O Well?
Life Goes On
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
Courage, I guess that's what I was trying to say. This whole thing isn't so much about the particular situation as it is about me and my patterns. The reason I brought it here was to try to get some clarity on what to do or maybe think, which in my head always seems to wind around to who or how to be. How do I behave/respond/be, given that the squirrels are running? That activity signals there is something within me that needs examination. In short, yes. Agreed.
Sure, I rolled the idea around in my head - might this guy be a good partner when the time comes? No; I really can't fathom that we'd be romantically compatible. Did I enjoy that exercise? No.
Yeah, rahrah. That AVRT is sound reasoning for a crazy brain. I love the rationality of it. Too bad my addiction is so irrational.
Seriously, though. I'm a big fan of AVRT and AA both. I struggle with the logic (or lack thereof) each of them. But that's why I like them both - is a yin and yang thing.
Sure, I rolled the idea around in my head - might this guy be a good partner when the time comes? No; I really can't fathom that we'd be romantically compatible. Did I enjoy that exercise? No.
Yeah, rahrah. That AVRT is sound reasoning for a crazy brain. I love the rationality of it. Too bad my addiction is so irrational.
Seriously, though. I'm a big fan of AVRT and AA both. I struggle with the logic (or lack thereof) each of them. But that's why I like them both - is a yin and yang thing.
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Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,027
Early sobriety is hard. Friendship is comforting.
I think it’s ok to keep texting him back. I’d have come up with a lighthearted joke about the “love you.” It’s a weird response so I’d have giving him an equally weird one back.
Maybe we don’t need to over analyze your deep seated feelings or his motivations or any of it if he hasn’t given you reason to. I give men the benefit of the doubt unless they blatantly come out with it. Like making a physical pass at me, asking for a date, etc: a real pass, everything else is just conjecture.
Friends are good. Glad you’re hanging in there O.
I think it’s ok to keep texting him back. I’d have come up with a lighthearted joke about the “love you.” It’s a weird response so I’d have giving him an equally weird one back.
Maybe we don’t need to over analyze your deep seated feelings or his motivations or any of it if he hasn’t given you reason to. I give men the benefit of the doubt unless they blatantly come out with it. Like making a physical pass at me, asking for a date, etc: a real pass, everything else is just conjecture.
Friends are good. Glad you’re hanging in there O.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,047
Re Staysassy and it's ok to keep texting him back, I disagree. Just thinking if O were like me, which she isn't, but all I can give is my experience.
Until I got sober -- until a few years after that -- I had never formed a relationship that didn't have a romantic/sexual component. Even if I had antipathy towards a person, in retrospect I sent out some kind of vibe, some addict-risky vibe, and people who latched on to me picked it up. Maybe they thought they were trying to help with kindness. But it was like I had a compulsion to delve into personal stuff that led to emotional intimacy and misled both me and the other person down a garden path, an exciting distraction from the internal work I should have been doing. I learned that things always went that way when I was one-on-one in private with people, even if it never bubbled to the surface. It happened in AA, it happened on SR. What it came down to is that I didn't know how to *be* a friend.
Acting friendly "as if" when I still wasn't a friend to myself was unkind to others, and it didn't support my sobriety.
All I have is my experience. I think I can be a friend now, but it's taken a long time.
Until I got sober -- until a few years after that -- I had never formed a relationship that didn't have a romantic/sexual component. Even if I had antipathy towards a person, in retrospect I sent out some kind of vibe, some addict-risky vibe, and people who latched on to me picked it up. Maybe they thought they were trying to help with kindness. But it was like I had a compulsion to delve into personal stuff that led to emotional intimacy and misled both me and the other person down a garden path, an exciting distraction from the internal work I should have been doing. I learned that things always went that way when I was one-on-one in private with people, even if it never bubbled to the surface. It happened in AA, it happened on SR. What it came down to is that I didn't know how to *be* a friend.
Acting friendly "as if" when I still wasn't a friend to myself was unkind to others, and it didn't support my sobriety.
All I have is my experience. I think I can be a friend now, but it's taken a long time.
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Join Date: Jan 2018
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Originally Posted by rahrah 
For Me, AVRT was my best tool in sobriety. The concept worked brilliantly for me, it kept me sober for 3 years. I treated that 'Addicted Voice' inside me, that urged me to drink, as a little monster I kept in a cage in the corner of my brain. When I heard it rattling its chains, I upped my recovery game.
When I stopped thinking that way, when I stopped treating the voice as separate entity, when I let that voice weave its way through my thoughts as just another thought. That's when my relapse started. Shortly afterwards I started drinking again.
When I stopped thinking that way, when I stopped treating the voice as separate entity, when I let that voice weave its way through my thoughts as just another thought. That's when my relapse started. Shortly afterwards I started drinking again.
I did think of the AV as a separate entity initially, but anytime I'd hear it with no external prompts of any kind I'd try to pay attention to where it was originating from internally. I narrowed it down to usually stemming from self-loathing thoughts and feelings, which is how I eventually traced it back to some of the dynamics that went on in my FOO.
If it seems like I'm getting too deep into this it's because I am, and I don't expect anyone else to want to follow me in that. But it's like traveling into the matrix and as much as I'd rather close my eyes I can't unsee it. The fascinating thing is that just as the AV uses deception and blatant lies to lure one into drinking, people in abusive relationships often stay due to false beliefs and distorted self-image or thoughts perpetuated by the "abuser".
I'm still in the addiction part of the classes I'm doing so haven't gotten to the abuse part yet, but right off the bat they made a comparison between alcoholism and schizophrenia, which tripped me out.. as I'd already thought about how my friend's drug induced schizophrenia is a literal manifestation of the AV, cognitive dissonance, dissociation, whatever it might be called.
We had to watch the movie "A Beautiful Mind", where the main character eventually recovers from his schizophrenia. His delusions (represented as fictional characters) never leave, he just learns how to stop talking back to them. He learns they were never real to begin with, and that's all it takes to put an end to the madness.
Anyway, going back to what I was saying earlier, I think there are times when fixing oneself is appropriate and other times when self-acceptance and awareness is all that’s needed. I think you're already making great progress on that front O. Also, as for the guy situation, romance has probably been my second favorite addiction so I doubt you'd get much healthy advice from me on that topic..
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Join Date: Sep 2015
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I would highly recommend Lance Dode's books or if its easier listen to one of his lectures.
His theory is that true addiction is when you turn to a behavour when as a means to control the uncontrollable and that in his research the uncontrollable is often unfair.
It does not matter what the triggering event is or what the reactive "solution" is, it is the cause and effect between the triggring event and the reactive solution (in our case wanting or planning a drink).
So for example, your boss blames you for doing something that is not your fault (or ignores a help desk problem) and your brain automatically goes to having a drink when you get home. Or you quit drinking and your spouse wrongly accuses you of drinking and as a reaction you drink. How crazy is that, but addicts do it every day.
Or something in your subconsious reminds you of a past abusive event, you want or plan a drink.
There is no rational relationship between the two, but in your mind you use the reactive action as a "solution" to regain control over events even those in the past.
In my case, he really hit the nail on the head.
So none of it makes sense in any rationale way, but it does as a distorted coping mechanism to regain control over the uncontrollable unfair events in our life.
The reason why I post this now because as Cos says, it can be a really useful tool to see where our deep seated issues are. So now when I out of the blue want a drink (which does still happen sometimes), I somstimes think about what triggered it and I find interesting things there. Or its just 5pm and it sounds like a good idea for a nano second.
This is not to take away from my main perpective which is that I dont drink, PERIOD (like I don't hit my kids PERIOD), but as a means of using my addiction to learn more about me.
XX
His theory is that true addiction is when you turn to a behavour when as a means to control the uncontrollable and that in his research the uncontrollable is often unfair.
It does not matter what the triggering event is or what the reactive "solution" is, it is the cause and effect between the triggring event and the reactive solution (in our case wanting or planning a drink).
So for example, your boss blames you for doing something that is not your fault (or ignores a help desk problem) and your brain automatically goes to having a drink when you get home. Or you quit drinking and your spouse wrongly accuses you of drinking and as a reaction you drink. How crazy is that, but addicts do it every day.
Or something in your subconsious reminds you of a past abusive event, you want or plan a drink.
There is no rational relationship between the two, but in your mind you use the reactive action as a "solution" to regain control over events even those in the past.
In my case, he really hit the nail on the head.
So none of it makes sense in any rationale way, but it does as a distorted coping mechanism to regain control over the uncontrollable unfair events in our life.
The reason why I post this now because as Cos says, it can be a really useful tool to see where our deep seated issues are. So now when I out of the blue want a drink (which does still happen sometimes), I somstimes think about what triggered it and I find interesting things there. Or its just 5pm and it sounds like a good idea for a nano second.
This is not to take away from my main perpective which is that I dont drink, PERIOD (like I don't hit my kids PERIOD), but as a means of using my addiction to learn more about me.
XX
Life Goes On
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
Cosima and Drops, wow!! It's a confluence of circumstances and thought alignment that can't be mistaken, is what it is.
What a nice way to start my day, reading your ideas that jive so closely with how I've been thinking/knowing for oh so long but perhaps have done a poor job of verbalizing. Or maybe not? It's like you said, Cos, once seen it can't be unseen. But maybe if you never saw it, there is no way someone can convey to you the interconnectedness of all of this. Not too deep for me by a long shot. I always knew I liked you.
Some four decades ago (!) in my Senior year of high school, I took a psychiatry class. The teacher spent just a very brief amount of time discussing Thomas Szasz's contention that mental illness is a myth; that what looks crazy from the outside is really just the "crazy" person's adaptation to the world. That this theory has stuck with me for all of these years is meaningful to me. "Maladaptive" is a word I've become fond of using because I think it definitely applies to my coping behaviors, particularly drinking. I think Szasz's point was that the important thing to see is the "adaptive" part of behavior or belief, not so much the "mal" label. "I'm not sick - you are all deluded!" It's kind of true from my perspective. And it's something Daniel has touched on fairly frequently - "The drinking does something for you."
Did I lose everyone in my matrix?
Dropsie, at your frequent mention of Dode, I finally did purchase one of his books just prior to (or maybe during?) that last dark period of mine. It's "The Heart of Addiction." When I read your response this morning, I ran up to my room to pull it out from under the pile of books elevating my computer monitor. I'd already pulled "The Four Agreements" to start on a second read (with highlighter in hand this time). I'm betting the farm (Hawkeye's!) the two books agree, if you will.
In an "Is it odd or is it God" twist, I notice today that the Dode book purchased used from Amazon from my home in Maryland originated from a library in a suburb just next to the town where I grew up - in Wisconsin.
And restarting the Agreements book, I reveled a bit in my first reaction while I was in rehab and reading the book as an assignment from my counselor. When she asked me how I was liking it, I said it was wonderful and that I'd gotten stuck (or maybe caught up?) in the early part where Ruiz is describing that we're all basically living in the story about the emperor's new clothes. (True!) My counselor said, "Just try to read the book straight through without thinking about it too much." Lol, wait; what?!? I mean, I didn't lol at the time because I was feeling so insecure and wrong, but today? Tickles my funny bone. "Here's a book I really want you to read. It's profound, but don't take it too seriously."
Cos, maybe your break from SR can instead be a diet? You could just hang around in here? I'm just being selfish - you do you, as they/we say.
Your experience counts, Courage. Of course it does; I hope that didn't sound... snooty or something. It's more meant as recognition that you make sense to me. I do that same emotional intimacy thing you describe. Didn't go there yet with him, but it's likely what is intuitively threatening to me. If Nice Guy seems to return to his familiar ways, I can and will call him to express that I'm not ready for any of "this" because I've got to focus on getting my head straight to avoid causing hurt or confusion for anyone, including myself.
, ALL y'all
What a nice way to start my day, reading your ideas that jive so closely with how I've been thinking/knowing for oh so long but perhaps have done a poor job of verbalizing. Or maybe not? It's like you said, Cos, once seen it can't be unseen. But maybe if you never saw it, there is no way someone can convey to you the interconnectedness of all of this. Not too deep for me by a long shot. I always knew I liked you.
Some four decades ago (!) in my Senior year of high school, I took a psychiatry class. The teacher spent just a very brief amount of time discussing Thomas Szasz's contention that mental illness is a myth; that what looks crazy from the outside is really just the "crazy" person's adaptation to the world. That this theory has stuck with me for all of these years is meaningful to me. "Maladaptive" is a word I've become fond of using because I think it definitely applies to my coping behaviors, particularly drinking. I think Szasz's point was that the important thing to see is the "adaptive" part of behavior or belief, not so much the "mal" label. "I'm not sick - you are all deluded!" It's kind of true from my perspective. And it's something Daniel has touched on fairly frequently - "The drinking does something for you."
Did I lose everyone in my matrix?
Dropsie, at your frequent mention of Dode, I finally did purchase one of his books just prior to (or maybe during?) that last dark period of mine. It's "The Heart of Addiction." When I read your response this morning, I ran up to my room to pull it out from under the pile of books elevating my computer monitor. I'd already pulled "The Four Agreements" to start on a second read (with highlighter in hand this time). I'm betting the farm (Hawkeye's!) the two books agree, if you will.
In an "Is it odd or is it God" twist, I notice today that the Dode book purchased used from Amazon from my home in Maryland originated from a library in a suburb just next to the town where I grew up - in Wisconsin.
And restarting the Agreements book, I reveled a bit in my first reaction while I was in rehab and reading the book as an assignment from my counselor. When she asked me how I was liking it, I said it was wonderful and that I'd gotten stuck (or maybe caught up?) in the early part where Ruiz is describing that we're all basically living in the story about the emperor's new clothes. (True!) My counselor said, "Just try to read the book straight through without thinking about it too much." Lol, wait; what?!? I mean, I didn't lol at the time because I was feeling so insecure and wrong, but today? Tickles my funny bone. "Here's a book I really want you to read. It's profound, but don't take it too seriously."
Cos, maybe your break from SR can instead be a diet? You could just hang around in here? I'm just being selfish - you do you, as they/we say.
Your experience counts, Courage. Of course it does; I hope that didn't sound... snooty or something. It's more meant as recognition that you make sense to me. I do that same emotional intimacy thing you describe. Didn't go there yet with him, but it's likely what is intuitively threatening to me. If Nice Guy seems to return to his familiar ways, I can and will call him to express that I'm not ready for any of "this" because I've got to focus on getting my head straight to avoid causing hurt or confusion for anyone, including myself.
, ALL y'all
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Join Date: Aug 2015
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Until I got sober -- until a few years after that -- I had never formed a relationship that didn't have a romantic/sexual component. Even if I had antipathy towards a person, in retrospect I sent out some kind of vibe, some addict-risky vibe, and people who latched on to me picked it up. Maybe they thought they were trying to help with kindness. But it was like I had a compulsion to delve into personal stuff that led to emotional intimacy and misled both me and the other person down a garden path, an exciting distraction from the internal work I should have been doing. I learned that things always went that way when I was one-on-one in private with people, even if it never bubbled to the surface
This is exactly what I was trying to lamely share with my 'if it were me' post.
This is exactly what I was trying to lamely share with my 'if it were me' post.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,047
^^^ Entropy, no lame post. You and I are maybe similar in some things that we probably shouldn't write about on a public forum If I restated that, it's because I had to put it out there myself, to help me understand it. 
If I restated that, it's because I had to put it out there myself, to help me understand it.
All is Change
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
harsh...
"harshing the buzz" : what happens when the magic stops.
Isn't busting all about chasing the buzz?
The goey feelings when the right music plays. Orgasmics. Being hugged by a lover, by god? . The xitement when the liquid gold goes down just right... A snort...
Isn't busting all about chasing the buzz?
The goey feelings when the right music plays. Orgasmics. Being hugged by a lover, by god? . The xitement when the liquid gold goes down just right... A snort...
All is Change
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
It may apply but I, at the time, was unaware of the other thread. It was inspired by a post of yours that started and ended with things that seemed to indicate a belief in magic (yes, I know, I've babbled about that before) and an adherence to sensual experiences seemingly given by like music but really having to do with clinging to the pleasant feelings thta arise when satisfying cravings, which is very much the same as the drive to indulge. .
Life Goes On
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
The one about HP singing to me in the morning? I don't see how noticing is clinging, but I sure do believe in the magic of interconnectedness.
But it bears no resemblance to the nothingness of drinking. In fact, it's the opposite.
But it bears no resemblance to the nothingness of drinking. In fact, it's the opposite.
All is Change
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
Yes, it's the opposite. But is it really? Wanting, clinging to craving for something pleasant to stay, come back, to come OR wanting something un-pleasant to go away, to not come, to stay away. Both can be seen as craving for things to be under ones control, whereas the real truth is that these things are part of the constant flux of impermanent phenomena outside of any control and thus dissatisfaction comes from the constant chasing of desired feelings and running from undesirable ones..?
Life Goes On
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Oh but, those magical things are not at all under my control. I don't yearn for them or cling to them. I notice them.
What ever did I say to lead you to believe otherwise?
What ever did I say to lead you to believe otherwise?
All is Change
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,284
I understand you understand 'noting' 🙏
I think the following paragraph from http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/pdf/mahasi_sayadaw-1963_discourse_on_anattalakkhana_sutta.pdf chapter 2 page 23 "how feelings oppress" is apt :
I think the following paragraph from http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/pdf/mahasi_sayadaw-1963_discourse_on_anattalakkhana_sutta.pdf chapter 2 page 23 "how feelings oppress" is apt :
"Frustration and discontent due to one’s failure to resolve life’s problems, separation form one’s associates and friends, unfulfilled hopes and desires, are other forms of oppressions inflicted by feeling. Even pleasant feelings, which are very comforting by giving happiness while they last, prove to be a source of distress later. When they disappear after their brief manifestation, one is left with a wistful memory and yearning for them. One has, therefore, to be constantly striving to maintain the pleasant happy state. Thus people go in pursuit of pleasant states even at the risk of their lives."
Further he writes "Feeling is ungovernable and not amenable to one’s will". It takes some contemplation to realise that as feelings (physical and mental phenomena) are therefore not-self. They can be known, but their arising is ungovernable.
The 'path' : "In the initial stages of meditation the meditator suffers from physical discomfort: stiffness, itching, or feeling hot. Occasionally, he or she also suffers mental distress such as disappointment, dejection, fear, or repugnance. One should keep on noting these unpleasant feelings. One will come to know that while these unpleasant feelings are manifesting, pleasant sensations do not arise. On some occasions, however, the meditator experiences in the course of meditation very pleasant physical and mental sensations. For instance, when one thinks of happy incidents, feelings are involved. One should keep on noting these pleasant feelings as they arise. One will come to know then that while pleasant feelings are manifesting, unpleasant feelings do not arise. On the whole, however, the meditator is mostly engaged in noting the origination and dissolution of ordinary physical and mental processes such as the rise and fall of the abdomen, which excite neither painful nor pleasant sensations. The meditator notes these occasions when only neutral feeling is evident. He or she knows therefore, that when the equanimous feeling arises, both painful and pleasant feelings are absent. With this personal knowledge, comes the realisation that feeling is that which makes a momentary appearance, only to vanish soon; hence it is transitory, and is not a self or ego to be regarded as permanent."
Essentially this leads to noting the continual, ungovernable flux that is reality and thus noting not-self (it is ungovernable and therefore not-self) and that misery comes from clinging to this continual (not-self) change.
Be happy
Further he writes "Feeling is ungovernable and not amenable to one’s will". It takes some contemplation to realise that as feelings (physical and mental phenomena) are therefore not-self. They can be known, but their arising is ungovernable.
The 'path' : "In the initial stages of meditation the meditator suffers from physical discomfort: stiffness, itching, or feeling hot. Occasionally, he or she also suffers mental distress such as disappointment, dejection, fear, or repugnance. One should keep on noting these unpleasant feelings. One will come to know that while these unpleasant feelings are manifesting, pleasant sensations do not arise. On some occasions, however, the meditator experiences in the course of meditation very pleasant physical and mental sensations. For instance, when one thinks of happy incidents, feelings are involved. One should keep on noting these pleasant feelings as they arise. One will come to know then that while pleasant feelings are manifesting, unpleasant feelings do not arise. On the whole, however, the meditator is mostly engaged in noting the origination and dissolution of ordinary physical and mental processes such as the rise and fall of the abdomen, which excite neither painful nor pleasant sensations. The meditator notes these occasions when only neutral feeling is evident. He or she knows therefore, that when the equanimous feeling arises, both painful and pleasant feelings are absent. With this personal knowledge, comes the realisation that feeling is that which makes a momentary appearance, only to vanish soon; hence it is transitory, and is not a self or ego to be regarded as permanent."
Essentially this leads to noting the continual, ungovernable flux that is reality and thus noting not-self (it is ungovernable and therefore not-self) and that misery comes from clinging to this continual (not-self) change.
Be happy
Life Goes On
Thread Starter
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I see. So this is discourse, then? Somehow I thought you were correcting me...
So, hmmmm. I'm not certain that pain is the opposite of pleasure. Perhaps both pain and pleasure are the opposite of nothing. And perhaps when my therapist says (used to say) "The drinking does something for you," my response, "Yes, it makes me not care" which is pretty much the feeling of nothing.
That leads me to a further thought that's only on the tip of my brain. I need to let it roll around in there for a bit to see what, if anything, falls out.
I think, though, that Sayadaw's (I gather thats his name - I'm too lazy to look it up right now) main point is in that last sentence. Striving for pleasant feelings or striving to avoid painful ones, we are pursuing a false self. I remain my self regardless of how I feel.
I am not my feelings.
True.
This too shall pass.
Also true.
So, hmmmm. I'm not certain that pain is the opposite of pleasure. Perhaps both pain and pleasure are the opposite of nothing. And perhaps when my therapist says (used to say) "The drinking does something for you," my response, "Yes, it makes me not care" which is pretty much the feeling of nothing.
That leads me to a further thought that's only on the tip of my brain. I need to let it roll around in there for a bit to see what, if anything, falls out.
I think, though, that Sayadaw's (I gather thats his name - I'm too lazy to look it up right now) main point is in that last sentence. Striving for pleasant feelings or striving to avoid painful ones, we are pursuing a false self. I remain my self regardless of how I feel.
I am not my feelings.
True.
This too shall pass.
Also true.
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