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AA vs. RR/AVRT

Old 03-13-2012, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by terminally unique View Post
i heard this 1,000 times, since it is read at the beginning of every single meetings, and i never liked it one bit. It is essentially a miranda warning for any would-be-dissenters, showing no concern for human life. One has to be morally deficient accross-the-board not to cringe at this practice.
Originally Posted by Sapling
rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.

quote from bb first edition
LOL -- I heard that!

I don't see it as a morality issue, but I can understand how it could be seen as such, no problemo.
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Old 03-13-2012, 03:59 PM
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Hey, sorry Sapling, I didn't in any way whosoever mean to diminish the role of the Big Book, or to suggest that someone can just pick and choose what they like (ignoring certain steps, for example). I get that. It just confuses me to hear that some folks in AA point to other materials and literature as well, while I also hear that being discouraged sometimes by other members.... or at least it sounds that way to me.... but as I said, I am on the outside looking in. Curious and clueless is a dangerous combo; sorry if I handled that clumsily.

AA is within that vast melting pot of human experience....
Excellent, Robby. Thank you. That does pretty much put it in the right perspective for me.
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
LOL -- I heard that!

I don't see it as a morality issue, but I can understand how it could be seen as such, no problemo.
When I refer to morality, I mean a basic sense of what is right and what is wrong. If someone can't see that there is something not-quite-right with telling people over and over again that they were born constitutionally incapable of being honest because they aren't fitting into the mold, well, I don't know what else to say, really.
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
I heard this 1,000 times, since it is read at the beginning of every single meetings, and I never liked it one bit. It is essentially a miranda warning for any would-be-dissenters, showing no concern for human life. One has to be morally deficient accross-the-board not to cringe at this practice.


That's a horrible guilt trip to lay on already sick people. It's also the ultimate disclaimer.
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
When I refer to morality, I mean a basic sense of what is right and what is wrong. If someone can't see that there is something not-quite-right with telling people over and over again that they are constitutionally incapable of being honest because they aren't fitting into the mold, well, I don't know what else to say, really.
Absolutely correct TU, when you're meaning is qualified as for example AA requiring people to fit into a mold, and when they don't comply or otherwise fit, they are then understood to be constitutionally incapable of being honest, then yes, you're so talking what my ears so want to hear.

Isn't civil dialogue the bomb?!!

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Old 03-13-2012, 04:25 PM
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Robby,

I always thought that a modified version of the disclaimer from Chapter 5 from the original manuscript of the Big Book would be more fitting for a preamble read at meetings. Something like this, perhaps:

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after, have been designed to sell you three pertinent ideas:

(a) That you are alcoholic and cannot manage your own life.
(b) That probably no human power can relieve your alcoholism.
(c) That God can and will.

If you are not convinced on these vital issues, you ought to re-read the book to this point or else find another away!
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:44 PM
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Yeah, that so works for me, and is how in practice I actually went about completing the AA program in 90 days. I walked in, did my detox, did my rehab, did my meetings, did my socializing, had my intimate respective relationships, and 90 days later I was recovered as defined by AA. What's there not to love?!!

Seriously, the above statements are true for me and my experience. And I'm a hardcore recovered alcoholic. Never been to AA before that either... although I did read the BB drunk a few times when I borrowed it from my buddy who could never stay sober in AA. I was in my early 20's back then.

No one wants to be told how to think, even if they agree to being told because of particular circumstances ie alcoholism. I see alot of abuse in AA same as I see it everywhere else though, so it is what it is, and I try to do the right thing at the right time for the right reasons.

I like how you hate injustice, TU. I do too.

Thanks for the useful and important link, TU.
Awesome!

Oh yeah, I wanted to also say I see alot of beautiful lives being saved in AA too!
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:46 PM
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This is how it read in the original Manuscript...

If you are not convinced on these vital issues, you ought to re-read the book to this point or else throw it away!

By the way..All that is..

A. Second half of step one
B. First half of step one.
C. Step two.
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Yeah, that so works for me, and is how in practice I actually went about completing the AA program in 90 days. I walked in, did my detox, did my rehab, did my meetings, did my socializing, had my intimate respective relationships, and 90 days later I was recovered as defined by AA. What's there not to love?!!
I did the same thing...Exactly...
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sapling View Post
This is how it read in the original Manuscript...

If you are not convinced on these vital issues, you ought to re-read the book to this point or else throw it away!
Yes, I know -- I provided a link to it. That should have been retained, IMO.
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:13 PM
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Every group decides for themselves what they read or if they read at all. The preamble is usually read at most meetings. In Europe it's for example more common to not say the Lords Prayer at the end of a meeting. Some use the Serenity Prayer.
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
Yes, I know -- I provided a link to it. That should have been retained, IMO.
There were actually about 40 drunks working on that book...You hear a hundred a lot...It was closer to forty...Bill would write and put it past them...They thought it was too harsh...Drunks are sensitive people. They also had to change from directions to suggestions...Because drunks don't like to follow directions.

PS...The link you had said...Find another way...The original said...Throw it away.
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Yeah, that so works for me, and is how in practice I actually went about completing the AA program in 90 days. I walked in, did my detox, did my rehab, did my meetings, did my socializing, had my intimate respective relationships, and 90 days later I was recovered as defined by AA. What's there not to love?!!
I want to qualify the above abit. My being recovered by AA standards does not mean in any way I was completed my introspective journey with never again getting drunk. I have not drank since 1981 is true, but I had alot more growing and changing to do of course to stay sober. It wasn't a cake walk, lol.

Working with other drunks and addicts really helps, and so I went to work for 10 years for the same rehab organization that helped me as a client. I eventually became at 5 years sober an executive program director and worked another 5 years in various formulations of the not-for-profit company. The original home company is now long since defunct but variations yet exist from those early years back in the 1980's.

During those first 5 years I did my two years live-in residence training and learned a modified gestalt therapy. Awesome times. I grew like crazy.

Anyways, just wanted to say that my being recovered in AA after 90 days was not the end of the journey by any stretch of the meaning of recovered. I'm still learning just how little I really know.
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Anyways, just wanted to say that my being recovered in AA after 90 days was not the end of the journey by any stretch of the meaning of recovered. I'm still learning just how little I really know.
Agreed...I only have nine months...But I feel like I've been handed a second life. And I'm looking forward to it.
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:23 PM
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I confess that i have not read through all of this lengthy thread, which is on a topic which has been discussed off and on in these forums for many years. As I see it AVRT is not really inconsistent with AA, at least insofar as it focusses on a phenomenon which is quite well accepted now in scientific circles, namely that there is a primitive part of the brain which may become a major obstacle in recovery, which may send subconscious messages to the more rational parts of the brain to get the addict to resume drinking. If this is the AVRT message it is not really inconsistent with AA. Perhaps some of the more traditional AA doctrine may have a measure of exclusiveness, namely an idea that "You're never going to get well unless you do all the 12 steps under the guidance of a sponsor and unless you diligently attend AA meetings as often as possible." I understand that AVRT does not think this is necessary and, for some folks, recovery seems to have taken place without it. I can only speak for myself. I was not a conventional AA participant but I did get a lot of benefit out of parts of it and I doubt that I would have achieved 23 years sobriety without all that friendly and nonjudgmental support. I like to listen to some of the old timers. They've been through a lot and have a lot of experience.

W.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wpainterw View Post
As I see it AVRT is not really inconsistent with AA, at least insofar as it focusses on a phenomenon which is quite well accepted now in scientific circles, namely that there is a primitive part of the brain which may become a major obstacle in recovery, which may send subconscious messages to the more rational parts of the brain to get the addict to resume drinking. If this is the AVRT message it is not really inconsistent with AA.
WPA,

Every single 'old-timer' in AA uses methods similar to those of AVRT, but they rarely explain this to newcomers. Not necessarily out of malice, but simply because it was never articulated to them, and they essentially learned it on their own, through trial-and-error. I have met a few who can articulate it, but not many. Whenever I explain how AVRT actually 'works' to old-timers (not the newbies who haven't figured it out yet), they usually recognize the similarities. They may attribute the skill of recognition to a 'Higher Power', and call detachment 'turning it over', but they do this nonetheless.

In AVRT, the Addictive Voice is essentially an immoral proposition, and some religious AVRT'ers may likewise attribute this moral recognition to G-d. There are scattered references to the Addictive Voice in the AA Grapevine, where it is referred to as 'the committee'. Of course, they call the Beast 'my disease', or sometimes 'king alcohol'. You can often hear echoes of AVRT when people say "my disease is telling me to stop working the steps," for example. Generally, though, all of this is given cursory attention in AA, at least compared to what we do with AVRT, where it is the prime focus.
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Old 03-14-2012, 05:49 AM
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woops......double post
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Old 03-14-2012, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
I heard this 1,000 times, since it is read at the beginning of every single meetings, and I never liked it one bit. It is essentially a miranda warning for any would-be-dissenters, showing no concern for human life. One has to be morally deficient accross-the-board not to cringe at this practice.
Hmm, really? I don't see it that way AT ALL. I suppose we see what we want to see though..... and I don't think you'd find anyone who knows me who'd say I'm "morally deficient" let alone "across the board."

You're entitled to your opinion though, as am I.

........and let's remember......just because it seems to be a favorite past-time 'round here sometimes......... this thread's original intent was not to hyper-analyze passages from AA literature. There's a 12-step support section of this forum for that.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DayTrader View Post
and I don't think you'd find anyone who knows me who'd say I'm "morally deficient" let alone "across the board."
On second thought......maybe you could. LOL

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Old 03-14-2012, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DayTrader View Post
Hmm, really? I don't see it that way AT ALL. I suppose we see what we want to see though.....
The intent is, on one level, to get people to 'completely give themselves to this simple program', to get them to recover via the 12 Steps, but the truth remains that a significant number of people -- for whatever reason -- will never be able to do this. They will be told over and over again that they are not being honest enough, or left something out of their 4th Step, or haven't accepted Step 1 completely. Many, believing they are deficient by design, and that AA is the 'last house on the block', will go on a free-fall-to-bottom looking for that elusive 'Step 1 experience', dying long before they ever have it.

Others will have that experience, and accept Step 1 completely, but still be unable to work the program, and will resign themselves to their dismal fate. People in the rooms will remain blithely unaware of this, though, and attribute all of it to 'their disease'. So, no, DT, this is not merely an opinion, nor is it a simple analysis of a passage. It comes from first-hand observation of what actually occurs in the rooms, where I have seen blatant disregard for human suffering, and where people have actually read that passage from Chapter 5 aloud the day after a suicide or death, usually at a meeting, but sometimes at the funeral itself.
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