assessment of my situation. I mean, honestly, DO YOU WANT ME TO RELAPSE? Just because you experienced things a certain way doesn't mean that I will. We are all unique and as such our experiences must necessarily be so. Frankly, just because others choose to relapse over and over doesn't mean that I will. How can I relapse if I will NEVER drink again and NEVER change my mind. The Final Decision has been made. It's done. I'm free.
I don't believe I am "in recovery." I believe I am RECOVERED. This is an important distinction. I don't believe in the concept of "sobriety" or "recovery." I don't believe it is a process; at least not a process in which I choose to participate.
Either one is drinking or one is abstinent. I have chosen permanent abstinence FOREVER. RR and AVRT describe recovery as an event, not a process. I have set my confidence level at 100% and I know I will succeed because I have succeeded.
This is the beauty of AVRT......this technique or "thinking tool" eliminates the need for the concepts of sobriety, recovery, etc. It set us free from having to carry "sobriety" around for the rest of our lives. IT WORKS and that seems to threaten a lot of people.
Again, thank you for your comments. I am sure you mean well and that is what I will choose to believe.
Have a wonderful holiday.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 306
Originally Posted by neferkamichael
Boudicca, sounds like your whining about people whining. 
I welcome constructive criticism, Michael. Do you have any?
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Playing By The Rules
Desypete ~
I Mod a few other Pages elsewhere, and am keen on sticking to the Rules here as Dee gently reminded us of above. Your Post inadvertently moves this discussion to the personal - vs. discussing general Program Concepts - with the 'you' in this sentence: 'what has aa done to you that makes you hate it with so much passion ?' A1: It's done nothing. A2: I don't 'hate' any Program.
I passionately believe that when any Program denigrates the Human Potential and causes Folks to question their own abilities to manage to permanent Sobriety their own Recovery, those presuppositions need to be rigorously challenged at the most fundamental level in a safe Venue like this one. Bottom Line: my Post resonated with some here. The Human Potential to heal innately within ourselves is a concept I will continue to be passionate about.
BTW, as a Pal says, I'm in 'Violent Agreement' with something you posted the other day to the effect that 'I'm short...', and you mentioned a few other Characteristics that aren't 'choices'. Well said. I took this to align with my POV that we all have certain Characteristics, including Addictive tendencies. Accepting one's Genetic Predispositions while scrapping the 'damaged Goods' assumptions intrinsic to the 'Fallen Angel' Model eases an Addict into a Life unencumbered by daily AV-type battles that must be exhausting. AVRT does this for me and, apparently, others. I strive to not proselytize about any given Method because that's as welcome as Religious Zealots at a Front Door on a Sunday morning. 'Water seeks it's own level', as the old saying goes, and Folks find their own successful Sobriety Model. Nothing succeeds like success.
The Masthead of a small Colorado Mountain Town Newspaper says it well:
'You hear what you want to hear. You see what you want to see'.
I Mod a few other Pages elsewhere, and am keen on sticking to the Rules here as Dee gently reminded us of above. Your Post inadvertently moves this discussion to the personal - vs. discussing general Program Concepts - with the 'you' in this sentence: 'what has aa done to you that makes you hate it with so much passion ?' A1: It's done nothing. A2: I don't 'hate' any Program.
I passionately believe that when any Program denigrates the Human Potential and causes Folks to question their own abilities to manage to permanent Sobriety their own Recovery, those presuppositions need to be rigorously challenged at the most fundamental level in a safe Venue like this one. Bottom Line: my Post resonated with some here. The Human Potential to heal innately within ourselves is a concept I will continue to be passionate about.
BTW, as a Pal says, I'm in 'Violent Agreement' with something you posted the other day to the effect that 'I'm short...', and you mentioned a few other Characteristics that aren't 'choices'. Well said. I took this to align with my POV that we all have certain Characteristics, including Addictive tendencies. Accepting one's Genetic Predispositions while scrapping the 'damaged Goods' assumptions intrinsic to the 'Fallen Angel' Model eases an Addict into a Life unencumbered by daily AV-type battles that must be exhausting. AVRT does this for me and, apparently, others. I strive to not proselytize about any given Method because that's as welcome as Religious Zealots at a Front Door on a Sunday morning. 'Water seeks it's own level', as the old saying goes, and Folks find their own successful Sobriety Model. Nothing succeeds like success.
The Masthead of a small Colorado Mountain Town Newspaper says it well:
'You hear what you want to hear. You see what you want to see'.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
