soberlicious

exactly...and yes, I fully understand the concept. I must decide if it suggests using. No one else. If I say I'm going to a bar with friends to go dancing, others might decide for me that my beast came up with this idea...I call total bullsh*t on that lol I have no desire to drink. That is not my beast talking. Additionally, as I've said before, celebrating my yearly clean date does not awaken my beast, but I understand that it does for others. There are lots of other examples but you get the idea. Obviously I have been at the mercy of my beast before, but that was a long time ago and I've got her number now. It goes without saying that one who continues using has not become skilled at identifying and seperating from the AV.

coffeenut

Really enjoying this thread. Thanks!

aNewDawn

Just felt like writing this down as I woke up a few mins ago... The best thing about AVRT and Rational Recovery is that it gave me HOPE for my future. Sure, it's likely going to be a hard fight after everything I messed up while drinking, but I can work on that. I really feel relieved after everything I've read and been told over the years how I am powerless and basically waiting to hit "rock bottom". Waiting and drinking... And I really did not want to do that anymore, but somehow didn't manage to stop.

Terminally Unique

Wellwisher just pointed out to me that this thread has over 5,000 views already, which I hadn't even noticed. I wonder if that also includes people who aren't even registered as members on here?

Terminally Unique

Bingo. So they need a little more help until they do. We can't all be as clever as you. :-)

Terminally Unique

This is common. Rational Recovery calls it the Abstinence Commitment Effect (ACE). Trust those feelings. They can last a lifetime if you let them.

soberlicious

LOL so true, TU, alas... it isn't easy being me

ElvisInASkirt

Starting to properly get it.

Objectify your desire - you're not your thoughts.

Nothing wrong with hearing the addict voice in your head. It's normal. Acting through it can't happen whilst you objectify the AV.

Supercrew

Has anyone tried using the AVRT method for procrastination?

Instead of "addictive voice" the "procrastinating voice" that many of us have. Basically couldn't this technigue be used for other areas of our lives when you know you need to do something, but the little voice says why don't you do something else.

FT

Supercrew,

I am successfully using ARVT and am a successful non-opiate-user for over 9 months.

I have recently started using it for weight loss. I see no reason why it couldn't be used for procrastination or other such issues.

FT

Supercrew

Thanks for your input FT, and congrats on your success! The more I read about AVRT the more I realize how any voice in your head that is not working towards accomplishing your goals in life are acting like "the beast", and keeping you from from gaining ultimate happiness.

It seems our brains work against themselves to cause us problems, and by being able to always recognise the voice that is holding us back would be a tremedous tool for everyone...not just people who are addicted.

Terminally Unique

One of the prime functions of the Addictive Voice is to conceal the Beast's existence, so that you don't even know it is there. Think about how your hunger drive works. It feels like "you" want it, and when hungry, all of your thoughts will be organized around getting some food. If you want a more complex example, think about how your sex drive works.

Once you can objectify your desire (the Beast) and observe it, though, it's game is almost up. Observe your thoughts, both pro and con, towards your DOC. If you are unsure about who is calling the shots, use this shifting technique; ask yourself how you see something, versus how your Beast sees it. Pretty soon you'll have her card, as soberlicious put it.

I used to watch my cat hunt at night, trying to outmaneuver his ever-elusive prey, sometimes for hours, and I've gotten to the point where I can visualize myself "watching" the Beast. Kind of like watching a nature documentary. Of course, instead of chasing mice, the Beast chases whiskey bottles. :-)

Remember, at the end of the day, no matter what explanation or grand scheme it may come up with, your Beast has only one answer to all questions: drink!

ElvisInASkirt

I feel it lighten up when I think of the possibility of drinking German beer. When I think of this I know it's not me. I feel disgusted and a bit shaken that thoughts like these can arise. I know the source though but it seems unusual that it's activity has increased quite a bit in the last week after being absent for a month.

I can actually 'hear' it rattling about in my mind.

It's the same thing I used to have conversations with when I was really drunk. Could almost feel it's presence.

There's a big difference between understanding these concepts intellectually and the gravity of understanding truly hitting.

Terminally Unique

Naturally. Your Beast sees a boozing opportunity, and is getting excited, salivating like a hog at feeding time. :-)

Why do you feel shaken? This is disease thinking nonsense, that "desire" is bad, and that it shouldn't exist. That is rubbish. Get it out of your head immediately.

I recall you saying that you still check that "sober time" calculator regularly, and it sounds like it might be catching up with you. I suggest you stop that habit, and remember that it is always now, and that it is never any easier or any more difficult to ignore desire than now.

Ask yourself:

How difficult has it been for you to abstain since making your Big Plan? You've obviously done it, so not too difficult, no?

How difficult is it right this moment for you to abstain? You are obviously sober, so not to difficult, no?

Now, realize that everything exists only in the present moment, that it always has been now, and that as your life goes on, regardless of the day, it will always be now as well. The future will never arrive, it will always be now, and likewise, it will never be any more difficult than it is right this moment to abstain.

In other words, you have nothing to fear. I realize this may not sink in right away, but ponder it.

Let it rattle, it can't hurt you. When you feel it squirm, rejoice. They are the death throes of a wounded animal trying to escape from its cage. It may be making one last adrenaline-fueled rush for the exit, as any beast would, but keep it locked up, and it will get the message and settle down.

AVRT is like a muscle, it gets easier the more you use it, so that eventually it becomes second nature, effortless.

FT

That is so true. I didn't even know I was practicing what is now known as AVRT when I quit drinking over 20 years ago. It took probably 3 years before not drinking actually became "effortless" for me, but eventually it really did. It still has. Not drinking for me now is as natural as not smoking, which I have never done. People smoking or drinking around me may annoy me for various reasons, but I am never tempted to join in.

Now I am putting the same method to the test with oxycodone. I am a practicing non-opiate-user and have been for over 9 months. I didn't realize I was practicing the techniques of AVRT in December when I started, but when I discovered it a few months ago, I had a definite "aha" moment. Wow, I would have love to have known about AVRT a long time ago.

Not using oxys really is effortless for me at this moment, but I think that is only because I have arranged my life to have ZERO ACCESS to it. For me, that's easier than it was to avoid alcohol, which was always around me at the time I quit drinking due to my profession.

I see no reason to taunt The Beast if I don't have to. I'm glad I never bought my drugs off the street, nor have I ever hung around users. My use was always in secret, so no social issues there.

Just some thoughts.

FT

Terminally Unique

It can have its benefits if you want to really get to know your Beast. You can actually speed up the desensitization with repeated, intentional taunts, in effect wearing out the Beast. For example, Elvis could force his Beast to come out and play by watching YouTube video reviews of his favorite German beers. It wouldn't feel pleasant, but it would raise the stakes and ratchet up the beat-down on his Beast.

Instant work out. :-)

FT

Interesting concept. Maybe that's actually what I was doing when I quit drinking long ago. Here's what I did.

When I decided to quit, I bought a bottle of cold duck (my favorite alcoholic drink) and put it in the fridge where I could see it every time I opened the door. I always knew it was there, and I could look at it any time I wanted. I knew I could drink it any time I wanted, too.

Every day at the time I would usually drink, I would go look at the bottle of cold duck in the fridge. I would then make a conscious decision to go do something else before drinking it. Usually, I would eat something, and then go out for a walk. I postponed my decision to drink every day, all the while telling myself I could have it if I REALLY wanted it. Later on, I might look at it again, but usually I just went on with my evening without feeling compelled to keep looking at the bottle.

I repeated that drill on a daily basis for months. It became easier and easier not to drink the cold duck over those months. That was many years ago, and I've told this story on the forum before, never realizing that what you are saying about desensitization was what I was really doing. Makes sense.

I never drank the bottle of cold duck. Eventually it disappeared, and I don't know if my husband threw it away or what happened to it. I just know I never did drink it. In fact, I haven't had ANY alcohol since the day I decided to quit.

Funny thing is that I can STILL recall that wonderful warm rush I would get at the end of the day when I took my first drink. I try not to romanticize it, and I really don't know where to put the memory of that feeling. Thankfully, that thought has long since ceased to give me what I used to call "pulls" to drink. Lordy, lordy, am I glad for that.

FT

Terminally Unique

FT,

Yes, what you did is not incongruent with the AVRT concept of shifting. Another example of how this approach differs from conventional wisdom. In traditional treatment, what you did would be considered insane, dangerous, a warning sign of relapse, a slippery place, etc. AVRT is recovery with an attitude, though, and goes straight for the jugular to get the job done right.

If you hesitate to kick your Beast's ass, it certainly won't hesitate to sacrifice you in order to get its fix, so why show it mercy? In fact, it is better if you enjoy kicking its ass. Be ruthless - it's payback time! What is it Trimpey told me yesterday? Something along the lines of "if you're not having fun with AVRT, you're not doing it right."

In that vein, I do hope this thread stays lighthearted and doesn't get too boring. :-)

FT

TU,

I'll have to check out that "shifting" concept.

When I did "my technique", I didn't ask anyone's opinion, and I didn't look up methods to decide what to do. The way it actually happened was I had purchased the bottle of cold duck with the full intention of drinking it. It was after the purchase that I suddenly came to the decision that my life had become ridiculous and I felt the fool with alcohol being in charge of whether and where I would even leave the house after work. I had gotten to the place where I would not plan a trip or get on a plane without first making sure where my alcohol source was going to come from.

So, yes, I did quit with an attitude. That bottle represented everything I hated about my life at the time. It became something detestable, and I carried that attitude with me when I rejected it on a daily basis for months. I had bought it, it had won. No, I decided, booze , "you lose". Enough. Maybe it was the attitude that got me through. But viewing that bottle actually became a source of strength to me. It was empowering.

Whenever I've told my story, it always comes with a disclaimer that it is probably not the best idea for a lot of drinkers who are trying to quit.

But, for me, it really worked.

FT

ElvisInASkirt

I think my problem before was that I seen any encounter with desire as a failure on my own part which is a very defensive approach to take.

I watched a video there about various types of rose wine and I felt some stirrings inside. I can feel 'it' expanding and then contracting again like a lung. It tries to pull me in but if I stop and breath it disappears.

The next phase must begin in earnest and that's coping with eternity.

"I feel uneasy in my own company"

What is it that it is keeping me company? I am 1 person.