DayTrader

Sorry u see it that way.... I still don't. Open mind perhaps?

And again, THIS THREAD isn't the place to debate BB passages.

Terminally Unique

I will grant that this thread is getting a little off-topic with the BB passages in general, but certain people do keep quoting them.

wellwisher

Well, TU, people die from this disease. That is not a secret, and unfortunately, I know that to be true personally; in my own family. If I were to follow your logic, I should be blaming Anheuser Busch for manufacturing Budweiser beer and selling it without warning labels, just like people do with the tobacco companies because they made a choice to pick up a cigarette, smoke incessantly for years, and then blame the people who made the cancer sticks for their lousy decisions.

To blame a treatment program for that death is quite a stretch. For every experience you describe, I can counteract it with at least twenty success stories.

Your lens in looking at AA in not untainted. You certainly have a bias, which I can respect, but when on a thread about discussing the differences between methodologies, you have crossed the line. You have gone from discussing the differences to prostelyzing.

We are alcoholics - not idiots. You have made your point in no uncertain terms several times, and have clearly stated that you will never forgive AA on other threads.

That is not the same thing as saying that I am not grateful for AVRT and alternative treatment methods. They didn't exist when I got sober. Your threads about your methodology and concepts is extremely interesting, informative and helpful to newcomers. I think it fair to highlight differences in methodologies between the two programs, but to paint AA members as lemmings or shepherds bringing the flocks to slaughter is ludicrous.

Actually, a thought does come to my mind. Over and over again, I see people on the AVRT threads saying, "I am not powerless over anything", "I don't believe in a Higher Power", "I will never let my sobriety fall into the hands of a Group of Drunks". Therein lies the key to why AA won't work for them. They don't want to check their ego at the door. They do not want to give up self-will. And that is fine; it is not a judgement. THEN PICK ANOTHER METHOD.

I would hope anyone reading this makes an informed decision about their recovery method. Threads like this are good until they cross the line....

Moving on....

Sapling

I have to agree...Nicely put WW...

stugotz

You say tom-A-to, I say tom-AA-to". Just sayin....

Terminally Unique

I don't think so. The doctrine of personal powerlessness over desire literally disables some people, sending them on a free-fall to the abyss.

You don't need to respect my opinion, wellwisher, or even pretend that you do, but proselytizing? I am well aware, and will readily admit, that AVRT will probably never suit a large number of people. It is too individualistic, too absolute, and that won't do for many. I've actually had this discussion in private with OnlyTheTruth before -- some people simply want those groups, and there are plenty of them out there, secular or otherwise. Unlike that 'constitutionally incapable' disclaimer, though, the RR book actually states that if you aren't ready to quit along the lines proposed, to put the book away, and it doesn't predict suffering and death for dissenters.

I don't believe this of AA members, wellwisher, but nobody seems to want to rock the boat in AA, either, even when warranted. Many members intentionally and systematically set up coercion schemes that use the power of the state to swell its ranks, for example, and hardly anyone bats an eye. I know, not only because I was forced to attend on account of such a coercion scheme myself, but because I later saw one 'in action' from the AA side. I know how it works.

Fifty percent of people who attend AA are forced to do so, by court orders, which are backed by guns, and many members are all too eager to assist. Once in the rooms, people will never be told that there is any other way out of the trap, and that AA is 'the last house on the block'. I hope no one gives me the old 'that is a group conscience issue' excuse with regard to the court slip signing business -- it is disingenuous. For the record, I applaud those groups out there that have chosen not to participate in this sort of thing, which shows that at least some people in AA know that this is just plain wrong.

wpainterw

Well, all I have to say is that there is an addiction going on here. An addiction to beating a dead horse, engaging in the endless debate over the merits of AA versus AVRT, venting what appears to be a great deal of anger at AA. I'm sure that for newcomers this must be confusing. For their sake, shouldn't we (who profess to know it all!) back off a bit and moderate our approach so as to say simply, "Try what you think might work for you. Try it in the way which seems comfortable (but be careful- that hidden part of your brain may be all too eager to trip you up!). Reach out your hand for all the support you need and which may be there waiting for you. And, whether or not you believe in a God, a "Higher Power", AA, AVRT or something else, may our very best wishes go with you every step of the way, a perilous journey which can end in the sunlight of recovery".

W.

Ranger

Jesus, TU, let it go. Your ego and insufferable need to be perceived as right are smothering.

Sapling

This is the part I don't get...Maybe it has to do with the fact that the program of AA saved my life....I guess that's enough.

RobbyRobot

Well, this thread would be best served to be locked now that things are getting into personalities and so on.

DayTrader

Yup..... I saw that coming yesterday afternoon.

There was some good stuff in this thread. Perhaps it's all been discussed enough........ for now.

PaperDolls

TU, I really do respect your opinion but Ranger has a point here.

stugotz

Just visited the AVRT website and found this short passage.

Below is a comprehensive, 200-word description of AVRT, providing enough information for you to end your addiction, right now.


Observe your thoughts and feelings, positive and negative, about drinking or using. Thoughts and feelings which support continued use are called the Addictive Voice (AV); those which support abstinence are you. When you recognize and understand your AV, it becomes not-you, but "it," an easily-defeated enemy that has been causing you to drink. All it wants is pleasure. "I want a drink," becomes, "It wants a drink." Think to yourself, "I will never drink again," and listen for its reaction. Your negative thoughts and feelings are your AV talking back to you. Now, think, "I will drink/use whenever I please." Your pleasant feelings are also the AV, which is in control. Recovery is not a process; it is an event. The magic word is "Never," as in, "I will never drink/use again." Recognition defeats short-term desire, and abstinence soon becomes effortless. Complete separation of "you" from "it" leads to complete recovery and hope for a better life. The only time you can drink is now, and the only time you can quit for good is right now. "I will never drink/use again," becomes, "I never drink now." It's not hard; anyone can do it.


Doesnt sound too much different from the common sense approach of AA. Especially the last sentence. Nothing new. But then what do I know?. Im just a drunk. Just sayin...

michelle01

Dee seems to be having a break right now which he is entitled to, otherwise I think he would've closed this thread. Not a great example to newcomers guys and don't think this is the place for it.

wpainterw

Sorry Sapling that you "don't get" what I was saying. Are you saying that the program of AA saved your life or that I said it saved my life and that that's something that puzzles you? Well anyway, I'm here and the sun is shining, the buds on the old cherry tree on the back deck are starting to come out, the little dog is happy out there with all his toys. And I'm not drinking. That's enough for me. Yes, that's really enough for me.....

W.

Terminally Unique

Arguably, the Newcomer's forum may not be the best place for the latter half of this thread, but I will never understand this need to clamor for shutting down discussion from some people. RR does not object to criticism, and actually welcomes it. They have routinely published "Objections to Rational Recovery" on their web site, and in the Journal of Rational Recovery. Their greatest contribution to the addictions field may indeed be this openness to criticism. They were the first organization to provide a large-scale, non-12-Step recovery model, against substantial odds, and I very much doubt any of the 'AA alternatives' would even exist today were it not for the work they did, and for their insistence on open discussion.

Anna

TU, it could could be that other organizations/boards do not object to criticism, but our Rule at SR is to "Agree to Disagree".

DayTrader

That's my MAIN point...

I don't think there's anything wrong with even spirited emotionally charged discussions....... so long as all parties have the ability to be mature and somewhat open about it. What can come from those, often uncomfortable, discussions is some eye-opening and maybe even some openness to some new ideas. .......good stuff.

In the newcomers forum though, when new ppl are coming to find out if they've GOT an alcohol problem, what can be done about it, what to consider, what to look at, and so forth...... even the most mature exchange of differences between old-timers in either program is going to make things confusing at best or like both programs suck at worst, to someone who's new.

I try.....TRY......to keep my posts simple and appropriate to what was helpful for me when I was new, has been helpful to the guys I sponsor, or that I've seen help other newcomers. Debates, IMO, go in another section of the forum - probably in private messages IF the quest is really for knowledge or understanding. Sadly, what most of those debates turn into is a ego vs ego who's smarter than who competition and not reeeeally a search for knowledge......and that does NOTHING for the newcomer.

I'd like to see a "primary purpose" in these newcomer threads where we focus on helping the newcomer and be mature enough to set aside all the other stuff for another area/time/place.

RobbyRobot

Okay, so if the thread is not needing to be locked, then that is awesome
I love a good back n' forth

Terminally Unique

I would agree with that general premise, DayTrader. It is certainly not my place to say how the forums should be arranged here, but one thing that I saw done in another forum was the creation of a separate section for threads that turned into never-ending discussions. They would start up anywhere, of course, but if they started sucking up all the attention on a primary forum, the moderators would simply move it to that separate section.