Questioning "Under the Influence" conclusions
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
I do not believe in the "genetic predisposition" to alcoholism either.
I know countless hours and considerable resourses may have been spent to prove this theory but none of it was conclusive.
I picked up my first drink because of the same reasons that millions of other people did........ curiosity.
As I child I wanted to discover for myself what this "mysterious potion" was that made the adults in my family who normally did not dance suddenly turn into giggling "Fred Astaires and Ginger Rogers"
I tried it again a few years later and continued doing it because of parties and peer pressure........plus by then I really liked it.
By the time I was nineteen I was hooked on alcohol, but not because of any "genetic mutation"
I was hooked on alcohol because of a "Physical Dependence" but I personally believe that what caused this "Physical a dependence" in the first place was a "Spiritual & Emotional retardation" Fear, Anger, Resentment, Lonliness, Boredom, Low Self Esteem,Things that may well have been there from childhood and long before the term "genetically predisposed to alcohol" was coined.
AA worked for me because it helped me to deal with what I feel is the root cause of my alcoholism even though those "Spiritual reasons" led to "Physical Symptoms".
Yes AA supports the "Disease of alcoholism" belief, but it has still been able to effectively treat the condition because the "dis-ease" is often Spiritual in origin.
I know countless hours and considerable resourses may have been spent to prove this theory but none of it was conclusive.
I picked up my first drink because of the same reasons that millions of other people did........ curiosity.
As I child I wanted to discover for myself what this "mysterious potion" was that made the adults in my family who normally did not dance suddenly turn into giggling "Fred Astaires and Ginger Rogers"
I tried it again a few years later and continued doing it because of parties and peer pressure........plus by then I really liked it.
By the time I was nineteen I was hooked on alcohol, but not because of any "genetic mutation"
I was hooked on alcohol because of a "Physical Dependence" but I personally believe that what caused this "Physical a dependence" in the first place was a "Spiritual & Emotional retardation" Fear, Anger, Resentment, Lonliness, Boredom, Low Self Esteem,Things that may well have been there from childhood and long before the term "genetically predisposed to alcohol" was coined.
AA worked for me because it helped me to deal with what I feel is the root cause of my alcoholism even though those "Spiritual reasons" led to "Physical Symptoms".
Yes AA supports the "Disease of alcoholism" belief, but it has still been able to effectively treat the condition because the "dis-ease" is often Spiritual in origin.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 146
Originally Posted by Peter 
I do not believe in the "genetic predisposition" to alcoholism either.
I know countless hours and considerable resourses may have been spent to prove this theory but none of it was conclusive.
I picked up my first drink because of the same reasons that millions of other people did........ curiosity.
As I child I wanted to discover for myself what this "mysterious potion" was that made the adults in my family who normally did not dance suddenly turn into giggling "Fred Astaires and Ginger Rogers"
I tried it again a few years later and continued doing it because of parties and peer pressure........plus by then I really liked it.
By the time I was nineteen I was hooked on alcohol, but not because of any "genetic mutation"
I was hooked on alcohol because of a "Physical Dependence" but I personally believe that what caused this "Physical a dependence" in the first place was a "Spiritual & Emotional retardation" Fear, Anger, Resentment, Lonliness, Boredom, Low Self Esteem,Things that may well have been there from childhood and long before the term "genetically predisposed to alcohol" was coined.
AA worked for me because it helped me to deal with what I feel is the root cause of my alcoholism even though those "Spiritual reasons" led to "Physical Symptoms".
Yes AA supports the "Disease of alcoholism" belief, but it has still been able to effectively treat the condition because the "dis-ease" is often Spiritual in origin.
I know countless hours and considerable resourses may have been spent to prove this theory but none of it was conclusive.
I picked up my first drink because of the same reasons that millions of other people did........ curiosity.
As I child I wanted to discover for myself what this "mysterious potion" was that made the adults in my family who normally did not dance suddenly turn into giggling "Fred Astaires and Ginger Rogers"
I tried it again a few years later and continued doing it because of parties and peer pressure........plus by then I really liked it.
By the time I was nineteen I was hooked on alcohol, but not because of any "genetic mutation"
I was hooked on alcohol because of a "Physical Dependence" but I personally believe that what caused this "Physical a dependence" in the first place was a "Spiritual & Emotional retardation" Fear, Anger, Resentment, Lonliness, Boredom, Low Self Esteem,Things that may well have been there from childhood and long before the term "genetically predisposed to alcohol" was coined.
AA worked for me because it helped me to deal with what I feel is the root cause of my alcoholism even though those "Spiritual reasons" led to "Physical Symptoms".
Yes AA supports the "Disease of alcoholism" belief, but it has still been able to effectively treat the condition because the "dis-ease" is often Spiritual in origin.
dum vita est spes est
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: vita secundum nex
Posts: 287
[QUOTE=Peter;1356614]I was hooked on alcohol because of a "Physical Dependence" but I personally believe that what caused this "Physical a dependence" in the first place was a "Spiritual & Emotional retardation" Fear, Anger, Resentment, Lonliness, Boredom, Low Self Esteem,Things that may well have been there from childhood and long before the term "genetically predisposed to alcohol" was coined.QUOTE]
I need to tatoo this on my forehead. Oustanding Peter!
PR
I need to tatoo this on my forehead. Oustanding Peter!
PR
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cumming, Ga
Posts: 665
Gettin, my post was made to not anyone in particular. As there have been a number of posters who have disputed physical dependence as fact. Choice vs non choice for the alcoholic. Genetic predisposition is another topic I don't believe I addressed in my post. No assumptions made on my part. Did you not say that you didn't believe alcoholism was a physical disease that causes physical dependence? As for genetic predisposition, I don't think all the science is in on that theory. I think it will be explained one day, but unlike physical dependence it is not fact today. I do find it odd that alcoholism tends to run in families. But until they have the genetic mapping out for all to see, I will reserve an opinion.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cumming, Ga
Posts: 665
To go further here's the real question. If it is not a physical disease, then why is there a change at the cellular level throughout the body and that when ever alcohol is consumed a vicious cycle of withdrawl and craving coupled with mental obsession occur. If it were simply a mental state, then there should be no physical issues or signs after alcohol has been withdrawn. The fact is that at the cellular level once we have become alcoholic, cells are altered forever. That's why when someone picks up after 26 years he goes off the deep end and you never see them again.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 146
Originally Posted by BP44
To go further here's the real question. If it is not a physical disease, then why is there a change at the cellular level throughout the body and that when ever alcohol is consumed a vicious cycle of withdrawl and craving coupled with mental obsession occur. If it were simply a mental state, then there should be no physical issues or signs after alcohol has been withdrawn. The fact is that at the cellular level once we have become alcoholic, cells are altered forever. That's why when someone picks up after 26 years he goes off the deep end and you never see them again.
People run the marathon every year and people die as a result. One of the most common causes is people drinking too much water. They drown themselves at a cellular level (check it out if this is news to you). Our cells are easily manipulated by what we do to them - not the other way around.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by BP44
Gettin, my post was made to not anyone in particular. As there have been a number of posters who have disputed physical dependence as fact. Choice vs non choice for the alcoholic. Genetic predisposition is another topic I don't believe I addressed in my post. No assumptions made on my part. Did you not say that you didn't believe alcoholism was a physical disease that causes physical dependence? As for genetic predisposition, I don't think all the science is in on that theory. I think it will be explained one day, but unlike physical dependence it is not fact today. I do find it odd that alcoholism tends to run in families. But until they have the genetic mapping out for all to see, I will reserve an opinion.
Some excellent comments and questions have been posted. What Peter wrote makes a lot of sense to this non-alcoholic.
BP, my brother is physically dependant yet he will modify his drinking to fit a situation. According to Heavy Drinking, the most severe alcoholics will choose to abstain AFTER the first drink if ENOUGH incentives are given. And EVEN if they are in the middle of withdrawal. Both of these lead me to conclude that physical 'dependance' doesn't imply loss of choice. Rather, it makes the choice to STOP much harder because the physical body-brain feels more 'normal' with alcohol than without it.
Physical predisposition also doesn't take away choice. I'm physically predisposed to be shy, but I can choose to talk to people.
I don't like the term disease applied to addiction of any kind even though there are physical consequences including dependance to feel normal because most diseases normally are not like that: Cancer and leukemia just don't seem to be the same. Choice is the major divider. For that reason I prefer to think of alcholism as a behavioral malady or 'condition' with potentially serious physical consequences--including in the brain. The term 'disease' just seems to be too confusing due to the normal way it is understood to this day.
If one insists on calling it a disease I think they would be more accurate to call it a behavioral disease since only behavior can cause the symptoms to appear and only behavior can cause the symptoms to disappear.
ted
Coffee Drinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lobstah Land
Posts: 1,122
This is a great thread. I was leaning hard on the 'genetic predisposition' angle but now I am doing some re-thinking.
In my case it does not really matter to me how I became hooked on booze, the simple fact is that I AM hooked on booze and drinking today would be pretty insane (for me). I am convinced that my little cells, or neurotransmitters, or liver, or all of the above just arn't the same and never will be.
The thing about alcohol addiction is that it causes: sloth, lust, glottony, greed, etc. In varying degrees nin different persons. I, for instance was never a womanizer and was always faithful. Many though, get a bit lusty. Just one example.
Where I am going with this is the whole thing about a spiritual, or moral,if you like, component of the disease.
For me the biggie was sloth. I sat on my butt and did nothing for days and weeks on end.
I know I am disjointed tonight. I just found out that a member of my AA group has picked up after making it more than a year. It's on my mind.
Anyhow, the 12 and 12 and the big book talk about the fact that we tend to let our base instincts run wild. This directly causes guilt for most of us because the 7 big ones are on the top of the list. This is why I believe that the spiritual/moral angle of AA is so important.
Scatterbrained tonight.....
Groucho
In my case it does not really matter to me how I became hooked on booze, the simple fact is that I AM hooked on booze and drinking today would be pretty insane (for me). I am convinced that my little cells, or neurotransmitters, or liver, or all of the above just arn't the same and never will be.
The thing about alcohol addiction is that it causes: sloth, lust, glottony, greed, etc. In varying degrees nin different persons. I, for instance was never a womanizer and was always faithful. Many though, get a bit lusty. Just one example.
Where I am going with this is the whole thing about a spiritual, or moral,if you like, component of the disease.
For me the biggie was sloth. I sat on my butt and did nothing for days and weeks on end.
I know I am disjointed tonight. I just found out that a member of my AA group has picked up after making it more than a year. It's on my mind.
Anyhow, the 12 and 12 and the big book talk about the fact that we tend to let our base instincts run wild. This directly causes guilt for most of us because the 7 big ones are on the top of the list. This is why I believe that the spiritual/moral angle of AA is so important.
Scatterbrained tonight.....
Groucho
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by CarolD
Nor do I...
Factors such as boredom, enjoyment, loneliness, etc.. would seem to be good candidates...Predisposition doesn't write our history for us before we choose to live it!
ted
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
In my case it does not really matter to me how I became hooked on booze, the simple fact is that I AM hooked on booze and drinking today would be pretty insane (for me).
We alkies, in general, and way more than anyone else, tend to analyze and intellectualize everything to death. As a group, we are pretty bright, but in our minds we're all geniuses.
Remember Bills story, he was convinced that self knowledge was the cure. As was I, at one point.
Evolving Addict
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
I don't like the term disease applied to addiction of any kind even though there are physical consequences including dependance to feel normal because most diseases normally are not like that: Cancer and leukemia just don't seem to be the same. Choice is the major divider. For that reason I prefer to think of alcholism as a behavioral malady or 'condition' with potentially serious physical consequences--including in the brain. The term 'disease' just seems to be too confusing due to the normal way it is understood to this day.
http://nickscape.net/recoveryzone/disease.htm
http://www.sosdallas.com/addiction.htm
http://worldwideaddiction.com/articl...aseconcept.htm
According to "most," addiction/alcoholism is understood (and qualifies) as a disease.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
Will Power
Thanks for the links Gary, even though I stated that I don't believe it matters on way or the other. If it is proved that it's not a disease, does that mean we are all cured ?
Anyway, here's an excerpt from the 3rd link I really enjoyed. Well, related to at least.
Anyway, here's an excerpt from the 3rd link I really enjoyed. Well, related to at least.
Want to know what will-power is?
It is waking up in the morning, so nauseous that you race to the bathroom and don't know which end to use first! After that initial wake-up purge, you then make your way shivering and shaking into the kitchen and drink an open, flat, warm beer that has a cigarette butt floating in it. Or because you are shaking so much, you drink that warm white wine that has been sitting out all night, through a straw since you can't hold a glass! You do this, choking back the bile that is rising in your throat, because you know that the only way to begin functioning again on some sort of level is to try and build up the alcohol in your system before you take a seizure
It is waking up in the morning, so nauseous that you race to the bathroom and don't know which end to use first! After that initial wake-up purge, you then make your way shivering and shaking into the kitchen and drink an open, flat, warm beer that has a cigarette butt floating in it. Or because you are shaking so much, you drink that warm white wine that has been sitting out all night, through a straw since you can't hold a glass! You do this, choking back the bile that is rising in your throat, because you know that the only way to begin functioning again on some sort of level is to try and build up the alcohol in your system before you take a seizure
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 14,086
DEFINITIONS
H-30.*** Alcoholism as a Disability
1. The AMA believes it is important for professionals and laymen alike to recognize that alcoholism is in and of itself
a disabling and handicapping condition.
2. The AMA encourages the availability of appropriate services to persons suffering from multiple disabilities or
multiple handicaps, including alcoholism.
3. The AMA endorses the position that printed and audiovisual materials pertaining to the subject of people suffering
from both alcoholism and other disabilities include the terminology "alcoholic person with multiple disabilities or
alcoholic person with multiple handicaps." Hopefully, this language clarification will reinforce the concept that
alcoholism is in and of itself a disabling and handicapping condition. (CSA Rep. H, I-80; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep.
B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
H-95.983 Drug Dependencies as Diseases
The AMA
1. endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a
legitimate part of medical practice, and
2. encourages physicians, other health professionals, medical and other health related organizations, and
government and other policymakers to become more well informed about drug dependencies, and to base their
policies and activities on the recognition that drug dependencies are, in fact, diseases. (Res. 113, A-87)
H-30.997 Dual Disease Classification of Alcoholism
The AMA reaffirms its policy endorsing the dual classification of alcoholism under both the psychiatric and medical
sections of the International Classification of Diseases. (Res. 22, I-79; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep. B, I-89; Reaffirmed:
CLRPD Rep. B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
H-30.958 Ethyl Alcohol and Nicotine as Addictive Drugs
The AMA
1. identifies alcohol and nicotine as drugs of addiction which are gateways to the use of other drugs by young
people;
2. urges all physicians to intervene as early as possible with their patients who use tobacco products and have
problems related to alcohol use, so as to prevent adverse health effects and reduce the probability of long-term
addition;
3. encourages physicians who treat patients with alcohol problems to be alert to the high probability of co-existing
nicotine problems; and
4. reaffirms that individuals who suffer from drug addiction in any of its manifestations are persons with a treatable
disease. (Amended Res. 28,
A-91; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
H-30.*** Alcoholism as a Disability
1. The AMA believes it is important for professionals and laymen alike to recognize that alcoholism is in and of itself
a disabling and handicapping condition.
2. The AMA encourages the availability of appropriate services to persons suffering from multiple disabilities or
multiple handicaps, including alcoholism.
3. The AMA endorses the position that printed and audiovisual materials pertaining to the subject of people suffering
from both alcoholism and other disabilities include the terminology "alcoholic person with multiple disabilities or
alcoholic person with multiple handicaps." Hopefully, this language clarification will reinforce the concept that
alcoholism is in and of itself a disabling and handicapping condition. (CSA Rep. H, I-80; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep.
B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
H-95.983 Drug Dependencies as Diseases
The AMA
1. endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a
legitimate part of medical practice, and
2. encourages physicians, other health professionals, medical and other health related organizations, and
government and other policymakers to become more well informed about drug dependencies, and to base their
policies and activities on the recognition that drug dependencies are, in fact, diseases. (Res. 113, A-87)
H-30.997 Dual Disease Classification of Alcoholism
The AMA reaffirms its policy endorsing the dual classification of alcoholism under both the psychiatric and medical
sections of the International Classification of Diseases. (Res. 22, I-79; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep. B, I-89; Reaffirmed:
CLRPD Rep. B, I-90; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
H-30.958 Ethyl Alcohol and Nicotine as Addictive Drugs
The AMA
1. identifies alcohol and nicotine as drugs of addiction which are gateways to the use of other drugs by young
people;
2. urges all physicians to intervene as early as possible with their patients who use tobacco products and have
problems related to alcohol use, so as to prevent adverse health effects and reduce the probability of long-term
addition;
3. encourages physicians who treat patients with alcohol problems to be alert to the high probability of co-existing
nicotine problems; and
4. reaffirms that individuals who suffer from drug addiction in any of its manifestations are persons with a treatable
disease. (Amended Res. 28,
A-91; Reaffirmed by CSA Rep. 14, A-97)
catch-22
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 135
The genetic predisposition is not the sole cause of alcoholism, or it's not obviously what makes us wanting to drink in the first place. We start drinking for many different reasons, socially or because we have a problem. The genetic predisposition means that we get hooked to alcohol more easily, due to our increased tolerance and chemical imbalance in our brains. Once we get physically addicted, our body and brain change, adapting to alcohol, which is needed to function normally. This in turn makes it more difficult to stop. Curing the psychological distress doesn't make us stop drinking, because of the physiological addiction. This is why psychological therapy on its own inevitably fails.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by GlassPrisoner
....
It is waking up in the morning, so nauseous that you race to the bathroom and don't know which end to use first! After that initial wake-up purge, you then make your way shivering and shaking into the kitchen and drink an open, flat, warm beer that has a cigarette butt floating in it. Or because you are shaking so much, you drink that warm white wine that has been sitting out all night, through a straw since you can't hold a glass! You do this, choking back the bile that is rising in your throat, because you know that the only way to begin functioning again on some sort of level is to try and build up the alcohol in your system before you take a seizure
ted
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by catch-22
The genetic predisposition is not the sole cause of alcoholism, or it's not obviously what makes us wanting to drink in the first place. We start drinking for many different reasons, socially or because we have a problem. The genetic predisposition means that we get hooked to alcohol more easily, due to our increased tolerance and chemical imbalance in our brains. Once we get physically addicted, our body and brain change, adapting to alcohol, which is needed to function normally. This in turn makes it more difficult to stop.
Curing the psychological distress doesn't make us stop drinking, because of the physiological addiction. This is why psychological therapy on its own inevitably fails.
Anyone have experience with this?
ted
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
This idea of powerlessness of choice really bothers me, because it seems to be the incorrect. You made a choice to go to detox, didn't you? I'm not saying you had it all together and were sober enough to understand much of anything, but it would appear to me that you had enough faculties to understand that you had to quit--at least for a while. Are you saying that until you hit a bottom that is bad enough to make that choice you are in some kind of autopilot where you don't really even know what you are doing or how bad it is for you or that there is another option out there that MIGHT be better? I really want to understand the mindset.
Once an alcoholic has crossed that invisible line the power to not drink dissappears, some folks do pull it off, but withdrawals from alcohol can be very severe, they can even lead to death.
Ted perhaps this will help you understand the feeling, eat a very large meal then take some ex-lax and use shear will power not to use the rest room for 2 days.
Could you do it?
It is possible if you are willing to go through the extreme pain involved in doing what your bady is screaming at you to do which is go to the bathroom to make the pain go away.
With an alcholic who has crossed the line not only will there be extreme physical discomfort due to our body withdrawing from alcohol, there will also be extreme mental and physical cravings for the alcohol, at this point just like the person who had the large meal the physical pain alone is going 99 times out of 100 force the person to use the rest room to releif the pain of what their body is demanding that they do. With an alcoholic on top of the pain we have both mental and physical cravings screaming at us at the same time, the relief is as simple as a drink.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: St. Charles, MO
Posts: 95
Gary and zencat,
I understand that alcoholism can be considered a disease. My problem with that is that I think the term is misleading in the sense that in the public eye disease is NOT associated with choice or personal responsibility. "Behavioral disease" would be a much less misleading term.
As Stanton Peele wrote:
Alcoholism, at its core, is not much different from any behavior that gets so out of hand that it is harmful and self-destructive. If you want to call all of these diseases, then at least distinguish them from the traditional physical diseases we all fear because we have no clear choice or personal responsibility for getting them.
ted
I understand that alcoholism can be considered a disease. My problem with that is that I think the term is misleading in the sense that in the public eye disease is NOT associated with choice or personal responsibility. "Behavioral disease" would be a much less misleading term.
As Stanton Peele wrote:
"The disease model has been so profitable and politically successful that it has spread to include problems of eating, child abuse, gambling, shopping, premenstrual tension, compulsive love affairs, and almost every other form of self-destructive behavior... From this perspective, nearly every American can be said to have a disease of addiction."
ted
catch-22
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by tedseeker
Gary and zencat,
"Behavioral disease" would be a much less misleading term.
ted
"Behavioral disease" would be a much less misleading term.
ted
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
