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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion

Old 09-24-2011, 09:10 PM
  # 301 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
It depends on how you look at it. In traditional treatment, this would be a sign of imminent relapse. In AVRT, however, it is a sign that the Beast is finished. It has become so weak and pathetic that it must now "indulge" when it has free reign but when you are comatose, and when it couldn't possibly get you to drink.

It is dying... be happy. :-)
Totally.

I still feel it stirring at times and I can catch it doing weird things. Today I was looking up flights to Las Vegas. Why? Oh it was the Beast.

Things are going great.
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:06 PM
  # 302 (permalink)  
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I am so glad I found this thread a while back. I'd also like to thank Terminally Unique for the support on here and in his private message with additional links to some stuff freely available on the web. It's really helping me a lot!

Anyway, I thought I'd ask here about the subscription on the RR site. I am considering getting one for a month or two, but I am not sure if it's worth it. I'd mainly be interested in the forums. Are there a lot of threads with activity or only a few people hanging around?

Anyway, I am back to reading "the new cure" book in bed. Great stuff so far!
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:39 PM
  # 303 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by aNewDawn View Post
Anyway, I thought I'd ask here about the subscription on the RR site. I am considering getting one for a month or two, but I am not sure if it's worth it. I'd mainly be interested in the forums. Are there a lot of threads with activity or only a few people hanging around?
The RR forums are not like most recovery forums, in that they are not a place to share about issues or personal problems. The topic is always AVRT-based recovery, and once people get the hang of AVRT, they tend not to stick around. Indeed, they don't encourage "sharing" of personal information on the RR forums, and when your subscription runs out, you won't get a message asking you to resubscribe. It is more of an "OK, now that you know AVRT, go ahead and get on with your life" attitude.

As for whether it is worth it or not, that depends on whether you have more questions on AVRT. The forums are moderated by Deborah Springborn, who has been with RR for a while now, and Jack Trimpey will often answers questions on AVRT as well. You also get access to the old BBS archives, which can be useful, although I only really skimmed through them, to be honest. In hindsight, I regret not having read through more of that when I was subscribed.

For most people, I would guess that a one-month subscription would be enough, but for people who have a lot of prior exposure to addiction treatment and who want to unlearn some things that have not been helpful to them, a three month subscription might not be entirely out of order. I would recommend reading the book before subscribing; you can then decide if you need additional clarification based on whether you have the hang of AVRT or not.
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:49 PM
  # 304 (permalink)  
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Interesting approach, Unique
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:04 AM
  # 305 (permalink)  
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When I was FORCED to go to NA at one time years ago, the thing that stuck in my craw was the part where people robotically uttered: "I am powerless over my addiction." I had to subdue my anger at that suggestion and attend for several months. I entertained myself by people-watching, having chosen a group that were inner city street people, most of whom were also forced to be there. It was a lesson learned, but not in the way that NA intended.

The concept of "the Beast" is interesting to me. I have been enjoying Eckhart Tolle's books for a number of years, and it almost reminds me of what he terms the "pain body". I just wondered if anyone else had ever noted the connection. The "pain body" is part of our ego as a whole, and when active it plays upon the pain bodies of other humans it encounters. It can overwhelm and envelop the rest of the ego until its time dies out or the person takes control over it. Interesting analogy to what AVRT is talking about.

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Old 09-26-2011, 12:24 AM
  # 306 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by failedtaper View Post
When I was FORCED to go to NA at one time years ago, the thing that stuck in my craw was the part where people robotically uttered:

"I am powerless over my addiction."
AVRT can actually provide a very potent defense against such a situation. Viewed through the lens of AVRT, the statement "I am powerless over my addiction" fits the definition of the Addictive Voice perfectly, since it necessarily suggests that someone will drink/use again unless they do certain things. AVRT will not only kill addictions, it will also inoculate against any thinking that might facilitate their continuance.
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Old 09-26-2011, 12:52 AM
  # 307 (permalink)  
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Moderation and the Addictive Voice

This is something that Trimpey wrote regarding moderation as it pertains to AVRT, which I think makes sense. I've heard some people say that they can use AVRT "in between" drinking episodes, to cut back, but I think that is pretty ridiculous, and probably quite a gamble.

Originally Posted by Jack Trimpey

I will state here the Moderation Commitment Effect, which goes like this:
The more one yearns to drink moderately, the less likely he or she is to ever succeed.
That's just the way it is; it's in the cards we're dealt. Someone who drinks excessively on occasion does not yearn to drink moderately. Either he/she does, or doesn't. Someone who drinks excessively on numerous occasions may quit altogether, and have no more problems. But one who continues to drink excessively, in spite of mounting problems, is demonstrating a fundamental, permanent, functional problem. Anyone who is capable of moderating will do so without transitional yearning. The yearning is simply Addictive Voice.
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:38 AM
  # 308 (permalink)  
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"I will never use again and I will never change my mind." This reminds me of something someone advised when I was in treatment a few months ago: convince yourself that "using is not an option -- ever!" His thinking was that if it's regarded as an option under some circumstance, an addict's mind will figure out a way to make that happen.

I modified this somewhat and ran with it. I sorta set out to regard the mere idea of my using again as meaningless, kinda like the idea of a square circle. As silly as it may sound, the question "will I ever use again?" sounds now like gibberish. Last time someone asked me if I thought I'd ever use again, I responded: "huh?" Not the same thing as the unwavering commitment I see discussed in this thread, for "I will never use again" seems now equally as meaningless.

Anyway, I post this as an anecdote. So many things have changed I cleaned up a few months ago that I've no idea whether this bit of conceptual surgery has anything to do with the fact that I haven't thought about using at all. In any case, sorta fun for someone who likes philosophy of language.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:12 PM
  # 309 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Augie View Post
convince yourself that "using is not an option -- ever!" His thinking was that if it's regarded as an option under some circumstance, an addict's mind will figure out a way to make that happen.
Naturally, one of the prime functions of your Addictive Voice is to organize all of your thoughts around the addictive mandate, which is to drink/use.

Originally Posted by Augie View Post
So many things have changed I cleaned up a few months ago that I've no idea whether this bit of conceptual surgery has anything to do with the fact that I haven't thought about using at all.
What if someday you did think about using? What then?
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
What if someday you did think about using? What then?
About a month ago I decided to give up smoking. Didn't occur to me at the time to think of smoking as "using" and seek to remove the idea of smoking from my thinking as even a possibility. Honestly, I'd forgotten altogether that I'd taken that approach with other drugs and booze.

Having ditched smokes in the past, I knew I'd have cravings for a while, even though I'd be wearing the patch. I'd been learning about "mindfulness", reading guys like Rick Hanson, Jon Kabat-Zinn, secular Buddhists, and embracing concepts and practices which conduce a mindful disposition towards thoughts and emotions in general. I'd been seeing results in treating anxiety with mindfulness and had the sense it would help when I wanted a smoke. When those cravings did come, I thought of them as existing in "spacious awareness", in an environment where they had no friction and couldn't get a foothold. When it was possible for me to sit down and meditate for a bit, I tried to regard the craving sort of...pre-conceptually? Not as a craving or as anything at all; just as a bare sensation that had no inherent quality or value and was deserving of no reaction on my part. (Sorry if I can't explain this well; I'm not sure language has any place here.) Delightfully, the cravings just sort of slid by, and after a couple weeks they just went away.

So, to answer your question (finally): I'd like to think that, when/if cravings of any sort return, I can regard them mindfully and watch them come and go, just like any other thought or emotion I don't want to "hook" me. My next test of this approach will come when I start cutting down on the patch. Now that this thread has reminded me of that "conceptual surgery" I was talking about, I reckon I'll start prepping soon and work on removing "more nicotine" from the realm of possibility. We'll see how it goes.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:25 PM
  # 311 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Augie View Post
I'd like to think that, when/if cravings of any sort return, I can regard them mindfully and watch them come and go, just like any other thought or emotion I don't want to "hook" me. My next test of this approach will come when I start cutting down on the patch. Now that this thread has reminded me of that "conceptual surgery" I was talking about, I reckon I'll start prepping soon and work on removing "more nicotine" from the realm of possibility. We'll see how it goes.
I suppose that would correlate with AVRT somewhat, since one must be mindful of the desire to drink/use/smoke when it comes, and then essentially disregard it as ego-alien. As for the nicotine patch, I'm more of a cold turkey fan myself.

BTW, the parts I put in bold face sound like self-doubt as to your own ability to quit, i.e., your AV.
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:11 PM
  # 312 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by failedtaper
The concept of "the Beast" is interesting to me. I have been enjoying Eckhart Tolle's books for a number of years, and it almost reminds me of what he terms the "pain body". I just wondered if anyone else had ever noted the connection. The "pain body" is part of our ego as a whole, and when active it plays upon the pain bodies of other humans it encounters. It can overwhelm and envelop the rest of the ego until its time dies out or the person takes control over it. Interesting analogy to what AVRT is talking about.
Yes! I absolutely see the connection...
"The voice in the head has a life of its own....When you are identified with that voice, you don't know this, of course. If you knew it, you would no longer be possessed because you are only truly possessed when you mistake the possessing entity for who you are, that is to say, when you become it." from A New Earth ~Eckhart Tolle
huge parallel to AVRT imo. Identifying the beast as completely seperate from you.
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:33 PM
  # 313 (permalink)  
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A New Earth is my favorite Tolle volume. Thanks for the quote!

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Old 09-26-2011, 06:10 PM
  # 314 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
BTW, the parts I put in bold face sound like self-doubt as to your own ability to quit, i.e., your AV.
I can see how it would appear that way in the AVRT framework. I'm not convinced yet that the drive to think and speak rationally about my recovery is a manifestation of addictive voice or otherwise indicative of self-doubt. Interesting idea, haven't thought enough about the nature of addictive disorder to have anything against it; just haven't seen any compelling reason to embrace it personally. If ever I start getting itchy (oops, there's my addictive voice again :-), maybe I'll give it some more thought.
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:24 PM
  # 315 (permalink)  
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Links Please?

Terminally Unique -
Could you send me the links to information on AVRT. via PM that you have sent to others? I am on page 5 of this most fascinating thread and would love more information. Back to reading!! Oh and I won't be able to respond to you via PM as this is on my second post to the site and it seems you need 5 to PM.
Thanks so much!!!
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:07 PM
  # 316 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Augie View Post
If ever I start getting itchy (oops, there's my addictive voice again :-), maybe I'll give it some more thought.
I call them like I see them. For example, the bold part is also your AV here. If you were itchy, the rational thing to do would be to definitely give it some more thought.

Something to ponder, though:

What do you think about keeping the nicotine flowing a little bit longer so that you remain addicted? Good/Bad?

What does your Beast think about the idea of postponing the inevitable for just a little bit longer? Good/Bad?

Who is making the taper schedule? You or your Beast? :-)
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:12 PM
  # 317 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Augie
I'm not convinced yet that the drive to think and speak rationally about my recovery is a manifestation of addictive voice or otherwise indicative of self-doubt.
I am not convinced of this either. I think we've talked about this before (maybe on a different thread don't remember), that I feel skilled enough at identifying my AV...I am not afraid that every musing or thought I have is coming from the beast. If I lived like that I'd go nuts (again lol)
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:32 PM
  # 318 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I am not convinced of this either. I think we've talked about this before (maybe on a different thread don't remember), that I feel skilled enough at identifying my AV...I am not afraid that every musing or thought I have is coming from the beast. If I lived like that I'd go nuts (again lol)
Remember the definition of the Addictive Voice: "Any thinking, feeling, or imagery that supports, or even suggests, your future drinking/using, ever." If your thoughts suggest future using, continued using, or procrastinating quitting, then it is AV. If not, then it isn't AV. You don't need to be afraid at all, because the AV is usually very conspicuous; you need only look at the end result if you were to listen to it. Does it support or suggest taking more drugs, or not?

It goes without saying that any thinking that undermines your confidence to quit necessarily supports taking more drugs.
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:01 PM
  # 319 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
I call them like I see them. For example, the bold part is also your AV here. If you were itchy, the rational thing to do would be to definitely give it some more thought.
I'd say the rational thing to do would be to think about how to change my approach, and that might or might not involve leveraging some concept or other from AVRT.

Something to ponder, though:

What do you think about keeping the nicotine flowing a little bit longer so that you remain addicted? Good/Bad?

What does your Beast think about the idea of postponing the inevitable for just a little bit longer? Good/Bad?

Who is making the taper schedule? You or your Beast? :-)
Do you think the next release of AVRT will expand on its supply of metaphors?
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:12 PM
  # 320 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Augie View Post
I'd say the rational thing to do would be to think about how to change my approach, and that might or might not involve leveraging some concept or other from AVRT.
That was already implied from "give it some more thought," no? I only altered one word - the "maybe."

Originally Posted by Augie View Post
Do you think the next release of AVRT will expand on its supply of metaphors?
I have no idea, but while the Beast can be thought of as a metaphor, there really is a part of every addicted person's brain that is determined to get more of its precious mood altering stuff. In AVRT, that desire to get high is called the Beast, but it really doesn't matter what you call it, so long as you can objectify it.
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