Tomas

As long as something is published like 97% negative stats..knowing that it works for me and others..I will respond and defend to the fullest...The purpose of the riginal post.

Tom you are right about the the young and the casuals...Also the treatment people don't help the stat pool.. They are told after treatment to attend AA it's been my experience that the vast majority never get it..

Dr. Bob said if they don't want it find someone who does..

Today with this instant information age where anyone can make irrsponsible comments and be heard by many, remarks can have damaging impact...It is IMPORTANT to respond and respond vigorously...intelligently...and knowledgebly...My original post was based primarily on my experience as a newcomer...and my exprience saying sober in the rooms the past 35 yrs..It all comes down to ths for me..AA is not a program for people who need it but for people who want it..and work for it..

Carol the important thing for us is that the statistics come from U tube and Google..<TODAY>

THAT's what is IMPORTANT affecting..young and sick minds...That misleading propagands should not be allowed to stand unchallenged...That was what the post was about...My duty to help the still suffering..My refuting the failure rate...very simple

People today have this attitude throw the s*** on the wall and see if it sticks//and let's get on with our own scam and make money off these 97% losers..My job as I see it is to help woe this 97% back...WHY..To help others achieve sobriety..in something substantial that has been around for 70 odd years..and works.

navysteve

Amen brother! Sensationalism sells CD's. Why talk about boring old recovery when you can divide people in the fellowship. I can't even go to conventions anymore because they are more of a marketing weekend than anything else anymore.

Tomas

I never liked Joe and Charlie or their message. But I guess they got through to a lot of people and helped them..

Personally I like Fr. Martins stuff it sure helped me as a new comer..and knowing that..as long as it's permissable..marketing at a convention is OK with me..It adds a bit of color...at the least.

Dr. Vince a good AA friend many years used to say .."If you can stay sober in AA...
You can stay sober anywhere."

jimhere

What is doing you more harm than good is the constant debating and the constant fighting against a program you obviously have no interest in.

I myself said not too long ago that I don't post on the secular forums for the simple reason that the secular approach is not my cup of tea and why stir things up on those forums and get in the way of what is helping some people on those forums?

Go where you get helped and more importantly, as Andrew said, go where you can be of the most use.

bugsworth

I know I don't really belong here either but I do have a question about the original post.

Who was asking the questions and was it you Tomas answering them? I seem to be a bit confused...in my defense it is early and I have had only one cup of coffee.

Also, since I am here I would like to add that I have personally seen DK help newcomers, he has plenty to offer this site...maybe not in this forum, closed club that it is, but his candor and sincerity is of great value here at SR. Telling DK to get his head outta his a$$ IMO is not helpful and reeks of arrogance.

Interested in the answer to my question Tomas if you have a moment.

doorknob

Thanks, Dee and Bugs. It's all good. I'm Audi 5000...

Peace, love & hair grease,

DK

Music

Since we don't have an accurate count of people in AA, I don't see how anyone can measure the success rate.

Second, AA doesn't fail. People fail, so put the responsibility where it belongs. If I don't stay sober, it's not the fault of AA or anyone in AA. It's my fault for not working the program.

Freedom1990

Thank you so much for your honest answer, DK. I do appreciate it. :ghug

Ago

I agree with Paul's right to be an atheist, I even believe in Paul's right to be an atheist and a member of AA, I guess what I don't agree with is going to the AA forums and calling AA, a program that works, that even if we say it only has a 3% "success rate", a program that is still more successful then all other "programs" combined in the History of mankind, with a success rate that can be proved "scientifically", "hocus pocus" and based on "supernatural belief", which is absolutely not true.

I don't understand how the steps work, I really don't, but look at the results, people who work the steps to the best of their ability get and stay sober, and I would even go as far to say I can't think of very many people out of the tens of thousands of alcoholics who I have met in my years that actually "work" the steps that drink, and the ones that do, come back, I'd guess, from my experience, that the success rate from alcoholics that actually work the program, and work the steps, the success rate is above 99%, if you ask ANY relapser that returns why they drank, you usually find it's them that failed the program, not the program which failed them, whether it be they stopped going to meetings, got into a relationship too early, didn't listen to the suggestions, whatever, it wasn't the program that failed, it was them.

AA isn't a "silver bullet" you are actually required to do a little work, but if you do that work, it works, that is a "scientifically provable" fact, that no amount of arguing will change.

So I think that coming on to an AA forum and calling it "hocus pocus" and based on "Supernatural beliefs" is irresponsible, and damaging to everyone involved, and I will speak out against it, saying AA is Hocus pocus etc on the secular forums is entirely appropriate, that's the venue for it.


If I went to a Catholic Church, and started arguing with the people there about their beliefs I would expect my friends to tell me to get my head out of my a$$, in this day and age of "political correctness" and let's all play "nice" somewhere telling the truth to each other was lost in the shuffle.

I want my friends to tell me the truth, that's what makes them my friends, people who lie to me about my actions in my opinion are "enablers", and aren't truly my friends.

I would like to see Paul stay sober forever, I've even offered to take him through the steps myself, that doesn't mean I won't say something along the lines of what I did.

When I got to AA the people who saved my life were the people who cared more about saving my life then not hurting my feelings.

So, if I come across as arrogant for stating what I stated, I'm actually pretty comfortable with that, yeah I could have handled it differently, but in my opinion it's the truth, if anyone comes to an AA forum and calls it Supernatural and hocus pocus for no apparent purpose, without the concept of helping anyone in mind, with just furthering their own beliefs and agenda and being clever, as far as I am concerned they DO have their head up their a$$, not for their beliefs, which I support 100%, but for conveying them in an antagonistic manner for no apparent reason other then to "stir the pot" and cause controversy.

We know DK doesn't believe in God, we support his right to have that belief, but don't expect me to stand by idly and watch MY program called hocus pocus and basically bullsh1t on it's own forum by anyone, cause it ain't gonna happen. Say whatever you want about AA elsewhere, but don't come to the AA forum in a thread about AA and call AA bullsh1t without expecting to get a response, this isn't a "private club" this is the AA forum, and as such, we talk about AA, to think otherwise is foolish. As was stated elsewhere in this thread, I for example am not a "christian" but I don't go to their forums and call their beliefs "superstitions nonsense" (just an example) and to do so would be antagonistic, irresponsible, and one could say to me and about me with some degree of truth that if I did so I had my head up my a$$, it's not subject to debate or interpretation, I would not be being helpful there, no matter what I was doing elsewhere, in that instance I would even could be considered to being harmful.

If I was actively trying to become a Christian and I was going their asking questions and stating areas in which I was confused and asking them to clarify that would be one thing, but if I were to go there and "name call" such as calling it all "hocus pocus" with no idea of having an open mind, that I just camped in the Christian forum month after month questioning their beliefs and calling it superstition with no idea of ever having an open mind, just squatting there and talking smack month in and month out, I would consider that being antagonistic and would expect rebuttal and possibly a harsh reaction, to think otherwise is just not realistic.

It's pretty simple

SoberforME

This reminds me of weight loss stats.

You know 95% of people that lose weight fail, so why even try? You know how many people I have met that are 400 lbs but won't even try because of that stat? Is it true? Depends on who you ask, what study, when etc.

What I know is I lost 120 lbs 6 years ago. I changed my lifestyle, that changed my weight.

I have gained some back (partly due to drinking) and am working on getting it off again.

Does that mean I FAILED? No, it means I am making a lifestyle change after 30 years of eating one way.

That can be applied to drinking. Is 60 days sober better than 0 days sober, even if we go back to drinking? Yes.

Does it do good even if the alcoholic drinks for 2 months and gets sober for 3 months and repeats? Yes.

Hopefully everyone will be sober permanently. That's what I want for myself. But stats are generally misleading and often dangerous to those trying to or thinking about change.

Now with that said, are there things I would change about AA? Sure. I'm sure that the billion people in AA today maybe aren't as passionate as those in 1939. We're like a small town that's turned into a large city. So I am sure those that need a lot of support often fall through the cracks. Let's change that, but I wouldn't do it using the 3% stat. it's just misleading.

My .02

SoberforMe

doorknob

Yo... for the record, I did not call AA hocus pocus, not even on the secular forum. I was saying that programs like SMART, LifeRing, etc. are NOT hocus pocus in response to Tomas' post (his words):

Tomas

Bugs..Angelina Jolie, in a leather halter.. asked the questions...and I answered to the best of my ability..in my 35 years of sobriety..to defend the integrity of AA as I have experienced and observed....Is that a sufficient answer to assuage your first casual coffee reading material.

To be honest..I don't think many got the point to this thread...it's about what's on U=tube and Google on AA success rate...That was made clear...more than once...It was a defense against that rubbish..and how it affects our image..which is important..because obviously too many are not getting the message...VITALLY important to our PRIMARY PURPOSE

No one even went their to satisfy their curiorosity..to U=tube or Google

The earlier messages were riddled with narcissism..

The Hocu Pocus was stated in the orignal post.. Me summing up all the rinky dink programs...mostly by scemers trying to make a buck off alcoholism


and then the direction changed...the thread turned personal,and became a peeing match between an atheist and whatever..

I'm sorry, but this is the last post I shall waste my time on this site..The attention span to facts and informed debate is Zero

Tomas
Signing off

Ago

I think we got off track for two reasons, one is we have had "this debate" about "stats" so many times on this forums we are tired of it (That's my reason anyway).

I mean we have seen this topic so many times and it has always turned into a tedious conversation, with someone "viewing with alarm for the good of AA" or someone else using it to knock AA, your post was thought provoking and well thought out, and as I stated in my first post, my "primary purpose" is to stay sober and help other alcoholics, and I can best do that by concentrating on my own program, that's just me. Like I said, for awhile I got "alarmed for the good of AA" in various forms, one of which was the "statistic debate" that frankly I have only seen online, to me, the program of Alcoholics anonymous occurs in the rooms of AA and that's where I can best be of service any more.

Secondly it got derailed, and I will take some responsibility for that derailment, because in thread after thread the topic gets hijacked to be about DK's spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) and that just gets tedious after 2 or 3 hundred threads.

Thank you for the topic and for posting the transcript, be well on your journey.

navysteve

A bit condescending don't you think?????

No offense, but you told us all about YOUR time in AA. Your time is nothing more than a date on the calendar. I recall hearing something about quantity not being as important as quality

turn333

i haven't been to an AA meeting in a long time
the 1 thing that we seem to forget is that most of the people in AA are court ordered
& also IF YOU DONT HAVE THE DESIRE TO QUIT THEN AA WILL NOT WORK NO MATTER HOW MANY MEETINGS YOU ATTEND !!

RufusACanal

Hello all. I apologize for not posting of late; working more than usual. My new guy fell off and have not met another, but looking. Welcome to the Newcomers, turn333 and Tomas. Hope this finds each of you well!

Lily

Oh, I just saw your reply about leaving Tomas this discussion.

FightingIrish

I guess his fourth column was blank...

Music

If that's the way you feel DK, maybe it's time to fish or cut bait. One of the first things I heard when I came to AA is "the door swings both ways." People leave for a lot of reasons, not just to go back out to drink. AA from the beginning has been a "higher power" or God powered program, depending on one's choice and interpretation. If that offends you, leave. But to think that anyone in AA, or anything about AA should change just to suit you is preposterous. AA started from a resentment and a desire to make some changes, so you're welcome as anyone is, to leave and start your own program. Don't let the door smack you in the butt on the way out, and that goes for anyone else here who feels they can't be happy in AA. Good luck and God's speed.

jimhere

Sorry that my attention span is so short. I barely finished high school, you know.

I would guess that those stats are probably fairly close to accurate, but it is not the fault of treatment centers, drug addicts in AA, or anyone else. It is OUR fault that the AA message doesn't get carried in AA.

Most of us are too worried about offending someone and hurting someone's sensitive little feelings to stand for anything. And if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. But, let someone who actually cares more about whether an alcoholic lives or dies say anything to the contrary and he or she gets called a "Big Book Nazi," or "rigid and intolerant," or worse.

And what we've fallen for is a watered down mess of something that gets called AA in most places. A message that in part has been sold to us by people who claim to be our friends and in many places is really the message of Narcotics Anonymous. Just read the NA basic text, you will see many of the phrases you hear in AA meetings, stuff like "ninety in ninety," "I'm a liar and a cheat and thief," and so on. The meeting based recovery and the idea of a drug is a drug and picking a date and keeping it and choosing not to use or drink all originally came to us from NA, filtered through treatment center counselors. And of course these counselors are required to teach stuff like relapse prevention and other therapies. Not their fault, they are just doing their job.

I'm not bashing our friends in NA, but try taking the AA message into an NA meeting and see what happens. Yet we sit by and pretend we are tolerant when really we are afraid of what happens when we make a stand for our message.

As for Joe & Charlie, I kinda like 'em. Joe McQ wrote a book called "Carry This Message." What message? The message of hope contained in the book called Alcoholics Anonymous. Time to start carrying the AA message/

Let the name calling begin.
Jim