RobbyRobot

Yeah, its grand, eh?
You're good people, freshstart

Peter G

I'm on my iPhone all day following this thread after posting before, so I can't type worth a damn on this thing. Otherwise I definitely would have caused a significant ruckus as the subject matter evolved!! Just bloody figures, talk of Gods and devils, and I'm stuck with a typing apparatus the size of a deck of smokes. Aargh.

Anyway, I'm posting now, braving this ridiculous omnipresent auto-correct nonsense, positive that "auto-correct" is really the proper name for some sentient, malevolent beast who waits patiently inside my iPhone to make a bloody fool of me, and I'm only risking such exposure to evils beyond words because TU's point needs repeating.

Jack, Upgrade that website, please! 1990 called, they want their programmers back.

desertsong

I think you're ALL good people.

ReadyAndAble

What the what? This topic resulted in a love-fest?

Quick—somebody get desertsong on a direct flight to the Middle East...

soberlicious

Terminally Unique

Well, at least there weren't any (((((HUGGZZZ)))))

eJoshua

It's never too late. *HUG*


Good thread, I read it all day throughout work. I don't think there's anything I could possibly add to the discussion.

wellwisher

(((XXXOOOXXX)))):rotfxko

unentschieden

If there is a library of good threads then I nominate this thread for inclusion in that library.

sobernow21

i congratulate you on your mission to be sober again and i know it takes a lot of hard work

MemphisBlues

What a great thread, and outstanding posts from some of my favorite and least favorite posters!

And unless I'm not mistaken, not one administrator had to post reminding everyone to tone it done from nuclear meltdown.

AA, SMART, AVRT, all are geared towards one goal and that is sustained (or complete, forever, never-going-back) sobriety.

Great stuff. Inspiring reads.

I do AA because once I had some sober time under my belt I realized that I had some serious issues regarding this life thing (like how to do it and oh crap how do I repair the damage I've wrought?).

The God thing was always a major hindrance to my buying into AA, and like Peter G., I've found valuable tools from the Rational Recovery spectrum. Confession: My AVRT experience is from a decade ago when I dipped my toe into recovery and explored AA (rejected it outright) and RR (Whoopee! I can do this thing without the God crap...maybe there's even hope for Moderation Management in my future!) and failed miserably.

I haven't gone back and reread Rational Recovery and seem stalled in working the steps of AA, but I am able to meld both programs into my abstinence -- 515 days so far. Full disclosure: I go to meetings with some people who think AA is the only way to stay sober. I think they are dead wrong. Rational Recovery appears to have total disdain for AA. I think those people are dead wrong.

For the original poster, I recommend this thought from my personal situation: If you are just addicted and removing the addiction solves all of your problems, Go AVRT, man. Fight that beast with every Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy technique you can muster and beat that sucker into submission. If you can't decide which is for you, ask yourself these questions: Got a job? Family close? Good credit? Banking account in the positive? Hurt anyone today? Helped anyone? You answers to those questions might help you decide if you want AA or AVRT.

But if this addiction has beaten you to a bloody pulp and the seeping pus and blood of your wounds ain't healing, there is a chair for you in the rooms of AA. I'm the heap of mess sitting next to you.

Don't get me wrong. There are gobs of people walking into the rooms of AA who get the program right away, life goes on all rainbows and orgasms and they're happy campers, hit a meeting, pick up the kids, get to work on time, on and on and on.

But there are those like me who have to go through this total deconstruction-of-self thing in order to get back into the game of life. And if the God thing bothers you, you can take what my theory is: Quasars, black holes, the accident of life on this planet, gravity, light, the Big Bang...the list goes on and on about things I will never be able to grasp and wherever those things came from is my Higher Power. You don't have to believe in a traditional conception of God to adhere to the first 164 pages of book Alcoholics Anonymous.

Yeah, yeah....Oxford Group, Bill W., the whole thing is veiled Christianity. But that veil is powerfully cool, and for some Fat Cat white sexist male pigs to come up with the program of AA and have the humility to remove direct references to Christianity and to believe the program was available to all people of all faiths or non-faiths (OK...the chapter to agnostics can be a tad much unless read with a very open mind) is friggin' fantastic.

But there is not one mention of the word Christ in the book. Nary a single one. All you have to do is accept that there just might, against all odds, be something a tad more powerful than you out there or here or anywhere. I know that is tough, and it was hard for me...but I have been known to be wrong before so I gave in and admitted that there was that slight possibility -- that's my god of my understanding. (the crowd cheers, the President of the Universe pins the Champion of Humility medal on my chest, women cry and fling themselves at my feet...)

And Gandhi said something along the lines of where I'm at with the whole AA/religion/spirituality thing: "I have no problem with your Christ, but do have a problem with your Christians."

I sit in the rooms with people from Iran, Asian countries (both Christian and Muslim), Buddhists, Jews, Americans, Europeans, born-again holy rollers, agnostics, atheists, and we all say the Serenity Prayer. Good stuff. Who am I to judge? Now if I could just push this whining-butt ego of mine aside and get on with the 8th step, I may make some progress.

awuh1

MemphisBlues, its posts like that, that keep me commin back. Brilliant!

Gr8ful4Life

I aggree with MB. I think the more hopeless you are, the better AA will work. But, in the end, it's your recovery that matters, so find something that works for you.

Unfortunately I had to find out through trial and error what would work for me.

I was totaly hopeless. Nothing I tried or did could keep me sober. I could detox myself and maybe stay clean for a couple of weeks. One time I managed to stay sober for 1 1/2 years... only to start up again worse than I had been before. It took me a long time to even admit to myself I had a problem. I started going to AA (felt really out of place), got a sponsor (didn't like calling him, very bad social anxiety), worked the steps & continue to work them.

And now, I can honestly say that today the obsession, the wanting to get loaded is gone. It's no longer a fight for me to try not go drink/use, it's just gone. And, usualy (not always, but usualy) if it do think about it, it turns my stomach - This, to me, is nothing short of a miracle - I don't understand how/why it works, I just know it did for me - In more ways than just keeping me sober.

This is my experience, for some reason I felt like I should share it. But,everyone is different and will need to find what works for them.

There is such a better way of life out there. Good Luck in your recovery!!!

Sapling

Great post MB....And I'm grateful for the pulp I was beaten to...to have found my chair....Little help with 8th step...

Now we need more action, without which we find that "Faith without works is dead." Let's look at Steps Eight and Nine. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory. We subjected ourselves to a drastic self-appraisal. Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes. Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol.

DS...I just hope and pray...Whatever you choose...Works for you.


Quote from the BB first edition. p76

desertsong

What a great post, Memphis Blues. Thank you. This discussion has been amazing.

Yeah, Sapling, I have certainly earned my chair at AA too. Getting my butt back into it today and starting work on Step 4, which I have been balking at (my sponsor will be so happy, lol). Meantime, my RR book should arrive at my door today and I will have that as another resource if/when I feel it can be useful.

I don't want to make my recovery program too complicated, but at the same time, I also want to know about all of the resources available to me should I find I need something else. This discussion has been a huge help in that regard. Amazing thread.

michelle01

Yes it turned out to be a balanced, fair and informative thread, often you see these discussions turn into a back and forth about whose-program-is-best. It is a subject where the stakes are high.

I tend to think that maybe RR is better for those in the middle stages of alcoholism too, at least that's what I initially thought, though haven't had enough experience of the program to know that for sure.

I have a family member who quit smoking quite suddenly 30 years ago. Just stopped like that, no quitting method. A few years later, he also drastically cut down his alcohol intake - he just made a decision, and that was it. A good guy but we are very different. He is very analytical, methodical, the type who won't believe in anything unless he can see it right in front of his eyes. Classic left brained thinker. I don't know how we would ever have fared in AA unless it was the last resort for him (he experienced a harsh religious upbringing, that he later turned away from, perhaps contributing to some of this).

He insists that quitting the smoking and heavy drinking (I know very few people who can maintain moderation after drinking the amounts that he did) was a matter of will power for him. Maybe that's some of it for me but it didn't seem enough on its own. And moderation never worked for me.

I can be very analytical at times too but more inclined I guess to think in terms of abstract concepts. Maybe he was more a heavy drinker than an alcoholic, but it makes me wonder too if some of us are just wired differently.

Terminally Unique

That's your Addictive Voice talking, desertsong. You haven't even received the book yet, and the AV is already pre-emptively setting you up to procrastinate on reading it until you 'feel it can be useful'. I hope you see the waffling embedded in your statement above. As KAMRIZ pointed out, that book can easily collect dust for years that way, just as it took months for you to order it. There is no AVRT by osmosis, though. You'll have to sit in a room, all by yourself, without any distractions, and actually read it.

Terminally Unique

You may want to check out GirlFromCO's recent thread...

GirlFromGO -

desertsong

Oh no, TU, I plan on starting to read it as soon as it arrives. I'll probably read it more than once, as I have the Big Book. No intentions of letting it collect dust.

soberlicious

Loved your post Memphis. From my understanding, the AVRT paradigm is not necessarily saying that life changes and self-improvement are not important or not needed, just that wrapping "issues" up with the actual act of quitting is not necessary, and to the contrary it can also impede the act of quitting for good. The premise is that once the addiction is stopped, you go about living. However one does that (religion, therapy, service work, etc) is up to the individual. Success or failure of addressing life's problems is not tied to abstinence.

Buddha said the same thing: "However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act upon them?"
I naturally did this when the alcoholic fog lifted. I also think that the 10th step is important, always have. Because I am not an AAer doesn't mean I don't know how to apply basic concepts. When I push someone down in the sandbox, I apologize and do better sharing my toys next time. Most 5 year olds know that