freethinking

YES. I totally feel you here. Even when "sober" in the past, I always had this rooted fear inside me that was preparing for the fact that I would probably end up drinking again and I really believe now it's because I was convinced of this feeling of powerlessness that I had bought into. I don't feel that fear anymore.

Terminally Unique

Let your Beast worry about eternity.

Your Beast may be a constant companion, your fellow traveler, for a while. Indeed, it probably has been for a long time, you just may not have realized it.

Vlad

Great idea. I'll try it next week.

kicknNscreamin

What a great find, this Rational Recovery stuff! I love the idea of not being powerless, not handing over my fate to a higher power or a sponsor, etc. So weird, the day I started reading Rational Recovery was the day I stopped counting days. I didn't do it consciously, it just happened - I don't know how many days ago my last drink was. I just know that I'm not drinking now. I never drink now!!!! How FREEING this concept is!

edit: Guess I'll have to change my handle - - I'm no longer kicknNscreamin!

Terminally Unique

Terminally Unique

Terminally Unique

Someone who owns a copy of the "RR: TNC" book, but who has not read past the first chapter sent me the following question:

Simplicity is probably the main "flaw" in AVRT, since people may think "it can't be this simple."

This, of course, is pure Addictive Voice. It is your warden (the Beast) speaking, who does not want you to escape from the prison of addiction. It senses that AVRT is a threat to its survival, and it doesn't want you to investigate further. You can listen to your AV and not read the rest of the book, or you can do the smart thing and read all of it. The choice is yours.

As for relapses, there are no relapses in AVRT, only reversals of intent. Drinking/using is not something that inexplicably "just happens" to you, it is something you allow. If you have truly made a Big Plan, though, you have removed the option to ever drink, or to ever change your mind.

kicknNscreamin

So I'm back, having failed miserably to create a new handle. I'll attempt it again another time.

I am off work for the next 4 weeks as I get a handle on my emotional life. In order to have this time off be medically approved, I was required to attend an intake at the chemical dependency recovery program through my medical insurance. I was previously told part of the program was a requirement to attend AA. So, I was nervous since I knew I wasn't going to sign on to that.

I waited in the lobby to be called, reading RR and preparing for a fight with the intake worker. I didn't get the fight I expected and, after sharing my views (learned in just a couple of chapters of RR) the intake worker told me it sounds like I've got a good grip on my sobriety.

I will attend group therapy for my depression (present way before I began drinking) and am looking forward to my first meeting tomorrow.

I'm so glad I found RR!!

ElvisInASkirt

I'd definitely agree with the no relapses/only reversal of intent bit. I've been observing Frank and he keeps hinting at the romance of drinking on holiday non-stop. I read a line about a hotel having a liquor store and FRANK SURGED! I could feel shockwaves of animal impulse trying to inundate myself and be born of words and plans.

I just felt the power of it and let it be and it disappeared.

There will never be drinking on holiday.

Frank is saying that I've pussied out by booking a quiet resort and that I should book Las Vegas for a 'real test'. My answer was thus 'Even if I do go to Vegas I will never drink, in fact if that ever happens it will be a day of great sober joy as you'll have just had one major kick to the sack.'.

FT

I'm either sober or I'm not. If I plan to drink tonight, I'm not sober -- even if I haven't had a drop for 20 years.

Same goes for relapses. A relapse represents a change in mental status -- nothing more.

The percentage of alcohol or drugs in my bloodstream has nothing to do with my sobriety. If I am in a car wreck and am given opiates in the ER, I am still sober because my intention continues to remain a non-opiate-user. There has been no change in my intentions. Accepting pain medication as needed does not make me an opiate user, unless I have a shift in my intentions. There is no clock to reset, no calendar to start re-counting days sober.

I simply do what other non-opiate-users would do in the same situation. These kinds of decisions require no planning, no calendar checking. They are what they are. I am what I am. I choose to simplify my life in that way as it requires no action on my part.

FT

freethinking

For me, I'm not sober if I have used drugs or alcohol. Sobriety is not a state of mind for me. It is simply a fact of whether or not drugs or alcohol are in my system. I may be thinking all wrong and even have plans to drink again someday, but I am still sober if I have not drank.

Even when I was running in a different program, the term "relapse" never made any inner sense to me. When I drank, it never felt like anything other than a conscious decision to drink. "Relapse" almost made it sound like it was an accident, or that I didn't mean to do it. I actually hate the term now that I think of it!

FT

For me, if sobriety simply represents the time span measured between drinks, then there is no sobriety there without a mindset. I realize that a lot of programs measure sobriety that way, and maybe they have to so that "they" can quantify it.

For example, when I tried to quit drinking with limited "successes" of a few days, weeks, or months between, I failed each time because I had never truly made the decision that I was a non-drinker. I have been a non-drinker many years now, and I consider myself sober. By my definition, if I make a dinner date with my husband that includes wine tasting tonight, I am no longer sober even before I get there.

You could drive yourself crazy with semantics. I don't know what AVRT has to say about this, but for me the concept of sobriety becomes trite if it is viewed as just a physiologic state and not a psychological construct.

FT

freethinking

I'm just going by what the general public thinks of when they think of sobriety, I'm not getting too deep about it. When most people, in a program or not, talk about being sober they mean not being under the influence.

But, even if I were to get deep about it I still would probably argue that in terms of my belief system regarding not drinking, sobriety includes my good and bad moments as long as I have not drank. I can be thinking the most effed up things imaginable (having a drink included), but I am still sober.

Terminally Unique

As far as AVRT and "sobriety" goes, there is no such thing, certainly not as a psychological construct or a state of mind. You are either abstinent or you are not. The "RR: TNC" book still uses the term "sobriety" in a couple of places, since it is slightly dated, but from the context, it is clear that it implies not being drunk. AVRT is about abstinence, so within the AVRT paradigm:

Addiction Recovery = secure, permanent abstinence; nothing else.

It goes without saying that based on the Big Plan and the definition of the Addictive Voice, there is no such thing as one-day-at-a-time tentative sobriety. In the later book, "The Art of AVRT," this distinction is made even more explicit, going so far as to equate both sobriety and moderation with "Beast heaven," both rich opportunities to get completely tanked in the future.

That said, AVRT does not contradict legitimate medical uses for drugs. If you had surgery and needed morphine, for example, that wouldn't be a problem. If you kept taking morphine or some other opiate after surgery in order to get a buzz on, to feel that deep pleasure, however, you would be feeding your Beast big time.

Personally speaking, I tend not to use the term "sobriety," since it sounds ridiculous to me, just like "relapse" does. In common English usage, outside of the "recovery" ecosystem, nobody speaks of sobriety. When is the last time you heard someone who didn't have exposure to recovery groups or addiction treatment use the word "sobriety" in a sentence?

FT

Thank you for the clarification.

I am just reminded of the person undergoing forced "sobriety", as in someone who is incarcerated or being forced into a rehab facility. I just can't get behind the idea that those people are "sober" except in a technical sense.

I really dislike the word "sobriety", so I'm glad AVRT doesn't endorse it in particular. I especially hate it when it becomes a calendar event, which is why I feel if I am abstinent, I am abstinent. The trouble I have with not using a mental construct of intention is that anyone can call themselves abstinent (or sober) any time they are not putting drugs or alcohol in their system, regardless of the time elapsed (anywhere between 0 minutes and infinity), so in fact the daily drinker or drug user is actually "abstinent" as long as they are asleep or not otherwise using.

FT

Terminally Unique

AVRT, essentially being the nuts and bolts of free will, cannot be forced or "done to" anyone. There is a distinction made between chemical dependence, which is willfully using drugs and accepting the consequences, and addiction, which is using drugs in spite of the desire to quit using them or to minimize the consequences of doing so.

Within the AVRT paradigm, without ambivalence towards using, there is no addiction. In other words, if you don't want to quit at all, then you aren't addicted. That said, it is probably a fair bet to assume that most chemically dependent people are in fact addicted, but only they can truly know that. No one else can diagnose them as addicted, so to speak.

From the Rational Recovery dictionary:

freethinking

Yes, this is more or less how I seem to feel as well these days. It seems as though now that I have gone in a different direction with how I keep myself from drinking (SMART, RR, etc), not drinking has become a very small but manageable part of my life. I don't really want to say it is anything more than what it is; to me it is simply not drinking. Drinking and not drinking used to run my life. Now I am able to compartmentalize that facet of my life, and it feels so much more manageable this way. I can't say that I ignore it because I do attend SMART meetings a couple of times a month and still enjoy learning alternative methods people use to keep themselves from drinking....but this whole drinking/not drinking thing doesn't rule my entire being anymore.

freethinking

But realistically, could you clarify how this would ever be an issue? In your example, it is highly unlikely a daily drinker would ever say "I was abstinent last night for 8 hours while i slept". In what scenario would it be an issue if someone claimed sobriety when they had not drank but did not have a "sober" mental construct?

aNewDawn

Awww... My beast is somewhat active today trying to suggest that the next days are going to be tough for me as it's a long weekend with a free Monday (Day of German Unity) which would be perfect to get totally wasted. I am obviously not giving in! Take this!

ElvisInASkirt

Only option is to go all out and enjoy the day as much as you can to slight that side of your being

Got this engraved on my iPad today

"Gained my life back from Desire on
4th July 2011. Always say never."

Cool or what?