nolonger

Great thread, thanks for posing the questions Ted, and for engaging with everyone so patiently and thoughtfully – your brother is a very lucky man to have you.

I don’t disagree exactly. This is broadly true, but I’m not sure it is completely simple. It is maybe simple if you focus at the success stories, the ones who stop drinking and turn their lives around. But unfortunately, there are a lot of alcoholics who don’t recover. You might say “they never find something to value more than they value drinking� but that doesn’t take into account that many of them desperately, desperately want to stop, but cannot find a way. They kill themselves not in happy irresponsibility, but in misery, because they don’t want to drink anymore.

This insane compulsion to drink is something that seems to me to be very complex and difficult to comprehend. I suspect it can only be understood very slowly, if at all. In one way, drinking and recovery are as simple as you suggest, and like AA suggests – Don’t Drink, One Day at a Time. But in another way, alcoholism is mysterious, horrifying, profound. The model suggested here is an economic one of utility-maximization, but unfortunately (and fortunately) human beings and human experience are gnarlier and more difficult than that.

That's maybe why you occasionally hear alcoholics speak of how they are grateful to have the condition they do - that the whole terrible experience of alcoholism, if you can recover from it in some way, teaches you a lot about what is most important in life.

peace, nl.

GrouchoTheCat

There is no person walking the face of the Earth who demonstrates
more courage, dignity and integrity, on a daily basis, than an
addict in recovery.

AA membership is open to any and all who have a desire to stop drinking.

Non-Alcoholics can't join AA. It was tried many years ago and it just does not work.

Thats why alanon came along.

Ted, you have told me that you are trying to spend about an hour a day on this subject for the sake of your brother. You have also said that, "I see no need for Al-anon, though."

Why dont you take a day or two away from the forum and give it a try.

Here's a WOW moment.

There are alcoholics here actually suggesting that someone go to alanon!

Ted, if you only knew how absoutely incredible this is.

Best,

Ted W.

BP44

I suggested my wife go to al anon. How insane is that? I really am a glutton for punishment. LOL. I just want us both to recover. If she finds it useful great, if not, that's fine. It's her decision. We all have a path.

tedseeker

I just wanted to clarify my position. But now after thinking about it some, I want to scratch using the word "simple". The concept IS simple, but--like the word "disease" the term is too easy to confuse or be misinterpreted. Actual behavior is simple--you do something. But, the reasons WHY one behaves a certain way--WHY one prefers one value over another can be very complicated. Using the word "simple" probably gives the impression that I think WHY is not complicated. If the answer to that question was easy, this thread would have been done and over long ago. AA works for people because it helps change their values--that is not easy.

As for al-anon, I think it is probably very helpful. I've been to an al-anon meeting before. The big message I got was "it's not your fault" and "don't enable" and "live your own life". Well, the first two are actually somewhat contradictory, and I think I am living my own life even though I am wanting to influence someone I care about. I believe alcoholics can sometimes be influenced and if that is untrue I'll have to learn the hard way. I don't believe I can make my brother stop. But I think he is worth trying to influence. I think understanding the "why" of his behavior is relevant to influencing him.

take care,

ted

I think part of them wants to drink--the very sick part. They want to be numbed from their misery and they don't believe there is a better alternative that will work for them. The lack of belief creates a vacuum of values--there is NO value left that they draw upon to overcome the value alcohol has to them at that point in their lives. Lack of faith kills.

I don't disagree at all that that is often true. If I sounded like to do, I apologize.

take care,

ted

Gmoney

Ted,

Why does a description of disease have to be "complete?" It doesn't for me, but if you need an all-inclusive description to satisfy you...so be it. You continued to stress and put emphasis on behavior -drinking alcohol is the behavior that leads to alcoholism. Alcoholics don't get that way just by looking at or being around alcohol. Hence my point that there's no disease called "drinkingism." Smoking can lead to lung cancer, yet "smokingism" isn't the disease that can result from the behavior. The disease is addiction. No...I didn't blow past your point...I was the one that made the point: "The behavior that causes it isn't of utmost importance (chicken vs egg). People aren't born with the disease of smokingism for the same reason people aren't born with the disease of drinkingism." Liver cancer and Cirrhosis can be caused by the excessive drinking of alcohol just as lung cancer can be caused by smoking. Focusing on one behavior (or one symptom) doesn't remedy the disease, nor is it a "complete description" of how the disease is acquired.

No...I don't see your point and my words do not conflict. You just don't understand, and may never. What YOU choose to call something is your preference. One of the main reasons the 12 steps are used in various programs to help people with addictions is because they work! There's no need to label each manifestation of the disease of addiction. Addiction is the disease and whatever medical professionals prefer to call these manifestations isn't the issue. What you call it still isn't helping your brother stop, nor will choosing sides (pro-disease or anti-disease). Oh yeah...it's very probable that the behaviors mentioned DID pre-exist alcohol.

Once again, what seems a certain way to you DOESN'T seem the same way to others. The 12 steps are suggested as a program of recovery and to be guided through with a sponsor - someone who has EXPERIENCE with the 12 steps. Newcomers to AA/NA are confused period. One thing they aren't confused about is their using history, which includes unlimited failed attempts to control their drinking or using. These failed attempts illustrate to them their lack of power. Example: If an alcoholic tells himself that he isn't going to drink at all today, but ends up drinking for half a day - he has demonstrated that he lacks the willpower to do as planned. This scenario is played out over and over for most of us. Many an alcoholic/addict has told themselves they wouldn't do this or that, but did it anyway because they didn't have the POWER to control themselves. Going to the bar for one beer and ending up closing the bar drunk or in a blackout is what we mean by powerlessness. The same could be said for the recovering person who loves sneakers and goes to the store to buy one pair, but leaves with 3 pair, socks, teeshirts and much more than they planned to buy. The concept of powerlessness isn't the barrier to AA/NA or 12 step philosophy...denial and addiction is. Misunderstanding the 1st step and the admittance of powerlessness isn't why people aren't overly receptive in early recovery. Denial of their powerlessness and ego feeds the illusion of control.

In another thread, you mentioned that you were addictively in a situation for 15 years before you were able to get out of it or stop completely. I'm inclined to believe that you also understand the concept of powerlessness, otherwise you would have stopped sooner.

Pick-a-name

Ted: Two years ago i didn't think I needed Alanon,either. I just needed to "say the right thing" to MAKE my husband get help and stop drinking and doing all the destructive things in his life (and our family). It was clear to me and our kids....it was not (and still is not) clear to him,as far as I know. (he is still drinking;he just moved out and divorced me because he thought that maybe then we wouldn't "feel like drinking" as much....)

For those two years I have been reading and posting on the Family and Friends Forum (even though I didn't think I needed it,either ) and you know what....I did and do. Denial is a funny thing. You can not see it in yourself until you break it. Same for the family members as the alcoholic. Kinda like the guy I heard at an open speaker meeting of AA (those are great eye-openers for me,too; in small doses! so I don't drift back into feeling sorry again in an unhealthy way). He joked that AA must "cause" alcoholism because many people come into the rooms "NOT an alcoholic" and after being there a few months, a miraculous thing happens: many get up and announce that the ARE an alcoholic!

Take what you like of this and leave the rest.

p.s. It is confusing to understand.....sometimes accepting something by blind faith brings with it in the end the knowledge that could not be forced. JMHO

Good luck and thanks for this thread and they patient way everyone is sharing in a courteous way.

tedseeker

Maybe my addiction just wasn't as strong, so it is hard for me to have the same perspective as some here. There were plenty of times I said I would engage in a particular behavior for only say 1 hour, and I'd end up spending 2-3 hours, and sometimes most of the day. However, I knew exactly what I was doing--I was 'caught up' in the allure of the behavior. I chose to continue because I wanted to. I didn't feel powerless to control it because I was the one doing the choosing--I changed my mind and decided to NOT control it. That doesn't mean it controlled me. That means I decided to engage in an obsession because I wanted to, despite part of me not wanting to. The part of me that wanted to more was stronger than the part that didn't, once I engaged in the behavior. On, the other hand, that didn't always happen. Sometimes I stuck to the original plan.

Here's why I quit: I basically decided it was a waste of time, and in the end the enjoyment wasn't even based on actual reinforcement--the reinforcement was mostly in my own mind. The enjoyment seemed less than it had used to. And, I knew it was impeding me from growing as a person. And, I moved--so was in a new environment. I think all of these things made quitting fairly easy--other values won out over the value of the pleasure. Had the payoff been wonderful as it is for many alcoholics or terribly uncomfortable to quit as it is with many who become physically dependant it probably would have been a very hard thing to stop.


I bolded the part I have trouble with because of my own experience. Some might say I didn't have the power to control myself but as I said above, I simply changed what I wanted and DECIDED that I didn't want to control myself.

I'm bolding the following because I think this is one of the main points I have to make in this thread:

I have a real hard problem with the concept that people do something that they don't want to do. To me, some part of them really does want to do it if they do it. Maybe they wouldn't do it today, but at the time, they do. That's why to me at it's core it isn't a power issue. It's a values issue. The willpower is lacking because certain values aren't strong enough to overcome whatever values are fulfilled by the behavior.

AA teaches many values that build up the needed strength.



Quickly, about the disease stuff (I'm sure you're as sick of it as me ) though obviously part of me wants to say just a little more:
I see that you think of alcohol addiction as a disease, but I fail to see how lung cancer from smoking is relevant since lung cancer isn't addiction. You mention two diseases related to alcohol: liver cancer, and the addiction. It confuses me, but I'm willing to drop it if you are. I will agree Gary, that it is a process that looks like a disease in certain ways, so if it helps people to think of it in that way I'm happy for them even though I have some reservations about whether that is a good word to use for other reasons. Your point about sponsors is well-taken, though.

Thanks for patiently sharing your views with me. take care,

ted

tedseeker

Thanks Pick-a-name. Wow, that really sounds a lot like me with my brother. I cling to the hope that maybe I'll "say the right thing" that will influence him, though I know it might not happen, and I can't make him change. Maybe I really should go over there to the other thread.. I honestly don't see a need for it now, but that's just me, and just now

thanks again. take care,

ted

barb dwyer

Isn't that Alanon step one?

Gmoney

Ted, You're so right. I am a bit tired of this...and I'm sure others are too. As I said in a previous thread, a new idea cannot be grafted unto a closed mind. When I said that, I believe you thought I was talking about your brother, but I was talking about you. After I make this last entry to this thread, I'll surrender because there's nothing left to say. We're spinning our wheels here.

Your words here sound exactly like what someone in active addiction would say to rationalize and justify their using. Whether an addiction is "strong" or weak is a judgment call, but from the outside looking in...I'd say it was pretty strong for it to last 15 years before you "decided" to stop. Some alcoholics/addicts take that long to recognize they have a problem and get clean/sober. Some more, some less. I would even say that your decision to stop was your "bottom" and it took you 15 years to get there. I guess it's cool to believe that you controlled your behavior, but for you to stay involved in it for 15 years...knowing you were "caught up" ??? That says alot.

I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding that. I guess, maybe it's because YOU do EVERYTHING you want or don't want to. Or, as it has already been said, you CAN'T understand it because you're not an alcoholic/addict. It's beyond your comprehension. It's beyond your power - you are powerless. And if you're implying that people who have experienced powerlessness over their addictions lack strong values or morals...you are sadly mistaken. Alcoholism/addiction is an equal-opportunity destroyer that doesn't discriminate. Your upbringing, education, socio-economic status, or beliefs aren't enough protection and willpower isn't the answer. You don't accept the concept because you don't want to.

Alcohol is a drug. Drinking alcohol is a behavior. Addiction is a disease. Alcohol addiction is called alcoholism. Nicotine is the drug. Smoking is a behavior. There is no term for smoking addiction, yet addiction itself is a disease. Drinking alcohol (alcoholically) can (and does) cause liver cancer. Smoking can (and does) cause lung cancer. I can't break it down any further.

With that said, I must admit that I'm now doubting whether it is your brother that has the drinking problem. No defense or explanation is needed. It's just my belief that you're the one. I now wash my hands and will not post again on this thread.

Good luck.

barb dwyer

I dunno what's so hard about that one. I go to work very day ...

nolonger

Play golf at all? ...I stand on the tee, I really want to hit a great shot. I know I should I shouldn't rush the swing, I really really want to hit it nice and smooth, just take it easy. And... I snatch at the ball, mess it up totally, slice into the sand...

I don't think you're an addict though. All human beings do strange, irrational stuff like this all the time and most of the time there's nothing wrong with it. We should be careful not to pathologize all of human behavior. But for alcoholics like me, there's one added thing, booze, that makes this irrational, perverse compulsion very dangerous, for me and everyone around me.

Pilgrim

I stayed drinking because I was very embarassed to admit I had no control. It's like peeing my pants. I feel ashamed and humiliated. I don't need to dwell on it please. I really don't feel like having my face rubbed in it either. It's private.

tedseeker

I'm sorry Barb, but I don't believe it is appropriate to not want to influence someone who needs help. I don't know what step one is, but if that is what it is I want no part of it.

I wrote Part of you wants to--the part that needs money to live. Here is what I wrote again:

'hit a great shot' isn't what I'm talking about. Your putting a stipulation of perfection on the outcome of your behavior. 'hit' is what I'm talking about. That is the actual behavior. Just like 'drinking a beer'. Not 'drinking to a state of drunkenness'. I hope that explains better what I'm saying.

Did you ever drink without some positive expectation? I'm saying that I have a hard time with the concept that you ever did.

ted

GlassPrisoner

Paraphrased, not exact

Most people have problem with the unmanageable part. It simply means there's really not much in life we can control. The ultimate outcome is not ours to influence.

Remember the 3 Cs.

You didn't Cause it
You can't Control it
You can't Cure it

tedseeker

Ok. I think I'm open, but maybe I'm not.


Then that is a coincidence. I'm not an addict.

All it says is I had a behavioral addiction. One that I chose. I'm not trying to be cool. Just telling you the truth.


It's because I don't believe powers beyond my control determine my choice of one thing over another. I do.


It's true that I want to believe we control our own choices. If not us, who? However, the reason I don't accept the concept that we do things that we 100% do not want to do is because I've never seen any evidence for it. My alcoholic brother says "I like to drink". And, I used to say "Part of me likes what I'm doing" about my own behavioral addiction.



The problem I had is that you were comparing lung cancer with alcoholism, rather than liver disease. You were suggesting that since lung cancer is a disease alcoholism should also be called a disease. You were comparing apples to oranges. The truth is you don't think of alcoholism as a disease because it is like lung cancer, or because it causes liver cancer. You think of alcoholism as a disease because you think of addiction as a disease. So lung cancer would seem really to have nothing to do with calling alcoholism a disease.


And to you too. take care,

ted
__________________

barb dwyer

In fact, Ted, I don't know anything about Al anon ... it was a joke.

however, with a tad of truth to it.

by trying to infulence an alcoholic ... a 'bad' situation ... can assuredly grow worse.

we don't take well to that.
influence, manipulation, intimidation ....
which is why the only thing that works is a program of attraction ...
rather than promotion.

All the intellectualizing in the world ... isn't going to change that.

TexasDumb

There are some thinkers on this site.

Too bad, nobody can win.

Carry on!

nolonger

Of course! I’m not saying that alcoholics somehow have to force the booze down! I drank with pleasure, and often with joy, and even when I was in and around my “bottom,” I was trying to stave off the pain (negative pleasure, sort of) of not having any booze in me, or having to face up to what I was, and what I was doing. There is always, in some way, a choice involved, no question...

But...and at the risk of getting horribly philosophical here… what I basically meant was that the psychological model you are using to understand alcoholism (a kind of utilitarianism, whereby humans are goal-oriented utility-maximizing actors, in a way always rational, even in their apparent irrationalism, even if they don’t understand what drives their choices) is a good one, but a very limited one.

If you want to understand not just “why does my brother pick up a drink when it is no f***ing good for him” but “what is the pain like that he suffers? What is he experiencing?” then you might have to go beyond a rationalist, economistic approach.

That’s why golf, and sports in general (playing them), are good ways for me to understand addiction and recovery, although they might seem awfully trivial. It’s not about the “perfect outcome” – but about the way our stubborn, stupid bodies and minds can rebel against our best-meaning selves, and the frustration and pain that results.

To escape that horror, you need strength and hope, and courage. Those are things that don’t negate or replace rationality, utility, pleasure-pain calculations, etc., but they are completely different to them.

Tazman53

Ted speaking of powerlessness, let us put the shoe on the other foot.

Let us see if you are powerless over something. Call up your brother and tell him "Stop drinking" in your most elaborate way. Do you have any power over him?

Okay let us see if you have control over your desire to control his drinking. Do not come here and post or contact your brother for a week and not research ways you hop will help him. Would doing this bother you mentally?

In order for an alcoholic to stop drinking the first thing they have to do is realize that they can not ever drink like a normal person, they have no power once they have had that first drink, they do not know the outcome after that first drink every time.