Questioning "Under the Influence" conclusions
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Originally Posted by BP44 
Ted, in my experience, I have found that most if not all alcoholics had an abnormal experience with the very first drink. Myself included. My very first drink was utter nirvana, so obviously the second was gonna be even better. Music's experience is a common occurence. I know it is baffling to the non alcoholic and the alcoholic as well. Here's the difference. When someone tells you that, the response is, " wow, you really had an abnormal reaction to the first drink" When I hear that same description of the first drink I say, " yep, I know what you mean brother, it was the answer to the still unknown question"
ted
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Originally Posted by zencat
I agree, the use of the term “disease” needs to be clarified to a more definitive usage
Rather than percise way to trace the cause of the problem, I believe the disease concept applied to alcoholism is partly an attempt to illicit compassion for the alcoholic . At some point the person using alcohol, for whatever reason, crosses that invisible line into disaster. At that point, no moral or ethical judgment of behavior serves any useful purpose other than to judge the alcohol dependent person punitively and shame them further down into the abyss of despair.
I think if one believes he has no power to quit (which the disease concept seems to foster) he is more likely to not quit. The term in psychology is learned helplessness. All that being said, I still think compassion should be the overriding attitude because clearly they are on a path of self-destruction, and often are very good people.
ted
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I"m sorry everyone. I'm repeating myself a lot, and that can be annoying like a broken record. I'm also sorry if I come across as a know it all. I hope I don't. I don't know--as others have said I really can't know for sure--but I guess I have some rather strong beliefs. I appreciate everyone's perspective here, because it--if I"m not a fool--they should help me come to a more accurate and realistic understanding of what is possible and what is advisable and what isn't.
Thanks to everyone.
ted
Thanks to everyone.
ted
dum vita est spes est
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Ted,
That last post was one that actually got me to post.
Look man - here's how it is. Trying to "figure out" alcoholism or addiction is like finding your way out of a circular maze - once in, there is no beginning and no end. However, *you* may meet some survivors in your journey that tell you what you can and can't do to survive despite never escaping.
Nature vs. Nurture is a debate far beyond the scope of alcoholism alone. And to be truthfull anyone with a mental disease should have been naturally allowed to self-destruct...BUT we are given both the means, the knowledge, and the desire to help others - so we do, despite genetics and natural selection. We, at a fundamental level, work as a tribe to keep our kind safe from harm.
So, in the end you are left with something each of us has. A choice. Do you rationalize, argue, disbelieve, counter-argue? Or do you accept it as it is, and put the sword down, realizing fighting it only makes it more powerful?
PR
That last post was one that actually got me to post.
Look man - here's how it is. Trying to "figure out" alcoholism or addiction is like finding your way out of a circular maze - once in, there is no beginning and no end. However, *you* may meet some survivors in your journey that tell you what you can and can't do to survive despite never escaping.
Nature vs. Nurture is a debate far beyond the scope of alcoholism alone. And to be truthfull anyone with a mental disease should have been naturally allowed to self-destruct...BUT we are given both the means, the knowledge, and the desire to help others - so we do, despite genetics and natural selection. We, at a fundamental level, work as a tribe to keep our kind safe from harm.
So, in the end you are left with something each of us has. A choice. Do you rationalize, argue, disbelieve, counter-argue? Or do you accept it as it is, and put the sword down, realizing fighting it only makes it more powerful?
PR
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I wrote:
Ted wrote: Once again, you've blown right past the point. The point is that cancer is a disease. It's progressive, often incurable and often very fatal. The same can (and is) said of alcoholism and addiction. The behavior that causes it isn't of utmost importance (chicken vs egg). People aren't born with the disease of smokingism for the same reason people aren't born with the disease of drinkingism. "People drink alcohol, they get hooked, they get physically dependant, they violate their own moral codes sometimes, and they get cravings and obsessions. Some drink even after being told they will die if they continue." As I'm sure you've noticed, I substituted the words drink and drink alcohol, yet I could insert any number of behaviors that can (and do) cause disease. Oh yeah...to answer your question about the comparable cancer from drinking...it's called Hepatitis and/or Liver Cirrhosis.
Here's something else you've bypassed in previous posts (by others) with a minimum of concern: Alcohol (or drugs, for that matter) are just a symptom of the disease. Many, if not most, people in recovery will tell you that once the substance is removed from their lives, they've found that they're obsessive, compulsive and self-centered in almost every other area of their lives. So, in this way, the disease isn't cured....a symptom is simply arrested. The good news is that whatever program we've applied to relieve ourselves of one symptom, can be applied to give us freedom from others. Recovery isn't an event or occurrence, it's a process and a journey. Many who have claimed to be cured were devastated by relapses after 10, 20 or 30 years clean (sober).
Yes...your beliefs are very strong, yet you acknowledge through-out your writings a sense of unsureness (words like: if, maybe, sometimes & why). I applaud your efforts to understand, but I really hope you reach a point of surrender and acceptance. As I mentioned previously, not only are you powerless over your brother's alcoholism... you're powerless over his addiction as well. And finally, my understanding of powerlessness is common amongst 12 step people...it's those on the outside that hear the term and jump to negative conclusions.
The person who smokes cigarettes and develops lung cancer can be viewed as someone suffering from a "behavioral disease", according to Ted. Yet, the person who never smoked and gets lung cancer has the same disease (cancer). Is the person who never smoked any less sick, suffering or diseased? Did the person who never smoked have a choice? And what about all those that smoke all their lives and never get cancer? The term "behavioral disease" is only satisfactory to those who are looking for loopholes or ways to qualify their views.
It's a little different. Why aren't people born with the disease of smokingism? People smoke, they get hooked, they get physically dependant, they violate their own moral codes sometimes, and they get cravings and obsessions. Some smoke even after being told they will die if they continue. Some smoke even while they have emphasema (sp?). Yet when they stop we don't say they still have a disease called smokingism. Why not?
As for lung cancer, where is the comparable cancer from drinking? It isn't something we call alcoholism because that isn't comparable. Lung cancer is physical and usually doesn't clear up if one stops smoking unless treated, I believe. The physical and mental states of alcoholics clear up (at least mostly I believe) when they stop, if they don't have some specific disease as a result of drinking.
As for lung cancer, where is the comparable cancer from drinking? It isn't something we call alcoholism because that isn't comparable. Lung cancer is physical and usually doesn't clear up if one stops smoking unless treated, I believe. The physical and mental states of alcoholics clear up (at least mostly I believe) when they stop, if they don't have some specific disease as a result of drinking.
Here's something else you've bypassed in previous posts (by others) with a minimum of concern: Alcohol (or drugs, for that matter) are just a symptom of the disease. Many, if not most, people in recovery will tell you that once the substance is removed from their lives, they've found that they're obsessive, compulsive and self-centered in almost every other area of their lives. So, in this way, the disease isn't cured....a symptom is simply arrested. The good news is that whatever program we've applied to relieve ourselves of one symptom, can be applied to give us freedom from others. Recovery isn't an event or occurrence, it's a process and a journey. Many who have claimed to be cured were devastated by relapses after 10, 20 or 30 years clean (sober).
Yes...your beliefs are very strong, yet you acknowledge through-out your writings a sense of unsureness (words like: if, maybe, sometimes & why). I applaud your efforts to understand, but I really hope you reach a point of surrender and acceptance. As I mentioned previously, not only are you powerless over your brother's alcoholism... you're powerless over his addiction as well. And finally, my understanding of powerlessness is common amongst 12 step people...it's those on the outside that hear the term and jump to negative conclusions.
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I've followed this thread with interest - there's lots of fascinating and stimulating information here. I often feel when I read debates like this that there are two distinct conversations going on, and the boundaries between those conversations become very blurry. Parts of the conversation which should take place on one side, start to take place on the other.
One conversation is about the science of addiction. The other conversation is about the experience of recovery. The first is sort of objective. The second is really quite subjective. The whole "disease" thing is a really interesting example of this - the word obviously is used in both these conversations, but not neccesarily in the same way. The way I use it is quite metaphorical - disease for me means "condition I have which is beyond my control". I choose not to particularly argue about whether it's a disease in the first sense of the word, but I know that if I treat my condition as if it's a disease, in the second sense - well, for some reason that helps me get better. We can have all manner of debates about whether or not it's a disease in the first sense. Frankly, for me these are sterile debates - but that's not to say they're sterile in and of themselves, and if you and others want to have those debates then that's great! But it will never change my position - that until I accepted my alcoholism as a condition over which I had no control, I couldn't get sober, so I'll continue to treat it as such!
The BB tells me that AA provides a "bridge to normal living", not to a PhD in addictive psychology, physiology, biochemistry or genetics. I'm invited to share my "experience, strength and hope". not my "theories, beliefs and opinions". I'm sure that sounds a bit Luddite, a bit Philistine. But I'm doing a masters degree in something quite different, and while my old ego would tell me that I "should" be able to understand everything, my slightly deflated one is happy just to learn about one or two areas. And I'm happy to share my ESH with both alcoholics and non-alcoholics - as long as they don't then try and undermine my ESH and tell me that I'm in some way "wrong"! I'll tell anyone who wants to listen how I got sober - but I'm afraid our paths go separately when they start to tell me how I should have done it!
And being honest TedS, I'm always deeply suspicious of the motives of non-alcoholics who wish to "prove a point" to alcoholics about the nature of our condition. For some reason it always reminds me of a speaker I saw many years ago talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He said - and he was a Palestinian - too many people around the world think they understand or can evaluate the Palestinian's situation. But they only think they understand. Only the Palestinian people have the right to define their own oppression. When it comes to the experience of alcoholism - whether that's a disease or a set of behaviours - only I can speak about it with authority.
One conversation is about the science of addiction. The other conversation is about the experience of recovery. The first is sort of objective. The second is really quite subjective. The whole "disease" thing is a really interesting example of this - the word obviously is used in both these conversations, but not neccesarily in the same way. The way I use it is quite metaphorical - disease for me means "condition I have which is beyond my control". I choose not to particularly argue about whether it's a disease in the first sense of the word, but I know that if I treat my condition as if it's a disease, in the second sense - well, for some reason that helps me get better. We can have all manner of debates about whether or not it's a disease in the first sense. Frankly, for me these are sterile debates - but that's not to say they're sterile in and of themselves, and if you and others want to have those debates then that's great! But it will never change my position - that until I accepted my alcoholism as a condition over which I had no control, I couldn't get sober, so I'll continue to treat it as such!
The BB tells me that AA provides a "bridge to normal living", not to a PhD in addictive psychology, physiology, biochemistry or genetics. I'm invited to share my "experience, strength and hope". not my "theories, beliefs and opinions". I'm sure that sounds a bit Luddite, a bit Philistine. But I'm doing a masters degree in something quite different, and while my old ego would tell me that I "should" be able to understand everything, my slightly deflated one is happy just to learn about one or two areas. And I'm happy to share my ESH with both alcoholics and non-alcoholics - as long as they don't then try and undermine my ESH and tell me that I'm in some way "wrong"! I'll tell anyone who wants to listen how I got sober - but I'm afraid our paths go separately when they start to tell me how I should have done it!
And being honest TedS, I'm always deeply suspicious of the motives of non-alcoholics who wish to "prove a point" to alcoholics about the nature of our condition. For some reason it always reminds me of a speaker I saw many years ago talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He said - and he was a Palestinian - too many people around the world think they understand or can evaluate the Palestinian's situation. But they only think they understand. Only the Palestinian people have the right to define their own oppression. When it comes to the experience of alcoholism - whether that's a disease or a set of behaviours - only I can speak about it with authority.
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Ted you know the word disease I feel is a sticking point for many, let me put another spin on this and rather then calling alcoholism a disease let us call it physiological differences between alcoholics and non-alcoholics.
Alcoholics livers process alcohol differently then a non-alcoholics liver.
Alcoholics develop a higher and higher tolerance to alcohol, non-alcoholics never develop this to the point an alcoholic does. (some alcoholics function normally with a BAC of .20)
Going back to the liver scientist tested the livers of children who had never drank alcohol to see how they processed alcohol.
The results of the test done on children where neither parent was alcoholic was that their liver processed alcohol normally.
The results of the test done on children where one or both parents were alcoholic was that some of their livers processed alcohol normally & others processed alcohol like an alcoholic. This proved that even though they had never consumed alcohol, thier livers did not process alcohol normally.
Disease? I do not know that for sure, but it is proven scientifically that there are physical differences between alcoholics/potential alcoholics and normal people.
################################################## #####
Ted I saw you were thinking about a survey about an alcoholics first drink. For me it was beer, I was 11 or 12, it tasted like crap, but there was an immediate warmth throughout my whole body, an additional feeling of WOW this is how I should feel all the time and I want more of this! All in the world was good and I felt empowered, self assured..... over all it was a great feeling that I wanted to keep all the time. When my friends and I would drink we would each get a 6 pack, most of them would not want any more then 2 or 3, they said "Man I have had enough, I don't feel good!", I would of course drink the rest of thiers basking in the feeling and also feeling superior because I could drink more then them!
As others have said whether it is a disease or not, it is a problem for us. Label it what you want, it really does not matter, there are proven physicalogical differences between alcoholics and non-alcoholics.
As some one already stated though and I fully understand alcohol is but a symptom of alcoholism, take away our alcohol and we are still different, our brains/thought processes are different. We have to learn that the world does not revolve around us and every problem we have is not the fault od some one else or some thing else. We need to learn when we have done some one harm that we should say we are sorry and not harm them again. We have a lot to learn, a lot to change, because if we do nothing but stop drinking, we will drink again.
Alcoholics livers process alcohol differently then a non-alcoholics liver.
Alcoholics develop a higher and higher tolerance to alcohol, non-alcoholics never develop this to the point an alcoholic does. (some alcoholics function normally with a BAC of .20)
Going back to the liver scientist tested the livers of children who had never drank alcohol to see how they processed alcohol.
The results of the test done on children where neither parent was alcoholic was that their liver processed alcohol normally.
The results of the test done on children where one or both parents were alcoholic was that some of their livers processed alcohol normally & others processed alcohol like an alcoholic. This proved that even though they had never consumed alcohol, thier livers did not process alcohol normally.
Disease? I do not know that for sure, but it is proven scientifically that there are physical differences between alcoholics/potential alcoholics and normal people.
################################################## #####
Ted I saw you were thinking about a survey about an alcoholics first drink. For me it was beer, I was 11 or 12, it tasted like crap, but there was an immediate warmth throughout my whole body, an additional feeling of WOW this is how I should feel all the time and I want more of this! All in the world was good and I felt empowered, self assured..... over all it was a great feeling that I wanted to keep all the time. When my friends and I would drink we would each get a 6 pack, most of them would not want any more then 2 or 3, they said "Man I have had enough, I don't feel good!", I would of course drink the rest of thiers basking in the feeling and also feeling superior because I could drink more then them!
As others have said whether it is a disease or not, it is a problem for us. Label it what you want, it really does not matter, there are proven physicalogical differences between alcoholics and non-alcoholics.
As some one already stated though and I fully understand alcohol is but a symptom of alcoholism, take away our alcohol and we are still different, our brains/thought processes are different. We have to learn that the world does not revolve around us and every problem we have is not the fault od some one else or some thing else. We need to learn when we have done some one harm that we should say we are sorry and not harm them again. We have a lot to learn, a lot to change, because if we do nothing but stop drinking, we will drink again.
Last edited by Tazman53; 06-05-2007 at 04:29 AM.
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ted...
i nevered wanted to stopped drinking..even when i tried to stopped drinking
after i came to AA..i ended up relapesing over and over again..
i can't put a month or two together...i can do that without AA or before
AA. Those are my facts..the more I tired to quit the more i drank.
I bascially gave up trying to quit drinking or getting sober..
I trun it all over to a HP or god or whatever the heck it is...becuase
I did my experiments and servey..i got my arss kicked.
that how i statyed sober..i gave up figthing it.
the paradox of being powerless to alcohol is not a big deal..
As long as i'm plug into a higher power..it's call being humble.
yes..it's also call smashing the ego
commonsense would tell me..I'm better off with god on my side
no matter what happens. I'm better off if I don't have to fight
this thing that we term alcoholism or a disease to try to discribe it.
well..people has to give it term to identify it..
like i said..i have a lot of willpower...it takes a lot of willpower
for me to trun my will and life over to god...
why ?...becuase I hated god or didn't understand god nor wanted
to to work the steps. it takes alot of willpower for me to ask for help
why?....i have a big ego..
Because after you take the drink out of me...there still remainds
me..yeah me with all those behaviors problems and it takes alot
of willpower for me to work on them . it takes a lot of willpower
for me to face my fears. It takes a lot willpower me to get down on
me knees and pray to god even when i don't beliving in god.
It takes a lot of willpower for me to leave people or drinking buddies
behind.
But ya know...i don't have to do it alone..i don't have to
re-invent the wheels. Millions and millions of people got sober
and experince a lot of pit falls..they made a path for me already.
and can show me the pit falls..they also found a way out.
Somewhere in my thick skull...there's whiz kid inside of me that'll
figure it out...all i have to do is be humble and ask for help
from a group of people or god or a hp or work the 12 steps.
it's not going to kill me to came to belive in god ....like alocohol was doing.
i nevered wanted to stopped drinking..even when i tried to stopped drinking
after i came to AA..i ended up relapesing over and over again..
i can't put a month or two together...i can do that without AA or before
AA. Those are my facts..the more I tired to quit the more i drank.
I bascially gave up trying to quit drinking or getting sober..
I trun it all over to a HP or god or whatever the heck it is...becuase
I did my experiments and servey..i got my arss kicked.
that how i statyed sober..i gave up figthing it.
the paradox of being powerless to alcohol is not a big deal..
As long as i'm plug into a higher power..it's call being humble.
yes..it's also call smashing the ego
commonsense would tell me..I'm better off with god on my side
no matter what happens. I'm better off if I don't have to fight
this thing that we term alcoholism or a disease to try to discribe it.
well..people has to give it term to identify it..
like i said..i have a lot of willpower...it takes a lot of willpower
for me to trun my will and life over to god...
why ?...becuase I hated god or didn't understand god nor wanted
to to work the steps. it takes alot of willpower for me to ask for help
why?....i have a big ego..
Because after you take the drink out of me...there still remainds
me..yeah me with all those behaviors problems and it takes alot
of willpower for me to work on them . it takes a lot of willpower
for me to face my fears. It takes a lot willpower me to get down on
me knees and pray to god even when i don't beliving in god.
It takes a lot of willpower for me to leave people or drinking buddies
behind.
But ya know...i don't have to do it alone..i don't have to
re-invent the wheels. Millions and millions of people got sober
and experince a lot of pit falls..they made a path for me already.
and can show me the pit falls..they also found a way out.
Somewhere in my thick skull...there's whiz kid inside of me that'll
figure it out...all i have to do is be humble and ask for help
from a group of people or god or a hp or work the 12 steps.
it's not going to kill me to came to belive in god ....like alocohol was doing.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
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Cancer and diabetes are constantly used as examples of diseases when arguing about alcoholism, and whether or not it's a disease. I've known people who had/have cancer and diabetes, and any one of them, if given an opportunity to work 12 simple steps and a guarantee that if worked and reworked, these 12 steps would arrest their disease would jump at the chance, rather than take the necessary treatment. Here we have people arguing about the word disease just to get out of working those 12 steps. This discussion in itself is proof the dis-ease exists. The ego is a powerful thing.
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
Originally Posted by Music
Cancer and diabetes are constantly used as examples of diseases when arguing about alcoholism, and whether or not it's a disease.....Here we have people arguing about the word disease just to get out of working those 12 steps. This discussion in itself is proof the dis-ease exists. The ego is a powerful thing.
Tazman...you rock!!!!
As others have said whether it is a disease or not, it is a problem for us. Label it what you want, it really does not matter, there are proven physicalogical differences between alcoholics and non-alcoholics.
As some one already stated though and I fully understand alcohol is but a symptom of alcoholism, take away our alcohol and we are still different, our brains/thought processes are different. We have to learn that the world does not revolve around us and every problem we have is not the fault od some one else or some thing else. We need to learn when we have done some one harm that we should say we are sorry and not harm them again. We have a lot to learn, a lot to change, because if we do nothing but stop drinking, we will drink again.
As some one already stated though and I fully understand alcohol is but a symptom of alcoholism, take away our alcohol and we are still different, our brains/thought processes are different. We have to learn that the world does not revolve around us and every problem we have is not the fault od some one else or some thing else. We need to learn when we have done some one harm that we should say we are sorry and not harm them again. We have a lot to learn, a lot to change, because if we do nothing but stop drinking, we will drink again.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
lol.. another way it acts like a disease is... it affects the people around us,
or our family members..they don't catch the contact buzz..
They just get the contagiousness or virus of insanity or chaos.
If that's not a defintion of a disease..then i don't know is.lol
or our family members..they don't catch the contact buzz..
They just get the contagiousness or virus of insanity or chaos.
If that's not a defintion of a disease..then i don't know is.lol
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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Seeing as how you are quoting AA, perhaps you should turn to one of their favorite phrases... take what you like, leave the rest behind.
I found the book incredibly informative and helpful. I needed something based on science, not on just experience... sorry, but that is what worked for me.
Cheers, Levi
I found the book incredibly informative and helpful. I needed something based on science, not on just experience... sorry, but that is what worked for me.
Cheers, Levi
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by PurpleReign
So, in the end you are left with something each of us has. A choice. Do you rationalize, argue, disbelieve, counter-argue? Or do you accept it as it is, and put the sword down, realizing fighting it only makes it more powerful?PR
I agree with you. It is all about choosing. You choose to drink or not.
What you can't choose is how alcohol affects you. It affects you the way it does. Accept it. Don't fight it. Either you allow it to do that by drinking or you don't.
Hopefully you value something else more than the effect of alcohol. That's when you don't drink. That's when a bottom is hit. For some it is life itself. For those less addicted it is a relationship. For those less addicted perhaps it is self respect or health.
To me it is that simple. Note, I didn't say EASY. It is FAR FROM EASY.
The behavior is simple--either you raise a drink to your mouth or you don't. Choosing one value over another can be HARD. Thus the pain of shame, embarrassment even while you are getting drunk, knowing you have a problem but also that you aren't ready to deal with it. Why aren't you ready? You value the effect of the alcohol on you more than anything else.
Does anyone disagree with this?
ted
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Posts: 95
Originally Posted by GarryW
Once again, you've blown right past the point. The point is that cancer is a disease. It's progressive, often incurable and often very fatal. The same can (and is) said of alcoholism and addiction.
Here's something else you've bypassed in previous posts (by others) with a minimum of concern: Alcohol (or drugs, for that matter) are just a symptom of the disease. Many, if not most, people in recovery will tell you that once the substance is removed from their lives, they've found that they're obsessive, compulsive and self-centered in almost every other area of their lives. So, in this way, the disease isn't cured....a symptom is simply arrested.
You are implying that the obsessiveness, compulsiveness and self-centeredness existed before the alcohol. I call those problems of development, or perhaps disorders, and not diseases. It is possible though that they didn't pre-exist alcohol, and alcohol caused them to appear or to become more prominent. In any case, the reason I think it did that is simple: If you love alcohol--or anything for that matter--ENOUGH, it will bring out obsessiveness, compulsiveness, and self-centeredness. It's innately a human trait. The 12 steps teach how to put them back into balance, and I think that is great. The 12 steps also are used in many programs unrelated to alcohol. Gambling, sexual compulsion, shoplifting, lying, etc.. I prefer not to call those diseases however either.
The good news is that whatever program we've applied to relieve ourselves of one symptom, can be applied to give us freedom from others.
And finally, my understanding of powerlessness is common amongst 12 step people...it's those on the outside that hear the term and jump to negative conclusions.
ted
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Originally Posted by paulmh
And being honest TedS, I'm always deeply suspicious of the motives of non-alcoholics who wish to "prove a point" to alcoholics about the nature of our condition. For some reason it always reminds me of a speaker I saw many years ago talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He said - and he was a Palestinian - too many people around the world think they understand or can evaluate the Palestinian's situation. But they only think they understand. Only the Palestinian people have the right to define their own oppression. When it comes to the experience of alcoholism - whether that's a disease or a set of behaviours - only I can speak about it with authority.
However, if your experience is different and your recovery is working, that is what matters for you.
take care,
ted
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Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Tazman53
Ted you know the word disease I feel is a sticking point for many, let me put another spin on this and rather then calling alcoholism a disease let us call it physiological differences between alcoholics and non-alcoholics.
Alcoholics livers process alcohol differently then a non-alcoholics liver.
Alcoholics develop a higher and higher tolerance to alcohol, non-alcoholics never develop this to the point an alcoholic does. (some alcoholics function normally with a BAC of .20)
Going back to the liver scientist tested the livers of children who had never drank alcohol to see how they processed alcohol.
The results of the test done on children where neither parent was alcoholic was that their liver processed alcohol normally.
The results of the test done on children where one or both parents were alcoholic was that some of their livers processed alcohol normally & others processed alcohol like an alcoholic. This proved that even though they had never consumed alcohol, thier livers did not process alcohol normally.
Disease? I do not know that for sure, but it is proven scientifically that there are physical differences between alcoholics/potential alcoholics and normal people.
Alcoholics livers process alcohol differently then a non-alcoholics liver.
Alcoholics develop a higher and higher tolerance to alcohol, non-alcoholics never develop this to the point an alcoholic does. (some alcoholics function normally with a BAC of .20)
Going back to the liver scientist tested the livers of children who had never drank alcohol to see how they processed alcohol.
The results of the test done on children where neither parent was alcoholic was that their liver processed alcohol normally.
The results of the test done on children where one or both parents were alcoholic was that some of their livers processed alcohol normally & others processed alcohol like an alcoholic. This proved that even though they had never consumed alcohol, thier livers did not process alcohol normally.
Disease? I do not know that for sure, but it is proven scientifically that there are physical differences between alcoholics/potential alcoholics and normal people.
As others have said whether it is a disease or not, it is a problem for us. Label it what you want, it really does not matter, there are proven physicalogical differences between alcoholics and non-alcoholics.
take away our alcohol and we are still different, our brains/thought processes are different. We have to learn that the world does not revolve around us and every problem we have is not the fault od some one else or some thing else. We need to learn when we have done some one harm that we should say we are sorry and not harm them again. We have a lot to learn, a lot to change, because if we do nothing but stop drinking, we will drink again.
ted
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by SaTiT
ted...
i nevered wanted to stopped drinking..even when i tried to stopped drinking
after i came to AA..i ended up relapesing over and over again..
i can't put a month or two together...i can do that without AA or before
AA. Those are my facts..the more I tired to quit the more i drank.
I bascially gave up trying to quit drinking or getting sober..
I trun it all over to a HP or god or whatever the heck it is...becuase
I did my experiments and servey..i got my arss kicked.
that how i statyed sober..i gave up figthing it.
i nevered wanted to stopped drinking..even when i tried to stopped drinking
after i came to AA..i ended up relapesing over and over again..
i can't put a month or two together...i can do that without AA or before
AA. Those are my facts..the more I tired to quit the more i drank.
I bascially gave up trying to quit drinking or getting sober..
I trun it all over to a HP or god or whatever the heck it is...becuase
I did my experiments and servey..i got my arss kicked.
that how i statyed sober..i gave up figthing it.
take care,
ted
dum vita est spes est
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: vita secundum nex
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by tedseeker
To me it is that simple. Does anyone disagree with this?
ted
ted
PR
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by PurpleReign
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by tedseeker
To me it is that simple. Does anyone disagree with this?
I've filtered all that needs to be presented. Good luck with your brother - you need to visit the halls of Al-anon my friend. Good luck.
PR
Just so no one misunderstands, what I wrote was
To me it is that simple. Note, I didn't say EASY. It is FAR FROM EASY.
I think the reasons why one drinks and why one stops drinking are important, and that is why I began this thread. They are important because unraveling them should help with finding more effective methods of prevention, intervention, and recovery.
ted
dum vita est spes est
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: vita secundum nex
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by tedseeker
Thanks. I see no need for Al-anon, though.
Just so no one misunderstands, what I wrote was
I was talking about alcohol addiction--as with any behavior--it is basically a values issue. You drink because you value drinking more than not drinking. You stop because you value not drinking over drinking. There are many variables which affect our values--that part is not simple, and that is why many find 12 steps and other approaches to be very helpful. All I meant by the above is that at it's core it is a values problem. Not a moral problem. But a values problem--valuing drinking--for whatever reasons, over not drinking. I think those reasons are important, and that is why I began this thread.
ted
Just so no one misunderstands, what I wrote was
I was talking about alcohol addiction--as with any behavior--it is basically a values issue. You drink because you value drinking more than not drinking. You stop because you value not drinking over drinking. There are many variables which affect our values--that part is not simple, and that is why many find 12 steps and other approaches to be very helpful. All I meant by the above is that at it's core it is a values problem. Not a moral problem. But a values problem--valuing drinking--for whatever reasons, over not drinking. I think those reasons are important, and that is why I began this thread.
ted
I was hoping you'd prove me wrong. I anticipated your answer, to be honest the content didn't matter - just the point the you had to have control of the thread...the situation...the moment. Cool man, I'm the same way - I've always felt I had a point to prove to the world. I think you may be one of us yet. Whenever you're ready...welcome.
PR
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