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AA vs. RR/AVRT

Old 03-12-2012, 12:49 PM
  # 61 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
So the million dollar question is was the power always there or was it bestowed upon them as a result of working the steps? That's like a zen riddle, how can you really answer that?
Here is how they answer that in the Big Book first edition.P55

Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.

Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.

We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:03 PM
  # 62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
Instead, they will demand that desire be removed, so they can then take the path that nature has laid out for them by default -- the path of least resistance.
Even Buddhist monks acknowledge that one cannot rid themselves of desire, in fact, they believe it is the incessent scrambling to rid oneself of desire that actually creates the suffering, not the desire itself. In this school of thought, desires are not seen as good or bad, they simply are...
There is also a distinction between desire and craving in Buddhist thought.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:05 PM
  # 63 (permalink)  
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I understand what you're saying Sapling, but you are just quoting a book written by ordinary people, not a deity. We would probably all agree that the key ingredient is wanting to quit more than you want to drink. That being the case both groups are arriving at the same destination albeit by different routes.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:08 PM
  # 64 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sapling View Post
Here is how they answer that in the Big Book first edition.P55

Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.

We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend.
Here we see very clearly where the "bashing" really started. Bill Wilson is saying that there are no atheists -- that they are only fooling themselves. I could be wrong, but I reckon a few atheists might disagree with that notion.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
I understand what you're saying Sapling, but you are just quoting a book written by ordinary people, not a deity. We would probably all agree that the key ingredient is wanting to quit more than you want to drink. That being the case both groups are arriving at the same destination albeit by different routes.
I'm just quoting the book...Correct...And I followed the directions in that book and I haven't had a drink in 9 months...Why?...Because it worked for those ordinary people that wrote it.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:13 PM
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'was the power always there or was it bestowed upon them as a result of working the steps?...you are just quoting a book written by ordinary people, not a deity.'

You would prefer that only a deity answers your question? I'm fine with that, but we may have quite a wait in store.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
Bill Wilson is saying that there are no atheists -- that they are only fooling themselves.
Yes, they will "come around" eventually. They will know "truth". Patronizing to say the least.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:20 PM
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I love how a thread asking for honest discussion and no bashing or arguments turns into a "which program is best" pissing match. Seems to be happening a lot around here and it's very tiresome.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:22 PM
  # 69 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by langkah View Post
'was the power always there or was it bestowed upon them as a result of working the steps?...you are just quoting a book written by ordinary people, not a deity.'

You would prefer that only a deity answers your question? I'm fine with that, but we may have quite a wait in store.
Maybe the one group only needed to be nudged through the breach to discover the power that was already there. Either that or the billions that quit without the steps are all delusional.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:24 PM
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I don't really get the...What's bashing and what's not TU....I'm here to see if I could help one person stop drinking for good...I tend to encourage people that are interested in the path that has worked for me...If they say that isn't their cup of tea...I'll encourage them to try Rational Recovery...I don't know much about it...I know my will Power sucks....Probably not my cup of tea...But if it works..I'm all for someone trying it...This fricken disease...Or whatever you want to call it..Ruined my life and almost killed me...Anything I can do or say that might spare someone that misery...Is fine with me...Bottom line...There are people here that need help....And I'll do whatever I can to offer it...
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:28 PM
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"Bashing"? .. It's a viewpoint. Nobody is requiring anyone agree.
If the proponents of rational recovery were more secure in their beliefs they would not find it so necessary to attack AA at every turn. The fact that they do speaks volumes.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:31 PM
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I was almost scared to click on this thread. I imagined a wasteland of thermonuclear destruction...

Instead I just see a bunch of folks who seem to have reached a very stable place, albeit by different routes.

PS: Hope the (relatively) civil tone continues.... It's all good. To each his own, right? No need to get bent out of shape folks. Different teams, perhaps, but same objective.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:32 PM
  # 73 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sapling View Post
I don't really get the...What's bashing and what's not TU....
I was being facetious with that remark, Sapling -- that's why I put "bashing" in quotes. I don't actually believe that the discussion that occasionally goes on here equates to 'bashing'. The expression as used in the recovery ecosystem is more often than not an attempt to shut down all potential discussion, under the premise that thinking = death. So, don't worry, Sapling, my response was not an attack on you. You are free to speak your mind in my book.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:37 PM
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A "p*ssing match" is a curious way to describe any sort of interaction. Matter of perception I suppose, I just don't see things that way. The original OP was a compare/contrast scenario of AA and RR/AVRT and I think the responses have highlighted that. If I find the religious undertones of AA to be problematic, that does not mean I think they should be problematic for all, by any means. But I do find them problematic and patronizing, so I am rigorously honest about that.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:40 PM
  # 75 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
"Bashing"? .. It's a viewpoint. Nobody is requiring anyone agree.
If the proponents of rational recovery were more secure in their beliefs they would not find it so necessary to attack AA at every turn. The fact that they do speaks volumes.
"Attacking" is also a viewpoint, awhuh1, but strictly speaking, if I were attacking, the tenor of my posts would be very different. That said, is it safe to assume that if you could get away with it, that you would probably shut down all criticism of AA? Or at the very least, that you object to any criticism? That speaks volumes in and of itself, does it not?
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:46 PM
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AA never bashes other recovery paths, or limited drinking paths, issues no opinions or critiques regarding them, never mentions them at all, never corrects what they may say about AA.

Classy, not the least bit critical or pissy about what other paths may pronounce as the true truth unlike any truth ever before discovered and of the utmost importance in the history of mankind. I do like that about AA.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:48 PM
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This is a great thread. The people that I've seen in AA who are successful (success defined as maintaining sobriety over a long-term period) all said that they had made up their minds to never drink again. So it seems to me that the successful folks in AA had made a Big Plan and on some level, do use AVRT whether they realize it or not. It also seems that having any sort of spiritual awakening is impossible while one is pouring booze down their gullet.
Makes me think that AVRT is what to use to stop and stay stopped. You can use AA and the 12 steps for group support/friendships and to change your way of living so that the things that once were impossible to deal with become possible.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:03 PM
  # 78 (permalink)  
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I'm actually finding this discussion to be very civil and quite helpful. Everyone recovers on their own path and I'm trying to find the best one for myself. To hear how others have achieved that is very useful and actually fascinating. There is a lot of knowledge and experience here and I'm grateful to be able to benefit from it.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:08 PM
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How can you debate without debating, there's another zen riddle.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:09 PM
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too many minds

Originally Posted by desertsong View Post
As some of you know, I'm back on the "sober train" after a relapse last week, followed by a medical detox in the hospital. Today is Day 6 for the umpteenth time. I've not given up hope but I do realize that I need to do some things differently if I'm going to succeed this time.

I've been attending AA for a couple of months and have made some wonderful friendships there and received a great deal of support. I've read the Big Book, the 12/12, and have worked steps 1-3. It has been eye-opening for me in a lot of ways and has taught me a great deal.

I've also been reading about Rational Recovery/AVRT and just ordered the book. A lot of the principles there also make sense to me.

I've heard that people have had success using both AA and RR, but I'm trying to wrap my head around that because they seem diametrically opposed to each other in many ways.

So I guess I'm just wondering if it is feasible/possible to do both? Why or why not? I realize some folks feel passionate about this and I'm not trying to start any arguments, but would appreciate an honest discussion about it, as I'm confused about what to do ... whether to stick with AA, drop AA and go with RR, or try to do both if they are somewhat compatible with each other and would be of help to me. Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.
TOO MANY MINDS!!! giving 100 o/o in one place may work better than 1 o/o in a 100 places. B willing to FOLLOW A FEW SIMPLE RULES
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