soberlicious

Invent away...
but I'm thinking that it's like being "a little pregnant" ya know? You either are, or you aren't.

Actually I have heard of people making short term plans, ie "I will not drink for two weeks and read RR" and the like. A Small Plan? I know it is how some people start out.

1newcreation

Its the allergy we have bro! Obsession of the mind & craving of the body
Play the whole tape through...its not a preety pic afterward

ReadyAndAble

A semi-BP? Now you're living up to your name, lol...

RobbyRobot

Interesting thread, eh! Cool.

I totally agree with the "little bit pregnant" analogy - a BP is or it isn't. Nothing substitutes for "I now will never drink alcohol again." The other added part, "and I'll never change my mind" is unrequired from an AVRT view, but good fun, so why not, eh?!! Some throw that in too.

Thanks for your sincere shares, soberlicious. And frankly, its refreshing truth be told talking with you. And thanks RAA, same thing.

I'm still of a different view here about saying never, and then returning to drinking anyways. Never means never, and when never doesn't come true, something has to answer for that reality. Sure, I said never and went back to drinking in my day too, but I would also accept I didn't really mean never, and in fact, I would also agree I didn't even mean really quit. I really actually meant just quit between drinks which really finally means controlled drinking. I'm not seeking agreement, I'm just saying how it was and still is for me.

So it's not like I want to disagree for a purpose, its just when I finally did really mean it on July 22 1981, I've not returned to drinking. As for separation, and learning of AVRT, like already said, AVRT didn't come to be until 1986. So...what does that mean to me when you guys say you really meant to quit forever, just you didn't know about separation until AVRT spoke to you like it does today? And yet you think you did some kind of AVRT even though it failed to achieve AV recognition? -- when the only function AVRT ever does is create AV recognition!

It's not that I don't believe you, its that I can't agree that AVRT wasn't working for you even when you didn't know about AVRT proper. As has been said a million times, AVRT is as old as the hills, and has been used for centuries already.

I achieved separation because I had actually created a BP, as is now described in AVRT as written by Jack Trimpey, and I had no present knowledge of AVRT.

BP's work not because Jack has explained it so well in his books; they work because one actually can achieve separation by creating a BP.

So for me, that's how it sits. Quit means quit. Never means never. When that doesn't happen, something is not wholly squared away... and that something is not missing recognition, is my experience.

No big deal. It's not like we all have to agree... thanks for a great thread, Nonsensical!

ReadyAndAble

Yeah, it's all good Rob. AVRT's as old as the hills, but seems like it came more intuitively to some folks than others. I wonder if the difference in our experiences is an example of that? In any event, that brings me back full circle to Trimpey. Whatever criticisms I might have, his articulation of these techniques brought a new level of confidence and contentment to my recovery. Maybe I would have reached that place anyway, but I feel his handiwork sped things up at the very least.

Nonsensical

Not if I was living by my semi-Big Plan.

Just more mental rambling, but what if...

I made a Slightly Larger than Average Plan - My S.L.A.P. My SLAP is that one day a year I am going to treat my beast to a night of drinking. One day each year I set it up so that in a safe, self-contained location I can drink until I pass out (which would not be required, but is what would most likely occur). Any time I contemplated drinking on a different day I could easily identify as AV,and disregard because I have my SLAP and my AV can't make me violate my SLAP.

Not that I think it's in any way a GOOD plan. Not really what anyone could call a healthy relationship with alcohol there. ("Hey, Non, wanna get a cup of coffee next Wednesday?" "Sorry, I can't. I promised my beast we'd get sh1tfaced that day.") But in theory one could apply the tools and techniques of addictive voice recognition to a project/plan other than total lifetime abstinence.

I woke up at 2 a.m.and I am having all kinds of thoughts I didn't mean to have. I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks after getting more rest.

GerandTwine

Describe the occasion and go into more detail about the "regret".

RobbyRobot

My experience is this indeed works well right up until it doesn't. Without total lifetime abstinence, its much like arranging the deck chairs just so on the 1912 maiden voyage of the Titantic.

The techniques themselves employed certainly would somewhat help, but sometimes with a return to drinking, help can be too little too late, and serious consequences can keep a guy drinking for years before they attempt to come up for air again. Myself, I struggled for six years playing musical chairs before I finally did the forever thing.

soberlicious

Indeed you did...but remember, not everyone can be as awesome as you

I will echo (again, cuz I already echoed it once) what RAA said, for me, it is my firm belief that it was not that my intent was not sincere to never drink again, but my inability (from lack of knowledge) of how to identify and dismiss AV. I must have had some degree of separation that occured innately though, because I'm thinking that surely over the course of 10 years I would have had some beast activity that I dismissed. I just didn't/couldn't identify it as such. I can tell you this, had I understood then how to separate I would not have started drinking again. I thought those thoughts were me. I thought I had made a conscious decision to return to drinking, but looking back I see that IT gained control again because I had no knowledge of IT.

So, Robby, you can analyze my experience and say that the faux BP was the problem. I also had fellowship members analyze and say the problem was not maintaining spiritual fitness that brought me back to the bottle. I say it was ignorance of the AV concept. I suppose it's a possibility there may be some truth found in any and all of those things. I honestly don't know, except that I know it's different this time. So different that it's like I don't have the words to describe it. And it was different this time, still with no knowledge of AVRT...I dunno...but I am glad I know what I know now.

Nonsensical

I've been making a mental list of the pros and cons (for ME) to my SLAP as written. I can only come up with cons for me. So, while the SLAP is theoretically possible, the cost-benefit analysis falls flat. It's all risk, no reward.

Not to mention the utter pointlessness of gifting yourself with something that has been ruining your life. That'd be like rewarding yourself for fixing up your house by vandalizing it.

I still like the mental exercise of thinking through it, though. It may also prove ultimately useful. If anything, it paints the BP as a more obvious destination.

ReadyAndAble

Nonsensical, I think this internal debate is the reason why the BP is all or nothing. If you grant your addiction one day a year, you live with it the other 364. And I think you've also hit on what for me was an incredibly powerful breakthrough: realizing that sobriety was the real reward.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, I can understand what you're saying here, no problemo. I'm sorry if it's coming across I'm analysing, since I'm certainly not thinking that of you in that kind of cold way analysis brings to the table. I have no better answer then you do, I'm just talking with you.

The AV concept in AVRT is that AV is the sole cause of the addiction itself. If you didn't generally know of that idea in real-time experiences back then whenever, then certainly the outcome would be grim no matter our present understandings of looking back to whatever.

I'm glad you have a different understanding now too.

ReadyAndAble

Which part? Thinking I might never escape? Checking my eyes for signs of jaundice? Knowing I was failing to meet my responsibilities as a father? Feeling my whole life was a sham? Feeling like a fake human being?

Nah. I'd rather focus on the present, and how grateful I am those days are behind me.

RobbyRobot

soberlicious

No apology necessary. I don't see analyzing in that way....maybe because I'm a teacher and I see the process of breaking something down to examine it's parts more closely an important life skill. My little ones in the classroom effectively analyze all the time, although they aren't yet able to name it as such.

Of course I analyze my own return to drinking after so many years in an effort to find an answer, to not allow that to happen again, but the truth is, while I welcome and consider multiple analyses...in the end, it is my final analysis and how I rectify the problem that matters for me.

GerandTwine

Please read my last request again. I'm not asking you to report anything about while you were under the influence.

What were you thinking and feeling at the very moment you started swallowing ethanol after the first "quit drinking "forever"" plan?

Weasel1966

I have been reading this thread and thinking a lot. Some heady stuff here folks. And simple lessons as well. As always from this crowd

I get a bunch of what was said. Allow me to highlight those thoughts that I will take away.

Thoughts, while about drinking, are not always the beast but rather our sane brain making logical observations or distinctions. For me that's a hair left split by a barber. I don't do hair!

Alcoholism becomes the paramount desire that will trample all other desires in its quest.

Small big plans are not as effective in the long run as big small plans.

You cannot be a little bit pregnant. ( that one threw me a bit. Had to think about it.)

I must use maladaptive more often in casual conversation.

English prose is still an art medium.

My beast can "farm" only in fertile ground.

Soberlicous wont be stealing those lovely red patent leather slingbacks that would look amazing on her beautiful feet and slender ankles.... If I do say so myself.

RR does not complain.

Anal is not a bad word.... That's still debatable in my circles.

Internal debate is a sign or indication to recommit to the BP. It's not a conversation. It's a statement.

That a conversation among us can be respectful and insightful.

Thanks!

MyFitz

I've never done cocaine. As a binGe DriNKing victim, would I already be an cocaine addict or would it have to develop? Would my already present and well matured Beast take it on or would I have dueling Beasts competing and directing me to "get on it right away?"
The more I read, the more I see I need to read.

trachemys

MyFitz: I don't know why but, I was able to give up drugs easily, years ago. I think it was the fear of getting busted. I do remember this: I quit coke after only a couple of uses. When I got started on it, I wouldn't stop until it was all gone. My Beast loved coke from the first line. It really, really scared me.

ReadyAndAble

Please read my last response again. That was was a long time ago, and I'm not sure I'd trust my memory enough to tell you what I was thinking at a particular moment yesterday, let alone back then.

What matters is that was then, this is now. I like being here now.