entropy1964

Hi O! You sound good.

Aw not good enoughism. Yeah. I has that. Right along with perfectionism. They don't seem to go together....which is because they don't. So what a clash of titans. Life story.

Boundaries with daughter. Yeah. I hear what Tatsy is saying. And if I were that perfect person that would work. But I'm not. So letting daughter fall at times (because alas, I'm not perfect and I'm not her) is something I have to learn to do. And I haven't learned yet. So I keep rescuing her. Which is not letting her grow up. Which teaches her she can't do it without me. Learned helplessness. Oh and it helps me with guilt. Because I has much of that too What a tangled mess. To save myself sometimes I simply have to leave the knot and walk away. And that hurts. Which I also don't like. Oh and fear. That too. Or is it as simple as, I'll do me, and you do you? Dunno. But when my daughter is in pain, I feel it as if I'm right there with her. And I hate that. Our kids grow up in spite of us tho huh?

I think I'm like Cow. When I have the obsession to be drunk, the compulsion to drink is like a speeding train. Talking to someone when I'm there, or having a plan to stop said speeding train is absolutely key...at least for me. I know there will be no control. I don't want control. Yikes.

So today I just won't drink. And I won't change my mind. Excellent mantra.

Dropsie

Being a non-drinking role model is do-able for me; letting my girls crash - nope. Luckily their crahes are small, but I still save them knowing I "should" not sometimes.

And I know everything E is saying is 200% true, but I cannot do it.

Not my nature and then there is all that guilt.

Cow described what it was like for me before when I drank and Sassy what it is now if it ever comes up in my mind.

It just is not an option. If it was, not sure I would call, but I took it off the table, and that works for me. Power is good.

XXX

Stayingsassy

Hm. I think the tough love concept has more wiggle room than taking on total savior role or complete abandonment in time of need.

Boundaries, like O has instituted from time to time for eldest (making sure she’s getting her own insurance, going to her program etc before she can live at home) are important when we are in saving mode.

On a much smaller scale: my 13 year old sometimes wants to be picked up immediately after school even though there is a library across the street, sometimes she doesn’t feel good or is just tired. If I am off work, I’ll drive over to pick her up right when she gets out, if I am slammed at work, no matter how she feels I can’t compromise work to go pick her up. Her needs are important, but if her needs compromise other priorities, my own or other family members’ sanity, they’re going to take a backseat.

I guess you have to ask yourself, how much is my kid compromising my own well being and the well being of those around me, and how can I empower the child to take charge in challenging situations when help and emotional resources are limited? Taking stock in yourself, and in how well you’re coping with taking on the needs of everyone around you.

I’ve done a lot of saving as a mom, too. Just throwing some thoughts out there.

courage2

Good idea. I can't imagine staying sober without people to hang out with who were staying sober as well. A normies' advice, shock, or commiseration is worth less than a plug nickel.

My only thought about your daughter is, you might want to visit Family & Friends on this site. It's pretty intense over there, but powerful.

Re drinking & compulsion:

the last I-don't-know-how-long, it was like a cup of gin was a natural extension of my arm;

when I first quit, it was like having had the arm cut off;

when I drank again after a year, it was like having a reason to live again;

when I quit for the last time -- yet -- it was to save my life.

O, you sound stronger & stronger. Every day without a drink is 24 hours better than the last

Cosima11

Speaking from a “child’s” perspective I’ll just be really blunt, but of course take it with a grain of salt as I’m largely talking about my own experiences. When a young person’s addiction becomes full blown.. it’s too late to be a role model. Sobriety has to be something she seeks out for herself at this point. Of course if she decides to quit on her own it could help immensely to watch your example.. but that has nothing to do with how you should determine boundaries with her.

I moved out of state right after high school because I knew distance from my (over-protective and controlling) family is what was best for me in pretty much every way. But whenever I did try to ask for guidance, my parents just said I’d never make it unless I did things their way with their financial support. In hindsight I definitely could and should have made it trusting my own intuition and learning from my own mistakes (rather than never being “allowed” to make any). And once things got bad, had I stayed in my home state with the option of living at home or having my housing paid for.. jail and/or death were not unrealistic possibilities.

As we all know, when it gets to a certain point with addiction there is no easy way out. If you are preventing her from facing the natural consequences of her addiction, the normal “rules” of parenting sort of have to go out the window. It’s no different (albeit maybe more understandable) than a spouse enabling their partner.

My friend I talk about here who switched from alcohol to meth, is actually doing muuuch better lately after his mom left the state. Even though everyone thought that would be the final straw for him and he’d end up homeless or in jail, he’s been taking the initiative to get himself into treatments and transitional living places.

So I feel strongly about this, if a child is never given any autonomy how can they be expected to act as an adult.. Anyway, I’m sure it’s a difficult situation for both of you to be in and I hope you can find some healthy solutions and support.

entropy1964

I relate very much to your experience Cosima, as a fellow ACOA. I think we have similar parents! By the time I was on my own, at 21 (after Uni) any positive example my parents might have set probably wouldn't have impacted my decisions much. I mean, if my father had admitted his problem and how bad it was, put aside actually quitting, that would have meant something to me. But in my 20's I was in 'blame everyone else' for all my issues. My alcoholism didn't spiral until my late 30's but that was just dumb luck. I was well on my way at an early age. But, and this is important, I knew for sure my parents would never rescue me. Ever. So being self reliant right out of college was the only option. That probably saved me from a more expedient spiral...but that is just conjecture.

I have puzzled a long time over the whole nature, nurture thing. I've come to a slow realization that I very much am who I am. Yeah, the clucked up childhood didn't help. But there were good times too....and I seem biologically designed to remember, and dwell on, all the bad ones. There were good times....but I'm detached from them. What is up with that? Memory is sooooo strange.

I know my relationship with my kiddo is enmeshed. I know I rescue her too much....for me, if not for her. I know I learn by doing, and failing. So does she. But then there's the guilt. And what Sassy said is true....there's a big grey area between shutting the door completely and enabling. I've just never been very good at the grey thing. And really, it's more about how I relate/respond to supporting my daughter. Am I 'in' her issues with her? Living them so to speak? Or am I guiding her, without trying to fix and own? Huge difference. And its really, selfishly, about me. I have to protect myself. Because I drink over this crap. And I cannot do that, no matter what.

Hawkeye13

I have no kids, so cannot speak from parent perspective, but as a child with an alcoholic mother and then growing into alcoholic myself, I don't think any kind of modeling would have changed my behavior as an adult already launched on drinking.

However, I was always more functional than my mom and and I think the situation is somewhat reversed for you O--you are a solid earner and keep up your home, etc.

My mom always needed 'bailouts" of hospital runs, hoarding clean-outs, etc., so even when I was drinking I was still helping her though she did earn through hard work of a lifetime a modest but sufficient retirement though she had no real savings or investments.

My feeling is that your daughter is blaming others, mostly you O, for her situation, and that rescue will not change anything. Maybe she does need to crash and realize what's at stake.

But if you aren't concentrating first on your own recovery, the whole house of cards can tumble down, so I would work out a plan that you can live with the puts the focus on you, with a clear line of what you will and will not do in regards to eldest.

I think she needs to get a real job if she can't manage to get through school. Harsh, but you know, life is tough and she cannot expect lifelines from you for the rest of her life. It worries me that she will try to shift her resource-seeking to your other daughters. Maybe this needs to be part of the plan--how all of you will respond if eldest is put on notice she needs to step up.

When are you going home? How are you feeling about that?
Sending hugs your way as I sit quit wet at my desk early Monday morning--first in the office and I managed to get in despite the rain pelting down.
Now of course the sun is coming out and the birds are singing.

Good thing I enjoy walking in rainstorms

Hawkeye13

P.S.

No matter what, eldest should not move back into your home for any reason in the near future.

That's a given I'm assuming, but it should be if still in the air.

Obladi

Yes, but our temporary guy wasn't really equipped. Regular counselor would've nipped that right in the bud.

Obladi

I don't exactly know, Cow. It's sort of like you describe, except for once the decision is made, there is no more feeling. It's like I go outside of myself in some sort of way.

I was thinking about this today in terms of what I need to do to protect myself and what I'd do if no one answered the phone or they didn't understand what I did/didn't need by way of support (and that's not an expectation that anyone stop me, folks, obviously I'm the only one who can do that - it's more like "how" I need someone to listen to me). And I came to the conclusion that I also need to be prepared to have my own private freak out. Scream, cry, carry on - whatever it takes to get beyond that auto-pilot thing. I don't know if I wrote this before, but one of our speakers advised that if the feeling has anything to do with trauma, Go Away. That seems like really sound advice to me - just get out of the house and walk. Or get in the bathtub. Or dunk my face in a bowl of ice cubes. Something!

As far as eldest goes, it's tricky. Not only does she drink, but she also suffers from severe anxiety, depression, anorexia and bulimia. So it's not I'm dealing with an otherwise "well" person if only it weren't for addiction. I don't know. I'll figure it out. Don't have to do so at this very moment, thank God. And as I've written before, I'm the trustee of her trust fund and have significant leeway on how to distribute funds. I don't know how to separate the mom from the trustee, but perhaps I can get in touch with the woman who established the trust and get her input. She's been through plenty of drama with her own kids and grand kids and I trust her judgement. We never did get to talk much, but I'll get in touch with her again after leaving here.

Mother Hen is still doing little whispery conversations with others in my presence, but I'm not phased by it; it may well not be about me at all. Just observing her and observing how I am responding to her (not). On Friday, I gave her a hug during the Sign of Peace at our speed-race mass (15 minutes!), and on Friday evening she almost smiled at me while a half dozen of us danced to Bob Marley. This morning in group, she snapped at me when I asked her if she's working the steps, but she stopped on the way out of the room to say "I didn't mean to be sharp with you - I just didn't understand your question."

It's really great to have realized that all I need do to escape the buffeting winds is step outside of the vortex.
Wow, what a difference!

Obladi

If only it were that simple. On any level.

Fusion

I believe you're far more capable than what your sub-conscious brain is telling you, O. You know, that part of your brain that is habituated, addicted? You're worth more than auto-pilot, O.

Edited to add: please don't bite my head off, I'm sensitive too.

Dropsie

I know I have mentioned this before, but my guru therapist gave me a piece of simple but great advice that might help break that "sleep walk" drinking.

It is actually very similar to what your therapist said but with a slight twist. She says that whenever one is going to act on impulse/compulsive thinking one needs to break the cycle by DOING something. I do three twirls. Not about drinking these days, but other stuff. You can obviously also get out, but the movement breaks the thoughts, which one cannot do with thought alone.

Works for me.

My eldest who we have talked over the years basically does not drink at 26, and so far my youngest shows no signs of any substance use (but she is not yet 16 so there is time).

But I know I save them both too much, and yet the eldest has managed to become almost too responsible despite my help. It is a problem I know I have and not just with my kids, I want to save everyone -- I am sure the world would be better off if instead I spent that time on myself, which I am really trying to do. Work in progress.

Cos -- just want to say again how amazing you are.

O - when do you go home?

X

fini

“... and becoming a non-drinking role model for your eldest daughter. Instead of standing by and watching her 'crash' as you call it?”

i suspect it is not a matter of “instead of”. often, it is both: we can model stuff, and yet the other can or will crash.

entropy1964

Eating disorders are incredibly complex O. Ugh. And addiction is very similar. All tying to debilitating anxiety....again, ugh.

My kiddo definitely struggles with body image and all the lovely garbage that goes with it. I do too. So, yeah.

I just send my support and positive thoughts. All we can do is our best....even if at times my best sucks. Only human after all.

I'll be thinking of you.

Hawkeye13

It seems like discharge is coming up soon O--is the facility getting you the aftercare you need, and are you ready to be home?

Obladi

Edit noted.


I know I'm more capable as well. What it's going to take is the willingness to scream and rail (rale?) and perhaps call someone to come sit on the couch next to me and say absolutely nothing. I did that while I was drinking last time, so I most certainly can do it sober. I called the guy from AA who ended up driving me here and that's exactly what he did for me- just sat on the couch next to me.

Obladi

Makes sense to me. I think that's where sticking my head in a bucket of ice comes in!

I was just notified that my new discharge date is next Wednesday. I may not actually stay that long, but it's good to have the security of staying in a relatively safe environment during this Family Wellness weekend. I was prepared to commute back n forth with the girls, but I'm not sure that they would have been prepared for that.

How was your trip to NY? Sorry I missed it this time.

Obladi

I'm ready to be home. I believe that any environment short of inpatient is equally risky for me, as I've proven that I can drink through/despite everything. This is why actually having the courage to actually call someone when I'm freaking out is so critical. I know I'm "only" facing the beast, but when I'm in the throes of it, I'm not nearly so rational as to put the "only" modifier on it.

I was thinking about my last post when I described being separate from myself and going on auto-pilot, and I realized that this is not quite true. I remembered that I reported to you all that one recent time I drank, I felt some sort of victorious (not the right word but I've no time to consult a thesaurus ) feeling when I was in the liquor store for the first time in four months "just like a regular person." The second time I drank just a couple of days after that was a detached sort of thing, but at least for the first time I had that sensation. For what it's worth, I wanted to set that record straight.

So Mother Hen wanted to have a word with me yesterday. Silly Rabbit that I am, I thought perhaps she wanted to say we should let bygones be bygones, HA. Silly Rabbit, amends are for healthy people. In fact what MH wanted to do was take me to task for some unknown something I'd said to some unknown person. I said quite honestly that I'd no idea what she was talking about. She accused me of all manner of skulduggery and deceit and animosity, and when I was persistent in pressing for more details finally outted with the information that her roommate had told her about the conversation we'd had a couple of weeks ago. The one where I verified that MH was not telling the truth about "taking over" with this new woman by helping her with her schedule. I am very much chagrined to tell you that MH got my goat. I swore at her and stormed away to talk with the counselor. I wanted to get to the counselor before she heard the rumors. Silly Rabbit some more, I know. But at that time, I was just trying to prevent a repeat of that Friday where MH and I landed in a room with a counselor and the counselors' manager.

That's what I stated going in anyhow. But it turns out that my feelings were hurt all over again at the unfairness of this situation. I expressed that (and what I needed) poorly and my counselor said "If you want to switch seats and be the counselor, we can do that." Which I thought was a rotten thing to say, but I slunk out of there a beaten woman. I thought about it overnight and decided I wanted to tell counselor the impact that sort of defensive/sarcastic response had on me (she'd done it once before when we first met), and we actually had a very productive conversation about it. She accepted my feedback (after a little bit of "no one has ever said this to me before" sort of deflection or evasion or whatever that was) and then actually congratulated me for addressing this head on.

Progress, not perfection, right?

Hawkeye13

Maybe let's put MH on "ignore" function for the next few day?