tedseeker

These are my thoughts about excerpts from the book, Under the Influence:

I don't question that some people react more strongly --either unfavorably or favorably--to alcohol, than others, which Under the Influence (UTI) documents so well. I question what the book claims that that implies: That the abnormal physical reaction CAUSES the alcoholic's increasing psychological and emotional problems.

I think all one can really say is that when the abnormal physical reaction results in greater pleasure than the avg person, that it increases the likelihood that a person will drink amounts that eventually lead to addiction. The book sounds as though this reaction makes eventual addiction a certainty. It seems to go too far in such a position.

A person has control over their behavior. If an alcoholic were told early on that they would become addicted if they continue to drink, AND IF the alcoholic believed them, I believe many would decide to NOT drink. If I'm right, self-preservation and positive values CAN influence whether a person chooses to drink.

Let's be clear:

Initially: People decide to drink for many reasons. Sometimes it is because they have problems they wish to escape. Sometimes it is simply because it is fun and makes them feel good or better. A positive abnormal physical reaction can add to the enjoyment of the experience, but it doesn't make them decide to drink. They make that choice.

Habitual drinking prior to severe physical dependancy: People drink habitually for the same reasons as they initially drink, but as life conditions change, the specific reasons can change. Abnormal physical reactions can continue to add to the enjoyment of the experience, but it doesn't make them decide to continue to drink when they clearly have knowledge that they are becoming habitual drinkers, as they drink greater quantities and more frequently. They make that choice.

Physical dependancy: People choose to drink in this stage IMO in order to continue to experience the positive benefits, and avoid unpleasant conditions, which now include uncomfortable physical withdrawal and associated negative social consequences. They still have a choice to quit, though the immediacy of relief from drinking as well as the years of habitual behavior make the choice much more difficult. Nevertheless if personal choice were not an issue in this stage of addiction, there would be no such thing as 'hitting bottom', because the bottom would never be reached.


While UTI helps explain why people become addicted without expecting that to happen, and why the experience usually goes from pleasant to unpleasant as the effects take their toil on the body over the years, UTI appears to minimize the influence of personal choice on behavior of alcoholics at every stage of the process.

The information in UTI can be invaluable for educating people so that they know what to look out for in order to avoid becoming addicted. It can also be comforting to alcoholics who were unable to see the very negative future during those early stages of enjoyment.

However, we must also appreciate that the factors which lead everyone to making positive choices even among negative life conditions are always helpful both before, during, and after addiction, and must be fostered no matter what our physical predispositions might be.


It is not clear to me that UTI has shown that a person without abnormal physical reactions cannot become alcoholic. It seems to me that someone who doesn't react differently than avg can still become alcoholic as long as they drink too much, and drinking too much can occur given a certain combination of psychological, cultural, and social factors. I think I recall reading that more Japanese are becoming alcoholics than in the past, for example, due to cultural changes. Let's not forget that people without abnormal physical reactions still DO enjoy alcohol! Cannot some of them prefer to drink a lot? Of course they can.


I don't know this study, but if it was done by comparing non-alcoholics to alcoholics, it is meaningless, because the very physical makeup of the alcoholic, ie the liver enzymes, etc. could have changed as a result of excessive drinking. From the classic book Heavy Drinking, written in 1988:


UTI:
80% of sons of alcoholics don't become alcoholics, so while heredity and metabolism may play an important role clearly other factors are involved..


NO ONE is able to control how alcohol reacts in one's body. The reaction may be quite pleasurable. It is pleasure or relief from pain which drives one to continue to drink, IMO, regardless of whether one person is more 'reactive' than another. If ANYONE drinks enough--more likely for some people who can tolerate more and who enjoy it more--they risk becoming physically dependant, which greatly increases the obsession to drink, since the absence of alcohol is uncomfortable--cravings are inevitable.

Once the body is rid of alcohol and as the mind becomes more physically restored to normalicy--a process which can take as long as 6 months--then the exercise of willpower becomes increasingly less difficult. Learning the coping strategies which keep others--even those prone to alcoholism--from choosing to drinking habitually in the first place and developing other techniques others find to bring either calmness or excitement to their lives will go a long ways toward erasing the scary threat of alcohol in their lives. As other, positive values and habits replace the negative habit of using the desire and allure of alcohol will lesson over time, hopefully to the point many have reached to where it is not tempting in the least.


What do you think about this? I 'd like to hear any thoughts you have on this. These are my thoughts based on reading and observation, including observations of my brother, who is an alcoholic. I've had a long term quasi-addiction in the past, but not to alcohol.

ted

Free Roll

People do make the choice to drink and continue drinking. But the way I see it, it's a choice made without having all the facts. I lived in a world of illusion before I started drinking at age 13.

CarolD

Thank you for your opinion and conclusions. Ted

Me?
I never believe 100% of anything!


If you read the complete book
some of this might be clarified.
Amazon carries it and also
"Beyond The Influence"

GlassPrisoner

tedseeker,

Withdraw from being physically dependant and craving are two seperate issues. The third is the obsession.

Craving sets in once an alcoholic ingests alcohol.

If an alcoholic can make it through the withdraw (which I've done too many times), then he has to worry about the obsession. Because of the obsession, it is almost impossible for the alcoholic not to eventually pick up again. (UTI doesn't really address this. Only what happens once you begin to drink.)

There is no desire or allure for me. Personally, I hate the stuff now. But without help, something makes me pick up again.

Then the craving sets in ,and the cycle repeats ad infinitum.

tedseeker

I understand.

It seems to me that obsession only occurs because of craving. Obsession is craving gone wild, is it not?


Yes.


I would LOVE to know how you might describe that state of picking up to ingest something you hate. What does that 'something' you mention feel like? What are your short term expectations for picking it up? What triggers it, if anything? How have you successfully reduced or eliminated it without giving in? How long does the 'something' last normally? IF this is difficult to think about without triggering the cravings, please don't attempt it, or please have help nearby.


What do you think of this?:
I've never been there, but it seems to me that cravings are thoughts which associate alcohol use with pleasure or relief from discomfort. Is it not possible that the 'experience' moreso than the drug itself has an allure? The pleasant memories associated with using? If that is the case, then the cure for cravings is rooted in blocking or changing the thoughts that create cravings. This is not easy because our memories are telling us 'STEP RIGHT UP--PLEASURE OR RELIEF IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER'. That's why triggers can come from ANYTHING--environmental, daydreaming, nightdreaming, or even brain states that are similar to those that existed during prior cravings--ie, low dopamine levels, perhaps.

In Heavy Drinking, the author points to studies that show that craving is variable, and does NOT depend on alcohol as much as some think. Those studies show that the idea of craving to the point of being irresistable is a myth, as given enough incentives the alcoholics will not give into their cravings. They also show that cravings are strongly affected by the social and psychological setting, as those who consumed a faked drink in a conducive setting reported a high degree of craving.

So, it seems to me that cravings and obsession is more a product of the mind than the substance. That doesn't mean it is easy to overcome, but it does mean that the solution is to be found in learning how to change the mind/brain chemistry through either external or internal means to reduce or eliminate the cravings altogether. Some meditate, others exercise, others eat certain ways and get plenty of rest. While others practice avoiding certain thoughts and behaviors and adopting others. I would think that combining these approaches would be even better. Others still may find non-addictive drugs useful at times if these other approaches simply aren't enough. I'm all for anything that works as long as they don't lead to another unhealthy addiciton.

Does this sound plausible to you?

ted

tedseeker

That's how I see it too Free Roll. Although I would include a LOT under the heading of "all the facts", in addition to just how bad it can be for someone. Such as the facts about ones own abilities, how good certain people CAN be, and how good life can be without it if certain steps are taken.

thanks,

ted

GlassPrisoner

Vague, nebulous. It can't be explained.

That's the baffling part. Sometimes, nothing at all triggers it. There is no why. You just find yourself with a drink in your hand. Or at the liquor store. You kind of go into auto pilot.

I'm sure from the outside it sounds like a cop out. but ask any alcoholic, and they'll
most likely confirm what I wrote.

You're observation that the obsession starts in the mind is spot on. The craving, to explain further, is only triggered after I drink.

In a nutshell and in general , alcoholics are self centered, egotistical, self-reliant, sensitive, childish and grandiose. We also have impossible expectations of ourselves and others. When things don't work out the way we think they should, we drink.

I, like many others, have found help through AA. They have taught me to think of others, to help others, to be of service, and to change my entire way of thinking and acting. I am not a victim. Everything that has happened to me has arisen out of my own actions. We relieve the guilt and resentment through confession and repentance (making good). I am not the master of my destiny, and I look to God to put before me what has to be done. I do the footwork, He decides the outcome. A lot of people have a problem with that part of the program, but it works.

tedseeker

I DO believe that you don't know what triggers the 'something' sometimes, GlassPrisoner. However, I don't believe things happen without a reason. It may be physical. You may naturally have lower levels of certain brain chemicals during those times of autopilot. Whatever it is, I'm glad you have found approaches that have been helpful.


I think you just described my brother to a T. I still love him like crazy though. He has so much more talent than I do in certain ways...

While I question some ideas AA promotes--especially the disease concept and that of being powerless, in the end it is what works that matters, and the AA philosphy works for many people. I'm glad you have found it to be helpful.

thanks for your thoughts,

ted

miss communicat

ted,

i appreciate this thread. i have been thinking about the question of physiology as a factor in behaviour for a long time, and of how we create our physioogy by the repeated choices of what we ingest. so, i am not seeing the commonly described disease model of alcoholism perhaps the same way others might, but....

nonetheless, i do accept that i cannot drink alcohol and that the choice to remain sober produces improvements in my behaviour.

its pretty late, my thinkng is fading, but i did want to acknowledge the interesting topic you chose to share here. thank you.

catch-22

given the physiological premise, in theory you should never be able to stop (and this is true for many late stage alcoholics). But remember that, although the brain gets physically addicted to alcohol, it's still able to process thoughts and emotions and we can react on those. It's a hard battle, which can only be won by stopping drinking and reverting the brain functions to its original state. Once you stopped drinking, you will be able to rationalise more and hopefully resist the cravings. Or at least this is how I see it. Personally I started drinking socially when I was happy with my life. Later, when I slowly got addicted, if problems happened, I wasn't able to deal with them because I was drinking. I couldn't solved the problems, so I drank even more and got more and more depressed. When I started having suicidal thoughts, I decided that, maybe, it was time to give up the booze...

Catch

barb dwyer

Ted -
In my own personal experience with a craving ...
it's not 'thinking' as you understand it at all.
It's a BODY memory.
The BODY is doing the thinking at that point.
For me, the BODY is doing the 'pulling' for a drink.
If I hadn't stayed on top of it - I'd have had a drink in my hand and had it gone before I knew what I was doing.

The worst one happened St Patricks day here. I can describe that one best because I finally UNDERSTOOD it ... and once I understood ... I haven't had another craving since.
I posted that I felt like a retired racehorse hearing the bugle 'call to post' ... there was a 'pulling' feeling in my stomach, I was jittery, irritable as all get out, nervous ... the BRAIN was saying, 'you know what will stop this just one shot just one just one' ...
Meanwhile, my BODY was exhibiting every symptom that would have, when I still was using ... would have ... made me reach for something without even thinking about it. It's a PHYSICAL 'the world is going to end' feeling, and no less than that. 'This plane is gonna crash - that truck's gonna hit us - we're all going to die- this mall is gonna collapse' feeling ... but in your body. Once a lifeguard I can tell you - when you're 'going down' ... you're going to claw at anything to NOT drown. They teach you that in the Red Cross classes.
It's a very similar feeling. Very similar.

Much like 'fight or flight' panic, when you try to 'control' it.
But on St. Paddy's - I didn't 'fight' it. I let it rock and roll. I went ahead and shook, kvetched, snapped at coworkers ... whatever ... but I came to SR and stayed here, too the whole shift.

because of my connection with my HP, this website, and the Program ... I had a rough night, no doubt about it ... but I didn't drink.

And that was at
*pauses to think*
7 months sober.

BP44

" I've never been there" says it all. In my experience, once I became alcoholic, the power of choice was gone. At this stage, to drink is to die, and to not drink is to die. That is physical dependence in all it's glory. I agree that there are many potential alcoholics and problem drinkers who still have the power of choice. The BB spells this out. But once someone becomes alcoholic, the power of choice is gone. If you do not understand this, you are either not alcoholic, or in severe denial.

Tazman53

Ted you have not mentioned whether or not you are an alcoholic, I am.

I know the difference between mental obsession and physical craving.

I obsessed all day long at work about that first drink while I was at work, about 1/2 hour before I would get off work that was all that was on my mind. Check out the meaning of obsession.

The physical craving kicked in once I had that first drink..... actually it kicked in while I was drinking that first one, I wanted another even before I had finished the first one.
I agree with scientist, NIH & NIAA that it is a disease, but that is my opinion Ted, you have yours, but the most important thing in the long run is what you said above, the solution found so far by every program is not meds, but programs that help an alcoholic change them selfs, give support, and help teach methods of living happily and normaly.

tedseeker

This makes sense to me. I do wonder about those that you mention that don't stop. Is it because they can't or they believe (and with good reason--it is extremely hard at that point) they can't? We can never really know, I think, but it seems to me that they can still say "I can't do it, but someone else out there can help me do it--even force me to do it." Maybe not though. Maybe thoughts like that are beyond their reach. It is tragic either way. Thanks.

ted

tedseeker

I think I see what you are saying. I should have been clearer that the 'craving' is not necessarily a real active thought--it can be very much under the surface, though it is still processed in the brain. Perhaps an itch from a healing wound is a somewhat related analogy--the itch is in the body, but it is the brain that tells us we itch. We sometimes consciously think about how we itch--other times we may be doing something else when suddenly we realize we've been scratching for the last 10 minutes!.


God bless you Barb! That is very powerful. Your 'control' was in not letting "it" control your reaction to 'it'. And, I see what you mean better than before that the cravings can be way beyond simple thoughts. Thank you for helping me see that better. All the best in your recovery

ted

tedseeker

Thank you BP44. I'm here because my brother is an alcoholic--I only drink maybe 1x a month and it is no big deal to me. I'm here to learn from you because no one knows how it feels better than you. I can read all of the books in the world about how it feels, and still not get it. I won't get it from listening to you either, but I'll come closer.

You aren't really saying that to not drink is to die, are you? Aren't you saying that that is the perception the alcoholic has at the late stages?

What I don't understand is if the power of choice is gone, how you and others have managed to quit? It seems to me that you had to have hit bottom and then made that difficult choice to get help.

thanks,

ted

tedseeker

I'm not, but I want to better understand those of you who are.

I'm not sure I see the difference. To me craving is the desire to drink, so while I agree that you obsessed about it, you also were craving it. The craving during that first drink was an intensification of the desire. Forgive the weak comparison, but I've craved donuts for a few hours or more--the more I thought about them the more convinced I was that I'd buy them. After that first bite, it tasted and felt so good going down into my stomach that I immediately desired for that feeling to continue. From that perspective the mental and physical desire/craving are IMO pretty much the same thing.

ted

catch-22

yes, it's a difficult one. I suppose some people are mentally stronger than others and are able to get up and fight the disease. Some do it on their own, others seek help, but I believe it's all matter of timing. If you leave it too long, it will get more and more difficult until other organs get irreversibly diseased and the battle is lost. It could be that at this stage other factors come also into play, i.e. education, personal financial resources, personal circumstances, faith, etc. Difficult to say, but the most important thing is to recognise that you have a disease, to understand it, and to tackle it. Once you've done that, there is only one solution: to get sober or to die.

Tazman53

I had to put myself into detox just to get sober enough, long enough to give me a chance of thinking clearly enough to stay sober.

Ted my wife is not an alcoholic, she does not understand it either, do not feel like the lone ranger. My wife and I go to one open AA speakers meeting a week together. This may be a great way for you to see that there is hope for your brother, but more then that, a speakers meeting will give you a better grasp of what it takes for an alcoholic of my kind to hit thier bottom and how they got sober. Most of us had to at a minimum go through detox, a lot of those who went through detox also follow that up with rehab.

Ted I am sure you have heard of our insanity, it overcomes many of us in far more ways then just alcohol.

A very hard thing for even me as an alcoholic to grasp was that alcohol is but a symptom of the disease of alcoholism, non-alcohlics really have no idea what we speak od when we say that.

In order for me to stay stopped and to become happy being sober I had to start off by becoming brutally honest with myself first and then with the rest of the world.

In the book Alcoholics Anonymous, chapter 5. first paragraph, second sentence it says:

This above spells out those who may never recover due to not being able to be honest with them selfs.

In the book Alcoholics Anonymous, chapter 5. first paragraph, forth sentence it says:
This above spells out those who may never recover due to not being able to be honest with in their manner of living.

SaTiT

which is my conclusion...the brain gets addicted and damage.
How and why do people catch a buzz ?...killing brain cells as I remember.
And what kind of sane or thought process would occure in a damage brain.
Which dosn't make any sense if a damage brain tries to rationlize a warp percetion.
And what would catch a damage brain attention ??....pain
which feeds into the madness of it all to keep the momentum going..
get numb some more..

mind, body and soul...
first things first, obviousely...don't put anymore pioson into the brain and body.
Common sense would tell anybody that.
What is common sence ?...Some people call it a spiritual awakening.

To not be under the influence of alcohol, drugs, and any substance is a beging.
To not be under the influence of the brain is another story.
The brain gets influence by external source and internal soruce.

Are you in control of your brain or is your brain controling you ?
Are you still under the influence of your brain ?

what is the you or the I ?...the soul perhaps.
What is attitude ? an expression of the soul perhaps.

In theory a soul dosn't exist either..becuase no human had been able to
capture a soul and put in a jar, yet..lol..

But gez wizz..don't you all remember that picture or the negatives of a film
of a leaf that's been cutted. In the negative film the leaf is still in one piece