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Is it ALWAYS the beast?

Old 03-08-2013, 04:05 PM
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Quit means quit. Never means never. When that doesn't happen, something is not wholly squared away... and that something is not missing recognition, is my experience.
yes, was my experience with myself, too. not missing recognition of AV, anyway. missing recognition of who i was, though.

and then i wonder, from a point of ignorance about AVRT proper, how, really, it ismuch different from someone else saying"ah, there's me again, having alcoholically insane thoughts!" ?
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:22 PM
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As usual, a brilliant discussion.

It's continuing to build my confidence that I will never drink again. And before I get pulled up about 'continuing to build my confidence...": I'm one of those for whom AVRT / BP does not seem to come to me so intuitively, immediately.

For me, the technique is very much like the 'practice' of stuff like mindfulness meditation...
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:16 PM
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I agree with that, BeMySelf, about mindfulness. I first learned about mindfulness while I was still drinking, and it helped me a bit with my anxiety and depression. Like my anti D medications, though, nothing really helped my whole situation until the drinking stopped.

It wasn't for some months that the penny dropped and I understood that the recognition aspect of AVRT was simply a specific instance of mindfulness. Eckhart Tolle helped a lot with that understanding by showing how 'becoming the watcher' inserts that space around our thoughts. It is this space which permits an awareness without action.

For me the practice of mindfulness is the return of my consciousness back to my focus after becoming aware of the presence of thoughts and accepting that presence. The practice of AVRT is the return of my consciousness back to my Big Plan after becoming aware of the presence of my Beast and accepting that presence, or at least becoming indifferent.

That sort of recognition is just what I needed to learn to allow me to use AVRT effectively. Awareness and recognition, acceptance without action following separation from the ego-self, and a Big Plan informing all aspects.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Quit means quit. Never means never. When that doesn't happen, something is not wholly squared away... and that something is not missing recognition, is my experience.
Well, yes, obviously something is not wholly squared away, but I'm curious as to why you think it may not be missing recognition of the AV that could throw a cog in the machine? I think missing recognition is huge. Within AVRT, that's how the beast gains control.
Chapter 13 of RR:The New Cure talks about drinking in violation of the BP. This discussion got me thinking about it, so it was an interesting reread for me.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:21 PM
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Fresh, When I quit, I started reading and learning about Buddhism. The practice of mindfulness was huge for me, in all areas of my life, but especially for filling in that "not me" and recognition/separation piece that I was missing previously (on the first quit). What interested me about AVRT initially was how closely it mirrored the practice of mindfulness. Thank you for your post.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:02 PM
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Yay, now we turn to philosophy! When I encountered AVRT it reminded me of my beloved Stoics. Such as my good buddy Epictetus here:

People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Epictetus
People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.
Yes! Much like the Buddhist thinking...it's not the desire itself that causes suffering, but rather the attachment to the desire. It is in the grasping that we experience suffering.
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Well, yes, obviously something is not wholly squared away, but I'm curious as to why you (Robby) think it may not be missing recognition of the AV that could throw a cog in the machine? I think missing recognition is huge. Within AVRT, that's how the beast gains control.
Chapter 13 of RR:The New Cure talks about drinking in violation of the BP. This discussion got me thinking about it, so it was an interesting reread for me.
Yeah, its a good read.

Ah, its simple on the one hand to explain myself, and potentially complicated on the other if I'm not careful of the different reader's take in an open forum . Precision is everything. I'll have a good response to this in my thread later today, since this ties in neatly with the purposes of my thread.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:05 AM
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“Caretake this moment. Immerse yourself in its particulars. Respond to this person, this challenge, this deed. Quit evasions. Stop giving yourself needless trouble. It is time to really live; to fully inhabit the situation you happen to be in now.”
-Epictetus
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:39 PM
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Haha, more Epictetus! Nice one, fresh. The dude rocked. Former slave too... kind of like us.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:28 AM
  # 91 (permalink)  
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This past weekend my wife and I had a nice chat over Sunday breakfast about numerous things - to include, of course, my drinking problem(s). One of the issues that came up was her frustration that she feels like she can't keep wine in the house because of me. She would like to have wine in the house for her occasional use, but fears it would trigger me into a binge.

I didn't comment on her remark, letting the conversation roll into another topic. Been thinking about it ever since, though. Not continuously, but my mind keeps coming back to it.

I would love to tell her to go ahead and stock the (conspicuously empty) wine rack and wine refrigerator in our kitchen. She's put up with a lot of crap from me for 22 years, and I'd like to give her everything she wants. But I don't think I should go down that road at this time.

There's a chance I would drink some, lighting that fuse. I think it's a small chance, but I can't totally discount it.

What's more likely is that I will have to listen to my AV all evening long saying, "There's wine in the kitchen, There's wine in the kitchen,
There's wine in the kitchen,
There's wine in the kitchen,
There's wine in the kitchen,
There's wine in the kitchen,
There's wine in the kitchen,
There's wine in the kitchen,
There's wine in the kitchen,
There's wine in the kitchen, "
etc.

I can only imagine how pleasant I would be to be around after dealing with that for hours on end.

I'd like to get to the place where she can have wine in the house, but for now I don't want to deal with it.

Should I let the sleeping conversation alone, or should I explain this all to my wife?
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:58 AM
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Hey non.

Telling her sets the time clock rolling. She will have it in her head that at some future point she can have wine in the house. That is probably true... At some point. But the point is when you decide not her. This can also be used as a measuring stick by her. Maybe not intentionally but she will wonder how well you are doing if she cannot still have the wine in the house. Something you said can be done... At some point.

So... IMHO... Say nothing until the actual time you feel you can. No one gets disappointed. No expectations had been set.

K
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:13 AM
  # 93 (permalink)  
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hm...i'd be inclined to ask for her help.
i'd say that this is all new to me, and i wouldn't expect her to understand just how that is, or how long "new" can be, but that i'm not feeling on solid ground and could she help me make it more solid by helping me have a safe space at home that's alcohol-free for now to counterbalance the possibly-not-entirely-safe-space that's your head.
and yeah, i'd put it in terms of "help me, please". cause that's what it is.


and i've been thinking about your SLAP.

what that is is moderation-attempt. trying to control what i finally understood i could not and didn't want to control.
you put it in terms of "not exactly a healthy relationship with alcohol" or something similar, and sure, that's true.
but the REAL point, in my opinion, is that it keeps THE relationship going.
all the time; every day.
you can't stop having a relationship when you're waiting for the rendezvous.
you can't be done that way.
it's no different qualitatively from "weekends only", "only at night" or all the other various limitations we tried.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:16 AM
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Having wine in the house or not won't change the chatter from your Beast much, is my thinking on it. Since your Beast knows what you're NOW thinking and feeling, IT knows your not sure you could resist drinking if the wine rack was stocked. That knowledge is enough to have it attack you relentlessly eventually anyways, playing on the idea that certain conditions could lead you back to drinking.

Why is it you're not ready yet to have wine in the house but you will someday be ready? What qualifies as the ready point?

I'm not suggesting either way you should have wine stocked. My own home is alcohol-free, fwiw.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:25 AM
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Her actions tell me that her help is already being given. I think she brought it up to make sure I knew she would prefer to have wine in the house, but wasn't in order to support me.

The SLAP is definitely a form of moderation from daily usage. I've never attempted Alcoholic Voice Recognition-based moderation, but notice I didn't give an example SLAP that involved social drinking without drunkenness.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Why is it you're not ready yet to have wine in the house but you will someday be ready?
It is aspirational.
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
What qualifies as the ready point?
It's like the difference between porn and art - I can't describe it, but I'll know it when I see it.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:21 AM
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I think it took about 3 months untill i felt well practaiced enough so that my geographical proximity to alcohol didn't bug me .

In the end i thought i have money in my pocket i live a 4 min walk from a supermarket with 1000's of bottles in it, if i'm going to drink it is right there .

This year i had a bottle of irish cream whiskey hidden under the bed for mums christmass present , it was'nt a big deal . I knew where the sink and recycle box are if became one , if i were ever mad enough to drink again i'd be able to get hold of it swiftly , kitchen , pub , supermarket , corner shop or 24 hour garage .

If it were me i'd not say much at the moment untill you know it isn't an issue .

Bestwishes, M
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
I can't describe it, but I'll know it when I see it.
That's how it was for me, Nons. I live with my 8-year-old daughter, so the fridge was not a problem. But I stayed well away from concerts, social events at bars, etc. in the early days.

AVRT purists will argue that indicates a lack of confidence, actually a form of AV. At which point I will remind AVRT purists that I successfully navigated those early days, now go to bars all the time without the slightest discomfort, and am not really looking for an argument.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:15 PM
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I had been in my rehab less then a week, still detoxing, and my older brother visted me, took me to the local restaurant, and ordered himself and me a beer. wow.

This was his way of support back when. We still don't get along. He still drinks, although he "officially moderates"

At the time, I could clearly see how I had already changed this time around about quitting. He was dumbfounded when I didn't drink up his offer. He drank his, and I had a coffee. He even orderd my brand of choice being back then "Labatt's Blue", lol.

I learned alot about myself and my alcoholism/Beast that day. I learned, actually re-affirmed, I was seriously going to not drink ever again.

I thought he was being a regular jerk, but not his fault, he really didn't then, and still dosen't know what is what about alcoholism addiction and recovery/non-drinking.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
That's how it was for me, Nons. I live with my 8-year-old daughter, so the fridge was not a problem. But I stayed well away from concerts, social events at bars, etc. in the early days.

AVRT purists will argue that indicates a lack of confidence, actually a form of AV. At which point I will remind AVRT purists that I successfully navigated those early days, now go to bars all the time without the slightest discomfort, and am not really looking for an argument.
Yeah. They would, lol. Awesome, RAA. Well done.
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