Questioning AA 12 steps
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Originally Posted by donewithhurting 
DW was not an alcoholic.
It's an illness, but she was not like that. She chose to drink. Why can't she choose not to? She has everything to lose. It doesn't make sense to me and now throw in the influence of AA and it's even more confusing.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...mers-recovery/
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Originally Posted by donewithhurting
BO - I've been studying alcoholism for over two years now and still cannot fathom how a seemingly healthy person cannot CHOOSE to stop drinking. I smoked pot for years and then decided to stop. I am a social drinker but decided to stop all drinking when DW went into AA to support her. These were my decisions. Nothing more. Simple. A choice. That is part of my confusion. DW was not an alcoholic. She drank for a few years then stopped cold when I demanded she did. No AA. lasted 6 years then family issues emerged and she coped by turning to the bottle over the course of a year. I understand the problem "alcoholics" and drug addicts, heck even food, shopping, sex and gambling addicts have. It's an illness, but she was not like that. She chose to drink. Why can't she choose not to? She has everything to lose. It doesn't make sense to me and now throw in the influence of AA and it's even more confusing.
Your wife may be an addict.. maybe not as severe as others tho... I too can not overcome the lack of ability to choose to quit, not pickup the needle, etc... I watch my wife do the most irrational things I could ever have thought and then some. Her story is filled with poor choices... With that said, i am working to be less judgmental of her past and working on our present and her sobriety. I have been hurt and screwed over by her, and maybe that will be in the cards again for me... and if so, we will not survive the next time... but I am interested in her getting better as a person... and will support her best I can without putting myself or our kids at risk. Trust me... it is very hard to sit by and watch... and even be excluded.. from much of her recovery. i want to help, but i know that is not beneficial to her recovery... I have to let the cards be played as they are dealt.. if she is going to get better, that is on her.. if she is committed to staying in the marriage, that is on her... my life is on me.. my happiness is on me... and she can choose to be a part of that or not.
Now it is possible she sees your presence in all her recovery as nagging.... step back.. live your life.... as tough as it is for you.... and I know it can be tough... my wife is slowly opening to me.. but it will be a long slooooowwww road...
T
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donewithhurting.....Floyd P. Garrett. M.D. (psychiatrist)...gives the best descriptions of alcoholic thinking, as I have ever read. He has written many articles...some more "academic" than others. You may want tp pick and choose which ones are most helpful to you. I highly suggest that you give them a look...
A few that I likes were....
"The Addict's Dilemma"
"Addiction Lies and Relationsjips"
"Excuses Alcoholics Make"
Papers on Addiction and Recovery
Welcome to Psychiatry & Wellness, Behavior Medicine Associates
A few that I likes were....
"The Addict's Dilemma"
"Addiction Lies and Relationsjips"
"Excuses Alcoholics Make"
Papers on Addiction and Recovery
Welcome to Psychiatry & Wellness, Behavior Medicine Associates
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
Her desire/need to use alcohol as a copping skill is HER issue to deal with. Your desire/need for her NOT to be alcohol dependent NOT to need anyone else’s help other than your own is your issue to deal with.
I think given what you have shared and your strong opinions, that could be a very real possibility and one where she may end it if you can’t/won’t or don’t get your own issues in check.
I fear for our marriage but am not afraid to end it.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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Originally Posted by dandylion
donewithhurting.....Floyd P. Garrett. M.D. (psychiatrist)...gives the best descriptions of alcoholic thinking, as I have ever read. He has written many articles...some more "academic" than others. You may want tp pick and choose which ones are most helpful to you. I highly suggest that you give them a look...
A few that I likes were....
"The Addict's Dilemma"
"Addiction Lies and Relationsjips"
"Excuses Alcoholics Make"
Papers on Addiction and Recovery
Welcome to Psychiatry & Wellness, Behavior Medicine Associates
A few that I likes were....
"The Addict's Dilemma"
"Addiction Lies and Relationsjips"
"Excuses Alcoholics Make"
Papers on Addiction and Recovery
Welcome to Psychiatry & Wellness, Behavior Medicine Associates
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
As far as I am concerned, she is not an alcoholic but is now hanging out and receiving tremendous support from alcoholics who applaud each other when they slip and come back.
2) She needs the support of other alcoholics to stay sober.
3) Support is critical to someone who has slipped and come back.
Of course the relationship has changed, it always does when one person goes from active alcoholism to recovery. I'm sorry you're so threatened by the program.
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I dont see how that is a good environment to get sucked into as THE lifelong way to handle something that a person should be able to handle by making and sticking to a choice.
It sounds like Alanon could help you a great deal.
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That is part of my confusion. DW was not an alcoholic. She drank for a few years then stopped cold when I demanded she did.
huh, and you don't see the "controlling" bit in there, huh? and if you DEMANDED that she stop doesn't that make you her HIGHER POWER?
every alcoholic STARTS with choosing to drink. and at the end of the day they DO have to make the decision to stop, or no one would ever get sober. but in between is an illness that is physical, mental and spiritual - to body becomes dependent, the mind is tricked into believing that alcohol will fix everything, and the alcohol becomes the master.
you mentioned, AGAIN, about those broken people in meetings. of course they are broken.....that's why they are THERE....to find a solution, to heal and become whole again. and that doesn't happen in 90 days. alcohol is just a symptom of the deeper underlying issues. and there are no quick fixes......
well maybe for you, maybe for you it's as easy as snapping the fingers.
maybe you don't like your wife doing something on her own? doing something that does not get YOUR stamp of approval? spending time with other like minded individuals, getting support, delving into topics that you have not vetted? that perhaps she is not as under YOUR influence as you thought?
huh, and you don't see the "controlling" bit in there, huh? and if you DEMANDED that she stop doesn't that make you her HIGHER POWER?
every alcoholic STARTS with choosing to drink. and at the end of the day they DO have to make the decision to stop, or no one would ever get sober. but in between is an illness that is physical, mental and spiritual - to body becomes dependent, the mind is tricked into believing that alcohol will fix everything, and the alcohol becomes the master.
you mentioned, AGAIN, about those broken people in meetings. of course they are broken.....that's why they are THERE....to find a solution, to heal and become whole again. and that doesn't happen in 90 days. alcohol is just a symptom of the deeper underlying issues. and there are no quick fixes......
well maybe for you, maybe for you it's as easy as snapping the fingers.
maybe you don't like your wife doing something on her own? doing something that does not get YOUR stamp of approval? spending time with other like minded individuals, getting support, delving into topics that you have not vetted? that perhaps she is not as under YOUR influence as you thought?
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
That is part of my confusion. DW was not an alcoholic. She drank for a few years then stopped cold when I demanded she did.
huh, and you don't see the "controlling" bit in there, huh? and if you DEMANDED that she stop doesn't that make you her HIGHER POWER?
every alcoholic STARTS with choosing to drink. and at the end of the day they DO have to make the decision to stop, or no one would ever get sober. but in between is an illness that is physical, mental and spiritual - to body becomes dependent, the mind is tricked into believing that alcohol will fix everything, and the alcohol becomes the master.
you mentioned, AGAIN, about those broken people in meetings. of course they are broken.....that's why they are THERE....to find a solution, to heal and become whole again. and that doesn't happen in 90 days. alcohol is just a symptom of the deeper underlying issues. and there are no quick fixes......
well maybe for you, maybe for you it's as easy as snapping the fingers.
maybe you don't like your wife doing something on her own? doing something that does not get YOUR stamp of approval? spending time with other like minded individuals, getting support, delving into topics that you have not vetted? that perhaps she is not as under YOUR influence as you thought?
huh, and you don't see the "controlling" bit in there, huh? and if you DEMANDED that she stop doesn't that make you her HIGHER POWER?
every alcoholic STARTS with choosing to drink. and at the end of the day they DO have to make the decision to stop, or no one would ever get sober. but in between is an illness that is physical, mental and spiritual - to body becomes dependent, the mind is tricked into believing that alcohol will fix everything, and the alcohol becomes the master.
you mentioned, AGAIN, about those broken people in meetings. of course they are broken.....that's why they are THERE....to find a solution, to heal and become whole again. and that doesn't happen in 90 days. alcohol is just a symptom of the deeper underlying issues. and there are no quick fixes......
well maybe for you, maybe for you it's as easy as snapping the fingers.
maybe you don't like your wife doing something on her own? doing something that does not get YOUR stamp of approval? spending time with other like minded individuals, getting support, delving into topics that you have not vetted? that perhaps she is not as under YOUR influence as you thought?
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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im a member of AA and can say for a straight up 100% fact that i know for certain
my brain needed washing.
on this:
I just don't understand the "never recovered" always "in recovery" thinking. "Recovered" to me means healed
the title page of the big book of AA:
The story of how many thousands of men and women have recovered from alcoholism.
now into the forward to the first edition
.We, OF Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book.
forward to the 2nd edition:
Alcoholics Anonymous has mushroomed into nearly 6,000 groups whose membership is far obove 150,000 recovered alcoholics.
now into the text of the big book:
-This man and over one hundred others appear to have recovered.
-...who have since recovered
- He knows that thousands of men, much like himself, have recovered.
-But why shouldn't we laugh? We have recovered
-Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
one very important part- what we have recovered from:
Doubtless you are curious to discover how and why, in the face of expert opinion to the contrary, we have recovered from a hopeless condition of mind and body.
we have recovered,but not cured is what the program as laid out in the big book says.
my brain needed washing.
on this:
I just don't understand the "never recovered" always "in recovery" thinking. "Recovered" to me means healed
the title page of the big book of AA:
The story of how many thousands of men and women have recovered from alcoholism.
now into the forward to the first edition
.We, OF Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book.
forward to the 2nd edition:
Alcoholics Anonymous has mushroomed into nearly 6,000 groups whose membership is far obove 150,000 recovered alcoholics.
now into the text of the big book:
-This man and over one hundred others appear to have recovered.
-...who have since recovered
- He knows that thousands of men, much like himself, have recovered.
-But why shouldn't we laugh? We have recovered
-Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
one very important part- what we have recovered from:
Doubtless you are curious to discover how and why, in the face of expert opinion to the contrary, we have recovered from a hopeless condition of mind and body.
we have recovered,but not cured is what the program as laid out in the big book says.
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Originally Posted by donewithhurting
BO - I've been studying alcoholism for over two years now and still cannot fathom how a seemingly healthy person cannot CHOOSE to stop drinking.
if you could have read my mind when i was at that stage of alcoholism, youd probably say i needed a straight jacket in a rubber room.
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I am under her influence as she is under mine. We are interdependent.
I thought interdependence is a higher value then independence and you don’t seem to value the independence your wife feels she needs via AA and her support system with that group.
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I read the AA daily reflections and some of it disturbs me as if they are brainwashing into the AA way.
it would be nice to know where in the Dr you feel it is brainwashing.
and can you tell us what is so bad about the AA way?
it would be nice to know where in the Dr you feel it is brainwashing.
and can you tell us what is so bad about the AA way?
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Location: New York, NY
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I've been sober thanks to AA for 26 years. But if I picked up a drink I wouldn't be able to stop despite being sober for decades. First step says "we're powerless over alcohol....." which means once I pick up a drink I can't control how much I drink or what happens". It's not about rational thinking. As they say in the rooms, "you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber".
It's your wife's call on this one. Hope you can be very grateful she's able to not drink one day at a time. This is a life or death illness. Most can't.
It's your wife's call on this one. Hope you can be very grateful she's able to not drink one day at a time. This is a life or death illness. Most can't.
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Join Date: Jan 2018
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
I've been sober thanks to AA for 26 years. But if I picked up a drink I wouldn't be able to stop despite being sober for decades. First step says "we're powerless over alcohol....." which means once I pick up a drink I can't control how much I drink or what happens". It's not about rational thinking. As they say in the rooms, "you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber".
It's your wife's call on this one. Hope you can be very grateful she's able to not drink one day at a time. This is a life or death illness. Most can't.
It's your wife's call on this one. Hope you can be very grateful she's able to not drink one day at a time. This is a life or death illness. Most can't.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
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But you have chosen NOT to pick up that drink... That is being powerful.
actually it's a mix of humility and respect for the cunning baffling and powerful disease. it isn't the 5th drink that does us in, it's the first. so one needs to remember that they are powerless OVER alcohol, and the only guarantee of the daily reprieve is to NOT pick up. and get right minded about how to live life on life's terms WITHOUT the aid/escape of alcohol.
actually it's a mix of humility and respect for the cunning baffling and powerful disease. it isn't the 5th drink that does us in, it's the first. so one needs to remember that they are powerless OVER alcohol, and the only guarantee of the daily reprieve is to NOT pick up. and get right minded about how to live life on life's terms WITHOUT the aid/escape of alcohol.
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Originally Posted by donewithhurting
But you have chosen NOT to pick up that drink... That is being powerful.
at this time.
the 1st step:
admitted we WERE powerless over alcohol....
we find a power greater than ourselves to help us.
we get the power of choice back, but only over 1.
we only keep that power if we follow simple principles.
the first year of recovery FOR HER is going to be a whirlwind FOR HER.
if you decide to get into recovery FOR YOU( NOT being involved and controlling her recovery- recovering from the codependency ) the first year will be a whirlwind for you,too, but you can recover from the, codependant, controlling tendencies you exhibit here.
it will be well worth it.
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I found it very helpful to create a mental file folder with the title: "I don't know/Not my business"
When I get back to being in the moment of where I am physically at, taking a deep breath and exhaling, taking note of my feet and where they are planted, and keeping my thoughts on what I am currently doing... all those stray thoughts start getting sorted out and I get to ENJOY the day.
Someone else's pain doesn't have to be mine. It doesn't help them heal.
These are recovery/life skills I learned in 12 step programs.
When I get back to being in the moment of where I am physically at, taking a deep breath and exhaling, taking note of my feet and where they are planted, and keeping my thoughts on what I am currently doing... all those stray thoughts start getting sorted out and I get to ENJOY the day.
Someone else's pain doesn't have to be mine. It doesn't help them heal.
These are recovery/life skills I learned in 12 step programs.
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Originally Posted by donewithhurting
Considered. I am under her influence as she is under mine. We are interdependent.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...passion-2.html
What you've shared so far doesn't translate to interdependence in my opinion - I think it's a wonderful thing to strive for in every relationship, but it sounds like your version doesn't allow room for the necessary independence of both parties.
Originally Posted by Tuffgirl
We talk a lot about codependence, and yet there is still a lot of confusion over what it actually means. I don't believe there is inherent codependence in intimate relationships.
I believe there is interdependence, which is defined as: mutuality: a reciprocal relation between interdependent entities (objects or individuals or groups).
Codependence is defined as:a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as in an addiction to alcohol or heroin); and in broader terms, it refers to the dependence on the needs of or control of another.
I am going to say this and it may sound a bit arrogant for which I apologize, but I know I wasn't codependent when I got into this marriage with an addict. Over time, my behaviors became that way to a degree. The true codependent in my marriage was my husband. His need to control me was insatiable. No wonder he was always so frustrated by me! ; )
My codependency came as a direct result of trying to keep the hands on the wheel of our marriage and family as we were veering dangerously off the cliff. I took on many things that he was able to do himself but didn't because he was drunk. I made excuses for his unacceptable behavior and allowed my boundaries to be violated over and over again.
I strive for interdependence in my relationships. I am so thrilled to have reached that point with my teenagers, where it is far more reciprocal than when they were needy little kids! My extended family operates this way. My team at work is very interdependent...not one of us is the expert, we all know a little and together, we know it all! ; )
I won't accept any less than this in my life nowadays. Being "attached" to others is simply too much work, and I choose to seek only a healthy, mutual interdependence.
IMHO, of course! Take what works and all that jazz...
~T
I believe there is interdependence, which is defined as: mutuality: a reciprocal relation between interdependent entities (objects or individuals or groups).
Codependence is defined as:a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as in an addiction to alcohol or heroin); and in broader terms, it refers to the dependence on the needs of or control of another.
I am going to say this and it may sound a bit arrogant for which I apologize, but I know I wasn't codependent when I got into this marriage with an addict. Over time, my behaviors became that way to a degree. The true codependent in my marriage was my husband. His need to control me was insatiable. No wonder he was always so frustrated by me! ; )
My codependency came as a direct result of trying to keep the hands on the wheel of our marriage and family as we were veering dangerously off the cliff. I took on many things that he was able to do himself but didn't because he was drunk. I made excuses for his unacceptable behavior and allowed my boundaries to be violated over and over again.
I strive for interdependence in my relationships. I am so thrilled to have reached that point with my teenagers, where it is far more reciprocal than when they were needy little kids! My extended family operates this way. My team at work is very interdependent...not one of us is the expert, we all know a little and together, we know it all! ; )
I won't accept any less than this in my life nowadays. Being "attached" to others is simply too much work, and I choose to seek only a healthy, mutual interdependence.
IMHO, of course! Take what works and all that jazz...
~T
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