Ago

I agree with Paul's right to be an atheist, I even believe in Paul's right to be an atheist and a member of AA, I guess what I don't agree with is going to the AA forums and calling AA, a program that works, that even if we say it only has a 3% "success rate", a program that is still more successful then all other "programs" combined in the History of mankind, with a success rate that can be proved "scientifically", "hocus pocus" and based on "supernatural belief", which is absolutely not true.

I don't understand how the steps work, I really don't, but look at the results, people who work the steps to the best of their ability get and stay sober, and I would even go as far to say I can't think of very many people out of the tens of thousands of alcoholics who I have met in my years that actually "work" the steps that drink, and the ones that do, come back, I'd guess, from my experience, that the success rate from alcoholics that actually work the program, and work the steps, the success rate is above 99%, if you ask ANY relapser that returns why they drank, you usually find it's them that failed the program, not the program which failed them, whether it be they stopped going to meetings, got into a relationship too early, didn't listen to the suggestions, whatever, it wasn't the program that failed, it was them.

AA isn't a "silver bullet" you are actually required to do a little work, but if you do that work, it works, that is a "scientifically provable" fact, that no amount of arguing will change.

So I think that coming on to an AA forum and calling it "hocus pocus" and based on "Supernatural beliefs" is irresponsible, and damaging to everyone involved, and I will speak out against it, saying AA is Hocus pocus etc on the secular forums is entirely appropriate, that's the venue for it.


If I went to a Catholic Church, and started arguing with the people there about their beliefs I would expect my friends to tell me to get my head out of my a$$, in this day and age of "political correctness" and let's all play "nice" somewhere telling the truth to each other was lost in the shuffle.

I want my friends to tell me the truth, that's what makes them my friends, people who lie to me about my actions in my opinion are "enablers", and aren't truly my friends.

I would like to see Paul stay sober forever, I've even offered to take him through the steps myself, that doesn't mean I won't say something along the lines of what I did.

When I got to AA the people who saved my life were the people who cared more about saving my life then not hurting my feelings.

So, if I come across as arrogant for stating what I stated, I'm actually pretty comfortable with that, yeah I could have handled it differently, but in my opinion it's the truth, if anyone comes to an AA forum and calls it Supernatural and hocus pocus for no apparent purpose, without the concept of helping anyone in mind, with just furthering their own beliefs and agenda and being clever, as far as I am concerned they DO have their head up their a$$, not for their beliefs, which I support 100%, but for conveying them in an antagonistic manner for no apparent reason other then to "stir the pot" and cause controversy.

We know DK doesn't believe in God, we support his right to have that belief, but don't expect me to stand by idly and watch MY program called hocus pocus and basically bullsh1t on it's own forum by anyone, cause it ain't gonna happen. Say whatever you want about AA elsewhere, but don't come to the AA forum in a thread about AA and call AA bullsh1t without expecting to get a response, this isn't a "private club" this is the AA forum, and as such, we talk about AA, to think otherwise is foolish. As was stated elsewhere in this thread, I for example am not a "christian" but I don't go to their forums and call their beliefs "superstitions nonsense" (just an example) and to do so would be antagonistic, irresponsible, and one could say to me and about me with some degree of truth that if I did so I had my head up my a$$, it's not subject to debate or interpretation, I would not be being helpful there, no matter what I was doing elsewhere, in that instance I would even could be considered to being harmful.

If I was actively trying to become a Christian and I was going their asking questions and stating areas in which I was confused and asking them to clarify that would be one thing, but if I were to go there and "name call" such as calling it all "hocus pocus" with no idea of having an open mind, that I just camped in the Christian forum month after month questioning their beliefs and calling it superstition with no idea of ever having an open mind, just squatting there and talking smack month in and month out, I would consider that being antagonistic and would expect rebuttal and possibly a harsh reaction, to think otherwise is just not realistic.

It's pretty simple