Tazman53

Ted for years I beleived I had no problem, people would say I did, but I honestly felt I did not, I only had one DUI in 40 years of drinking and that was at about the midway point in my drinking career, I was never locked up for drinking, I never got into fights while drinking, I never lost a job due to drinking so obviously even though I drank at a minimum a 12 pack of beer every day I was not an alcoholic.

In my mind alcoholics were homeless bums that lived under bridges or got thrown into jail all the time.

Now I did the last 10 years of my drinking realize I drank to much and would try to quit or cut back.

There is one dream that I had for the last 10 years I drank, that dream was to be able to drink like a normal person, my disease would not let me do this.

The vast majority of non-alcoholics and some alcoholics feel that alcoholism is a choice and not a disease...... oh yea I beleive that I made the choice that every time I had a single drink I immediately wanted more, I made the choice to physically alter my liver to process alcohol differently then normal people.

I made the choice to hate myself, I made the choice to be miserable.

I do not use what I and the main stream scientific and medical community know is a disease as an excuse for any of my actions in my life and never will, I am responsible for every thing I ever did drunk or sober, being drunk is not an excuse for anything.

Is dishonesty a choice for an alcoholic? Yes and no, I was honest as the day is long about everything except when it came to my drinking or something that may effect my drinking, then I would lie, I did not feel good about it, but alcohol was the one thing I would lie about.

I was also dishonest with myself for many years as already stated about me having a problem.

Did I choose to become a liar even though I hate liars? What would it take for some one who hated liars to become a liar about one certain thing even though they hated liars? Why would some one choose to hate them selfs because they are a liar?

Why would any one choose to hate them selfs?

tedseeker

I never want to give the impression that I think quitting is easy. I know it is not and therefore the decision isn't easy at all. But in the end, that is what it comes down to: making a decision.


Not so sure it disappears entirely, but it doesn't matter. Even if you are drinking while walking into a detox center you still are demonstrating that you have the power to get help to not drink ever again.


I know. 20% of people who detox without medication get DTs, and 5% of them die. That's 1%. Fear of pain is a big motivator to not stop drinking. My brother has stopped 3 times in the last 5 years. Once was without medication. He did not have severe problem on any of the occasions. Yet, he drinks 12 beers a day, from the moment he wakes up to the moment he goes to sleep. Fear of withdrawal doesn't appear to be the reason he won't stop drinking. He tells me he was bored when he stopped and more calm when he drank. I know he has obsession at times with it--maybe extreme. He never talks about that. He has many good memories of things that happened while drinking. How does he come to believe in a better alternative WITHOUT hitting bottom? sorry...got off track some..


I dont' know what I'd do, but I'd probably seek medical help. Why doesn't the alcoholic do the same? Is it really the fear of immediate detox discomfort--which from what I've seen with my brother and others didn't seem so bad when used in a medical setting, or something else? Maybe the fear of facing psychological pain is the greater fear???


Please don't be insulted. IF that is what it was for you, thank God you are ok now. My brother seems to have crossed the line because he's been physically dependant now for at least 10 years and he drinks in the morning to relieve the edge, but it doesn't seem like he is at the point you are talking about. I can only hope that he has a hope of 'hitting the bottom' or 'seeing the light' before it gets to the place you reached. I see no reason why it can't be stopped earlier IF the right conditions are in place. I want to help put those conditions in place, but am just not sure how--especially since he seems to not want to talk about drinking. Why, oh why, doesn't someone who knows he is in trouble ---and my brother recently said quite frankly that he is an addict---why doesn't he get help, especially when his prior experiences with rehab weren't really that bad? How can 'extreme boredom' be worse than the ugly future he surely knows is ahead? Or, is he in a fantasy world where he really doesn't think things could get any worse because he can 'manage' his consumption and still get through each day, and hasn't killed anyone yet and isn't in jail yet, etc.....???

ted

tedseeker

I"m not sure that meets the criteria of a physical disease. It may, but I'm not so sure.


I'm not sure that's why moderation doesn't work so well either. I agree that it is fueling the condition, but think that is more of a mental/spiritual thing. To me the most reasonable/sane attitude for someone who nearly lost his/her life to alcohol and is now healthy and in recovery would be a total lack of desire--even a revulsion of the thought of drinking a single drop. IF someone with that kind of extreme past experience wants to drink in moderation I suspect the problem isn't a physical one, but is because they still have some unhealthy thinking and philosophies.

thanks,
ted

catch-22

Maybe... but just because we inflict it on ourself, doesn't mean it's not an illness.

Doesn't work because, althought the brain wants to recover, it's physically addicted to alcohol. Only once you've stopped drinking and your body has recovered to a certain extent, we might feel repulsion (I personally do). And don't forget that our thinking gets distorted through alcohol. Our decision to drink in the first place might be a conscious one, but once we are addicted it's a on-going battle. I believe we need to reach the point of desperation (the so called rock bottom) in order to be able to stop. Personally, I wanted to kill myself. The survival instinct takes over.

tedseeker

Thats a fair answer, Tazman. Until things you saw as problems occured because of your drinking, there was nothing to challenge your preconceptions. So, that to me wasn't lying to yourself.


Maybe I'm not being very clear. I don't think we choose something we don't want--like the negative effects of drinking. I do think we choose what we do want--the drink, for the positive effects or relief of pain or discomfort of some kind. As such, we have the choice also to choose against what we want in the short term for many reasons. We can choose in the short term as my brother does to stop for half a day in order to present himself a certain way, or we can choose to quit entirely to please a judge, or we can choose to quit for good to save our lives.



This is what I was trying to understand, Tazman. Do alcoholics in denial DEEP DOWN know they are lying and making excuses? It sounds to me like you did at that point.


Well, you were wrong, but it sounds like you really didn't know it, so I wouldn't call that self-deception because your definition of a problem was different than the people who said you had a problem: No fights, no lost jobs,--they didn't give any criteria other than probably the quantity you drank--which as far as you could tell you were handling just fine, and maybe actually were.


I think so.

Great committment to something because either it produced a lot of pleasure or relief from pain--including the pain of withdrawal.


I don't think you chose to hate yourself. Rather, you chose to lie because you preferred the experience of alcohol to sobriety, and the end result was that you hated yourself. You chose between two conflicting values--your self-respect and the effects of alcohol. People do that all the time on occasion. You did it chronically, but at some point you chose your self-respect again.

Please don't misunderstand me. I do think choice remains, but I don't think people know enough sometimes to make the best choice. We don't get a blueprint for life. I'm making bad choices in my life every day, I suspect. All we can do is live and learn, and maybe help others in the process.

ted

Tazman53

Ted I wish there was some magical thing I could say or do to where you could understand, but I have yet to meet a single alcoholic who knew a single non-alcoholic who understood how we think entirely, whether we are actively in our disease or have been sober for 10 years.

I can tell you this, if you want to help your brother the best thing you can do for him is nothing, if he needs to get bailed out of jail, leave him. If he needs money for any reason do not give/loan it to him. If he needs food do not give him any. If he needs anything do not give it to him unless it is a ride to a rehab.

If he has been drinking refuse to talk to him until he is sober.

I kept drinking right up until the point I knew I was going to have to face every facet of life alone, no one helping me do anything! That is when I finally sat down and fast forwarded my future, what I saw was really quick all utilities being cut off because I didn't pay bills, all I did was have my paycheck electronically deposited, my wife took care of all that.

I saw myself passing out on the sofa because my wife was not getting me up to go to bed to where my alarm clock would wake me up to go to work, resulting in me be late to work all the time and me getting fired. From there it would be no time before I owned nothing and had no where to live, all I was left with would be drinking until I died!

tedseeker

Physical, for sure. Terms like illness and disease take out the mental or choice aspect in my mind.


I've read both from a person here and about a research review that the people that recover most successfully are the ones that percieved that they had something to lose by continuing to drink. In your case it was your life, but many decide to quit when some other VALUE is threatened--a relationship, their health, etc.. It doesn't always have to get that far. It comes down to how important the value that is threatened really is in relationship to how important the alcohol is, I think. I don't doubt that the physical addiction affects the interpretation of how important it is.

I gotta go for a while. Thanks,

ted

tedseeker

Maybe I'll be the first!

I agree with all of this.

I don't agree with this exactly. If he is drunk I don't talk to him. If he is not-so-drunk I try to be his friend, and impart only positive values.



Foresight. I wish we all (including me) had more of it. Really gotta go now. Thanks very much,

ted

Tazman53

Ted I see so much of it now in hind sight which as the old saying goes is 20-20, I understand it because I lived through it as other alcoholics have.

What I suggested for your brother is exactly what I am doing for my son, he is just beginning to have problems, nothing major, but he is much further in his disease then I was at his age.

He called me Saturday night drunk and for the first time acknowledged to me he is an alcoholic, I told him we would talk when he was sober and asked to speak to his wife.

Well I spoke to him yesterday when he was sober and just like his dad he would handle it on his own, we talked for quite a while, he watched me go down and he watched me get sober. He told me I can handle this on my own, he did not need any help!!! Oh well.... he has a long way to go to that bottom, hopefully watching his dad go down his bottom will not be as low as mine was.

Do you feel schizophrenia is a disease or a choice?

Zencat

Hi Ted,

Hopefully these resources will help with some understanding how the “Disease” concept is used in regards to alcoholism. I believe that alcoholism is a brain disease due to the physiological changes that occur in the brain. As neuro-pathways adapt to seeking behaviors that drive addiction, thought process are altered. Some researchers believe that the higher cognitive functions that produce rational judgment are bypassed. Thusly behavior go unchecked and the alcoholic is driven by compelling seeking behaviors like those used in flight or fight behavior when there is no time to sit and ponder the circumstances when safety and survival is to be sought at all cost.

“There’s no way that you can stand and look at an abuser and a dependent person and see any difference,” Erickson says. “They look the same. But one has the ability to stop on his own and one doesn’t. The latter will drink until he dies if he’s not intervened upon.”


“Others experience what’s called “neuroadaptation,” in which the brain adapts to the presence of the drug to the point where there is no turning back.”

“Where those lines cross in the middle of your brain is where this disease occurs.”
http://www.utexas.edu/features/2006/alcohol/index.html


“This study indicates the presence of a syndrome of an intermediate stage of alcoholic brain disease, midway between the acute and the chronic stages. In the intermediate stage the EEG changes, the clinical findings and the psychological test data lead to the diagnosis of incipient brain damage; the presence of cerebral atrophy can be confirmed by pneumogram.”
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/...ract/116/8/705


The terms disease, disorder, medical condition are often used interchangeably. There is no agreed-upon universal distinction between these terms, though some people do make distinctions in particular contexts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diseases

The disease model of addiction describes addictions as a lifelong disease involving biologic and environmental sources of origin. The traditional medical model of disease requires only that an abnormal condition be present that causes discomfort, dysfunction, or distress to the individual afflicted. The medical model also takes into consideration that such disease may be the result of biologic, psychologic, or sociologic entities despite the lack of contemporary knowledge regarding the precise mechanism of any of those entities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_model_of_addiction

Music

Geez, this thread took off like a shot. I haven't a clue as to what kind of "abnormal psychological reaction" to anything I could have had at age 18 but I do know one thing. When I went out one night and got drunk at age 18, I drank that first beer, and it seemed to be the answer to the question. I didn't then, and still don't 'know' what that question is/was, but I drank a lot that first time, and drank the same way time after time following for the next 15 years or so, always with the desire to feel just like I did after that first beer. Chasing after that feeling liked to kill me and destroy my family. It doesn't have to be any more simple than that. The Big Book says that at some point, the alcoholic loses the ability to stop after taking that first drink. That's me, right from that first beer. If I try making it any more complicated than that, I'm probably looking for a way to disqualify myself as being alcoholic which will lead eventually, back to that chase to recapture that feeling. I'm not going there.

Gmoney

Physical disease? Behavioral disease? Genetic predisposed disease? Chicken or egg? Nature or nurture? Geez...

I agree with Music and all the others that really don't give a rats behind about the "how" of alcoholism/addiction. Those things can be debated till the cows come home and they ultimately do not change the reality that a person has a problem with drinking. I studied various writings on alcoholism and addiction prior to recovery only to confuse myself and challenge counselors. Looking back, I now believe I did it only to disqualify myself from being an alcoholic-addict. I'd agree with ANY position that would allow me to see myself as "better than" or superior to my preconceived understanding of what an alcoholic or addict was/is. I was in denial and couldn't comprehend powerlessness. Today I know that there are many, many things that require no explaining or research - they are what they are. Today I know that powerlessness doesn't mean incapability or helplessness. Powerlessness means I have limitations, boundaries and ultimately LESS POWER than I want to believe I have.

The person who smokes cigarettes and develops lung cancer can be viewed as someone suffering from a "behavioral disease", according to Ted. Yet, the person who never smoked and gets lung cancer has the same disease (cancer). Is the person who never smoked any less sick, suffering or diseased? Did the person who never smoked have a choice? And what about all those that smoke all their lives and never get cancer? The term "behavioral disease" is only satisfactory to those who are looking for loopholes or ways to qualify their views.

I doubt seriously if your stats are accurate. Do they take into account all those who enter a detox facility? What about the HIPAA laws? Patients who do not want their medical info revealed are probably not included, so that would throw those numbers totally out of whack. I'm also willing to bet the farm that there's plenty your brother doesn't reveal to you and he only tells you what he wants you to know. To answer your question is to repeat what I've previously posted - "bottom" differs from person to person just as the degree of sickness differs from person to person. You'll know when he knows and all the research in the world won't change that.

Music

I agree that fear of pain is a motivator to not stop drinking. However, the folks I've seen who are successful in there sobriety, are people who were more afraid of the pain of continuing to drink, than they were of the pain of stopping. So, for someone whose afraid to stop because it's going to hurt, I say, "KEEP RIGHT ON DRINKING MY FRIEND." Sooner of later, something's gotta give.

tedseeker

I hope your son finds his way soon Tazman.

I don't know enough about it though there are some similarities to the alcoholic mindset in terms of distorted beliefs and thinking, but it is different because there is no substance involved which is chosen repeatedly that contributes to the symptoms.

ted

tedseeker

Thank you zencat for the information. My beef is that disease used to mean one thing--physical processes which are beyond personal control and are destructive, and if it disappears one is lucky, cured, and no longer has the disease. With alcohol the definition is all over the map--people are born with the disease, or they contract the disease when they become physically dependant, or they still have the disease even after they have been sober for 10 years. It is poorly defined and is hijacking a term that traditionally had a strong, more precise and narrow definition. To use such a term for something that people can't even clearly define is confusing and leads to all kinds of misunderstandings about the nature of alcoholism. The term should be dropped and replaced with a different term.

And you and the researchers may indeed be right. But as long as people just BELIEVE it is something the term shouldn't be used because it may be wrong, in addition to being misleading.


This is an opinion. And it is wrong, unless you want to say that 'life' intervenes on dependant people who decide to quit. We have a person on this forum who claims to have stopped on his own. Quotes like the above IMO are therefore misleading.


Certainly bodily damage is a major concern. Doesn't qualify to be called a disease though. If I break my arm I don't have an arm disease.


I think if you polled people you would find that people would much more often call uncurable physical conditions a disease instead of a disorder. I much prefer disorder because it is vague enough to be correct, without the preconcieved notions of what a disorder is. Medical condition is no more accurate than psychological condition.



I don't think the bolded part is accurate because under that definition a headache or itch is a disease. Maybe times are changing but it's a sloppy way to go about defining something. How about calling it an "addiction disorder"? Why do we have to use the term disease? Now gambling and stalking are diseases in some circles. Soon all behavior that causes anyone discomfort will be labeled a disease and the term will be meaningless.

ted

tedseeker

Wow Music, you absolutely had an abnormal reaction to your first drink, whether it was physical or psychological or some of both. I'm glad you found your way through it though. Take care,

ted

tedseeker

I agree, but they can have profound effects on finding the most effective ways to help prevent people from becoming addicts in the first place and to help people in recovery. And, I believe, maybe in helping people decide to quit through more effective interventions and hope for effective recovery. How it works is extremely important from that aspect.

Fortunately many have come to admit they have a problem and many have found useful solutions (see the thread on cravings being gone for good), including AA. I believe solving the mysteries of how can lead to many more lives being saved and made whole.



I didn't realize that is how you view powerlessness. I thought it meant without any power at all. I totally agree that it is VERY useful to understand that we have less power over something that we would like to believe. The serenity prayer addresses that nicely. I'm glad you have found the above interpretation to be helpful.



It's a little different. Why aren't people born with the disease of smokingism? People smoke, they get hooked, they get physically dependant, they violate their own moral codes sometimes, and they get cravings and obsessions. Some smoke even after being told they will die if they continue. Some smoke even while they have emphasema (sp?). Yet when they stop we don't say they still have a disease called smokingism. Why not?

As for lung cancer, where is the comparable cancer from drinking? It isn't something we call alcoholism because that isn't comparable. Lung cancer is physical and usually doesn't clear up if one stops smoking unless treated, I believe. The physical and mental states of alcoholics clear up (at least mostly I believe) when they stop, if they don't have some specific disease as a result of drinking.



I admit they could be wrong. They were pre-HIPAA and it's been a while since I read it.

I don't mean to downplay the seriousness though. It is EXTREMELY critical for some people. I'm sorry I sound argumentative. I don't mean anything personal against you or anyone here. I really believe the AA motto that the truth sets us free, and I believe the truth sometimes can be imparted to addicts in a way that helps speed up their point of decision. Some are too wrapped up, too proud, too whatever to listen, but I don't want to assume my brother is that way if in fact he isn't. At the same time, I don't want to pester him to the point that he digs in to become MORE resistant. My approach is to primarily impart positive values while being a friend, and occasionally checking to see if he is willing to share some thoughts about his drinking, and to not enable him to do something he should be able to do for himself.

thanks for your perspective. I appreciate where you are coming from.

ted

BP44

Ted, in my experience, I have found that most if not all alcoholics had an abnormal experience with the very first drink. Myself included. My very first drink was utter nirvana, so obviously the second was gonna be even better. Music's experience is a common occurence. I know it is baffling to the non alcoholic and the alcoholic as well. Here's the difference. When someone tells you that, the response is, " wow, you really had an abnormal reaction to the first drink" When I hear that same description of the first drink I say, " yep, I know what you mean brother, it was the answer to the still unknown question"

Zencat

I agree, the use of the term “disease” needs to be clarified to a more definitive usage


How can a behavior be explained when the terms used to describe it cause as much or more confusion than the behavior it self? After all, what most people want is some kind of explanation that leads to a resolution of the problem and not get bogged down in terminology. Rather than percise way to trace the cause of the problem, I believe the disease concept applied to alcoholism is partly an attempt to illicit compassion for the alcoholic . At some point the person using alcohol, for whatever reason, crosses that invisible line into disaster. At that point, no moral or ethical judgment of behavior serves any useful purpose other than to judge the alcohol dependent person punitively and shame them further down into the abyss of despair.

SaTiT

how can you expect someone to act or behave right..if they're wacked out
of thier mind ?

Trying to explain alcoholism is like trying to weight my thoughts..
or trying to explain god...everybody has their perceptions of what
god is and is not. God dosn't belong in a box nor dose alcoholism.

I can read millions of words until i trun blue as in ten millions forms of fears
In other words..i can continue to focus on the problems and the millions
of forms it'll occurs or i can focus on the salutions..

how in the world or insane..of me to get hang up on a word..."dis-ease"
or "god" or g-d or HP.. that's totally stuff the keeps my brain intertain
and out of control and running me..or delusional. mind masterbation stuff.
it dosn't solve anything other than stimulation of my mind.
knowlege is good but not enough. Somewhere along the line I must put
that knowlege in applications or actions.

There's intelligents and then there's genius

Somewhere alone the line..I have to put the theory to a test flight.
Waitng for a scientist or an aurther to put a correct term to do something
about my life..is just that another defect of charecter or behaviors..
waiting...waiting for what ??? to do the right thing or fit in or be in style ?
In other words..just another form of fear..it is cunning, it is baffleing, it is that
powerful. I can't think my way into recovery...

I'll either do it or i won't....it's that simple.