donewithhurting

How many of you folk attending AA enjoy the camaraderie of it? Enjoy the attention you receive by being one of the group? By sharing your problems openly and receiving approval? How many look forward to getting the pat on the back for slipping then coming back to program? How many enjoy hearing others suffering so your own may seem not so bad?

How many of you begin to view your group as something special in your life... almost like a crutch holding you up when you cant seem to find your own firm ground upon which to stand?

How many have turned backs on loved ones and friends or other ex-existing supports you once had that were destroyed by bad behavior of the drink's effect?

My wife and I were a team... now there seems to be a new team forming. Seems that way. It's understood she needs it for her recovery but again will there ever be real recovery of just a never ending process and meetings and fellowship coffee to attend?

Thanks for your attention and replies.

Mango blast

Posted elsewhere... repeating here just for the fun of it.



That AA/Alanon 12 step thing

So hokey...
So cult-like, I've heard...
Sad people...
Bad influences, I'm sure...

My loved one needs something that will WORK and those 12 step programs have a reputation for not being organized, for having undesirable people there. I'm afraid they'll be brainwashing or taking advantage of my loved one.

My loved one isn't capable, smart, adaptable or independently strong, you see... and my fears are BIGGER than my hope of things turning out okay by embracing something so DIFFERENT than anything else we've known.

I REALLY don't want to go. I don't need it. It's not for me. My loved one maybe could use it, but refuses to even try it.



That AA/Alanon 12 step program

Showed me new ways of looking at life and myself. Of seeing beauty and goodness, of laughing my way through and out of the worse times of my life. I am a grateful member of the 12 step programs. I take what works and leave the rest. I asked someone else in the program to sponsor me. My sponsor showed me how the program works, how to LOOK for healthy behaviors in and around me. How to SEE unhealthy behaviors in myself.

Sometimes I spend months immersed in meetings and literature. There's a need, a hunger in me that's soaking in information I'm naturally filtering and taking from it things that are helping me. Sometimes I have a different balance to my life. Neither are wrong. This is no longer a race I'm caught up in trying to win. It's a journey, and a good one!



That AA/Alanon 12 step fellowship of PEOPLE has good and bad in it, just as every school, hospital and community does. What makes it special is how it shows how to trust in an inner strength and guidance system -- some call it a Higher Power, some call it Inner-Self, some call it God. My gut instinct, my healthy desires, my conscious thoughts and subconscious all working together for me in new ways. Maybe not every meeting is a good one. Maybe there's some toxic behaviors. I TRUST myself now to deal with that and from it I again learn new skills and strengths, especially the one to seek out healthier meetings for me. There is an ebb and flow to this that becomes natural. What helped me at first isn't quite what I need now. Yet I keep finding more good in 12 step programs and in LIFE as I look for it.

FireSprite

You can find all those answers simply by READING the Newcomers & Alcoholism forums here at SR. I did that for months before I ever started posting on SR at all. If you can stop reading through your OWN experience & opinions & actually touch point with your empathy for others, it can be quite eye opening in a way you can't experience otherwise.

But I think you're waaay off base in your approach - it's obvious that your queries are coming through the lens of your pain & discomfort. I get it, we're just trying to get you to slow down & see your own red flags. It's rare for addiction to not touch every member of the family in some unhealthy way that needs to be adjusted. But you've got to be willing to see that in yourself, the same as an addict has to see the need to reach recovery/rock bottom on their own terms.

You are taking her recovery personally, in other words. I get it, it's an easy thing to do when we are feeling the spiral of out-of-controlness sucking us in. Is this really worse than her active, progressive drinking?

There's a saying to help those with active addicts that goes, "he/she isn't drinking AT you"..... It might help you to keep in mind that she's not "RECOVERING at you"; it sounds like she's just doing her best to put one sober foot in front of the other most days.

I tend to agree with you - it's not uncommon for one spouse to recover while the other refuses & the relationship dissolves as a result. I'm pretty much a living example of that right now except I'm a recovering Codie & he's the non-recovering one.

I've known innumerable codependents who refuse to even consider the idea that they might benefit from a recovery process & they are the most toxic people in my world. (well, not anymore - I am very limited contact with those people, I have incredibly low tolerance for it now.)

Ladybird579

My wife and I were a team... now there seems to be a new team forming.

Are you jealous by any chance?

donewithhurting

FYI - I attend Al-Anon and share regularly my thoughts.

Fully supporting her attending AA meetings and trying to add value to our lives. Controlling her is not my goal but saving the marriage and relationship, if not having it flourish, is.

Just needed some outside perspective from more experienced folks.

AA just seems to be very cultish in it's approach as I read the Daily Reflections. I know, take what works and discard the rest. When one is lost, they don't know what they need and are susceptible to getting sucked in. It happens all the time.

Have you read the Orange Papers?

FireSprite

I avoid them - they are incredibly biased & it can be difficult to filter their content for truths. They skew the information presented to support their anti-AA platform.

It's like reading Big Oil's opinions on solar energy.

tomsteve

How many of you folk attending AA enjoy the camaraderie of it?
i didnt go to AA for camaraderie. i went to get help with learning how to fix me.
it was quite nice to find a group of people that had been in my shoes and were willing to help me learn how to recover.

Enjoy the attention you receive by being one of the group?
i dont go for attention nor does anyone else that is there for the right motive.
By sharing your problems openly and receiving approval?
we dont share for approval. new in recovery, we share to hear solutions.
old farts share to help the newcomers.

How many look forward to getting the pat on the back for slipping then coming back to program?
none of us that have worked the program. we arent there for that.
another sick question to be asking.

How many enjoy hearing others suffering so your own may seem not so bad?
youre a sick man to even think we enjoy hearing other peoples' suffering .

How many of you begin to view your group as something special in your life... almost like a crutch holding you up when you cant seem to find your own firm ground upon which to stand?
none of us that work the program use the group as a crutch.
early in recovery? dam straight and i hope your wife keeps using AA to help hold her up until she gets through the steps.

How many have turned backs on loved ones and friends or other ex-existing supports you once had that were destroyed by bad behavior of the drink's effect?
we didnt turn our backs on loved ones. we made recovery our number 1 priority- more important that what our loved ones thought we should be doing. many broke the chains of being a hostage.

My wife and I were a team... now there seems to be a new team forming. Seems that way. It's understood she needs it for her recovery but again will there ever be real recovery of just a never ending process and meetings and fellowship coffee to attend?

shes still very early in recovery. i dont hate to break the news that recovery doesnt automatically makes everything rainbows and unicorns farting sparkles.
and it aint going to get any better with this massive resentment youre carrying because your wife isnt doing what you want her to do.



PLEASE look in your own mirror. answer the questions of why youre asking these question. find out why you are so full of fear and insecurities.
which you can find some tremendous help and support for that at al anon.
it would be well worth working on yourself, done.
i understand youre just as sick as her. it happens. but there IS a solution.

Mango blast

Law of Attraction

"As you imagine and visualize and verbalize your new story, in time you will believe the new story, and when that happens, the evidence will flow swiftly into your experience."

I would suggest to look for the good... look towards your own recovery and JOY... expect to see good things happen.

It doesn't require belief in this... it simply happens.

Like talking about and looking for red cars, then starting to see and take real notice of red cars.

trailmix

I've never been to AA and my experience with Al-Anon is 1 meeting.

That said, they are "sister" groups really.

So how do you feel when you attend Al-Anon? Do you feel better hearing everyones story and comparing it to your own to see how much better off you are?

I hope not.

What you are implying/saying about AA is really an insult to your wife.

I don't know the AA group she attends, nor do I know enough about it to speak about it in depth. What I am gathering from your posts is that it is something she needs right now.

Now, it may not be to your liking. It may not be part of your beliefs, you may feel that her dependence/attendance/participation in this group goes against what you believe to be the correct approach.

That is ok, you are entitled to your beliefs, of course.

What you are not entitled to, imo, is to try to steer her life and her recovery.

I get it! I get that you are feeling threatened. I get that you feel AA is cult-ish and that with your wife being at a low point in her life she could be vulnerable to depending on AA too much.

Shutting down AA participation is perhaps not the answer, maybe you need to come at this from a different angle. Look outside yourself and how it affects YOU. What can you add to her life, how do you add to your relationship?

Ladybird579

Have you read the Orange Papers?

Yes.

CentralOhioDad

Thank you, tomsteve.

MyLittleHorsie

First, I think you are absolutely right to question any recovery form your spouse takes and educate yourself as much as possible. Whether it is AA or AVRT or SMART - questions are good and necessary.

You have absolutely every right to be concerned over your marriage and the people she is hanging out with. It can be very hurtful when our spouses look for support outside of a marriage. I try to look at it, if the shoe were on the other foot, would I want my husband hanging out at an AA meeting - no, I would not. Doctor, psychologist, addiction specialist led group therapy, would be fine, but AA, I would have a serious issue with AA. Lucky for us, I am the one with the problem He's perfectly happy with his psychologist and after reading the Big Book and attending a handful of meetings out of town, I decided on other courses of action and recovery plans. AA and Al-Anon work for a large number of families, it just doesn't for us. It is perfectly OK to say that and it is perfectly OK to question the methods.

I have read the Orange Papers, they are very angry. Nothing is infallible, we are Christian, we attend church, we are active in our community and part of that is stewardship as taught through our religion, but it doesn't mean I don't think a large percentage of the bible is total horse crap. I will say this, when a tragedy hit our family last week and my husband and son left to go and deal with it and I was at home, stressed and worried, our minister was one of the first people I told and she gave me incredible support. Our religion is one that is more progressive in thinking, we ordain homosexuals, we remarry divorcees, we keep up with and support advances in medicine and science, but I still disagree with a lot of the doctrines. I use it as an example, because where we find support is individual, AA may give your wife the kind of support she seeks right now.

I'm not much longer sober than your wife, but for me, I find this to be a blossoming time, there were days I was glued to this site, posting a lot, I still do to a point because you cannot shut me up, but increasingly, it's not the first thing I read in the morning, or the last thing I read before bed. I don't feel compelled to post continuously. Your wife may grow in time away from AA. 90 days is pretty short in the scope of a marriage, I totally get your concerns and you absolutely have every right to have them, but she has a right to seek out a treatment and recovery option that works for her. Give her 6 months to really adjust. Remember, if she believes she is an alcoholic, then she is. My husband would never call me an alcoholic, "she likes her wine on the weekends". That's how he would describe it.

aliciagr

What you wrote here about your mental state prior to receiving help is something worth noting I think. My own husband was a complete mess when he was lost in his addiction. Irrational thinking, poor choices, lost, confused, vulnerable.

Treatment for addiction in my opinion is exactly like treatment for other psychological issues, medical conditions.

If a family member has a different health problem that is chronic or critical then its normal, accepted, applauded even for family members to work with the patient to review treatment options, work with a doctor to figure out the specific needs this person has for treatment, sort through profiles of doctors and the like. Everyone wants the best outcome.

In addiction treatment from a medical standpoint it is still this way. Its viewed much like seeking care for cancer, heart issues, mental health care. Family is often encouraged to be part of the process of selecting treatment, helping the patient who may feel he is ready to be committed into a rubber room to figure out what will be most helpful, and what can be paid for by insurance or other means.

In addition, MUCH of the current treatment for addiction INCLUDES the family members as part of the equation. Working with the patient in therapy, marriage counseling. Being part of the support team, maybe even the primary source of support while living at home. NOW, this is not to say that parts of treatment are not private, or that people cannot find additional support within groups, or meetings if they choose. I want to make it clear I support independence and personal choice.

This may not be the view EVERYONE holds, but it is a valid way to look at it. And if you do:

None of this is classifies as codependent behavior. Ive given up on trying to figure out all the varying definitions given to this label. But generally to me it means surrendering your life, your values, your health, your happiness in a long term manner for someone else. Being so wrapped up in another person, that you lose yourself.


DonewithHurting,

I have a couple questions. How did your wife get involved in AA? Was she of her right mind (in your opinion) at the time? Do you think she is being taken advantage of, wanting to leave but is possibly the victim of peer pressure, or bullying?

Apart from this what I see is that she likes the program of AA, while you have concerns. My feeling is something about it is filling up a need she has. Maybe its all about drinking, maybe its something else. Only she can explain to you what it is.

I think the concerns you have about the program, how her use of it is affecting your relationship is something that you have to discuss with her alone. As was mentioned earlier, if you are having trouble discussing it with her then why not seek out a mediator (MC) to help facilitate this?

Hangnbyathread

I am gonna support your choice of Beaten Dog. My impression of Al Anon members were the same. Hell I was a beaten dog myself towards the end. But for many, Al-Anon is a way for them to learn coping skills. They are going to stay with the alcoholic for various reasons. They need to learn how to cope with that choice in their life.

Doesn't mean you or I do. I did find Al-Anon helpful for a place to find clarity in that I was dealing with a very typical alcoholic, experiencing very typical treatment, and found it a great place to come and decompress and talk or listen.

It didn't take me long to find the clarity I needed to end what I was in.
I didn't need 12 Steps of Al Anon to find that. I certainly didn't need to make amends to anyone etc.

Take what works, leave the rest.

I won't disrespect that the programs work for some as long as they don't disrespect that it doesn't work for others.

My ex made it clear that she might fall off the wagon, and she would never not be an alcoholic, recovering of otherwise. That clarity helped my clarity.

She ended up with another man she met in AA. Made it a HUGELY easier to end it. She wanted to be with him, so less energy expended on arguing with me about the why it was over part. I owe him a debt of gratitude.

AnvilheadII

How many of you folk attending AA enjoy the camaraderie of it? Enjoy the attention you receive by being one of the group? By sharing your problems openly and receiving approval? How many look forward to getting the pat on the back for slipping then coming back to program? How many enjoy hearing others suffering so your own may seem not so bad?

How many of you begin to view your group as something special in your life... almost like a crutch holding you up when you cant seem to find your own firm ground upon which to stand?

How many have turned backs on loved ones and friends or other ex-existing supports you once had that were destroyed by bad behavior of the drink's effect?

My wife and I were a team... now there seems to be a new team forming. Seems that way. It's understood she needs it for her recovery but again will there ever be real recovery of just a never ending process and meetings and fellowship coffee to attend?

i'm not sure you could be MORE insulting if you tried......

hopeful4

This is sticky material my friend! Good stuff!

NYCDoglvr

I need a regular reminder I'm an alcoholic because denial and rationalization accompany me through recovery. I can literally forget I'm a non-drinker and if that happens, if a drink is in front of me, suddenly pick it up. Thing is, most people who relapse don't make it back. I was in a meeting and the guy sitting next to me was crying. I asked if he needed help; his response: "I was sober six years and and now after six rehabs I can't stop drinking". This time the craving was more than he could handle. Why couldn't he just stop? No one knows.

This is also a progressive disease and an alcoholic can't control the progression.

You continue to forget this is a mental illness and you can't understand it with rational thinking.

Ask yourself what YOUR motive is in wanting your wife to stop AA. I detect fear. We call self-centered fear: fear of loosing what you have or not getting what you demand.

donewithhurting

A few years of me trying to get her to agree to limiting the drinking she instigated a huge drunken blowup involving our child and myself she realized she needed to do something and next day found a meeting. She was truly beside herself that she had verbally attacked the child. Me, not so much I guess... I don't think they are bullying her in AA. She is a strong, smart and aware woman. Overall i think the meetings and program are good for her... and us... I just don't like the cult-like messages given in the daily reflections, Big Book and by some of the members.

NYCDoglvr

Listen, AA is a program for people who want it, not a program for people who need it. If your need to control what your wife does is so strong you may well loose her. If you can say "I don't understand but I respect your decision," then you may keep her. This is all about YOUR projections and harsh judgements.

Mango blast

((((Hugs))))

Perhaps embrace the illogical a bit here?

What speaks to some of us may not mean anything to others. What has one cringing may be just the thing to reach through to someone else who sees things differently. Different paths, different journeys.

Prayer:

God/Universe/Great Spirit, please guide my thoughts. Give me strength to embrace the illogical.

And if that sounds hokey... doesn't resonate with you, no worries... change the words up completely, if you like. Or perhaps just get a strong cuppa coffee or tea to enjoy!

Life is good. There is ABUNDANT goodness in it.

Sometimes it simply takes a willingness and desire to develop new pathways in the brain. The brain has absolutely remarkable healing ability.